Jewish community complaint alters Fasching parades

I disagree with that. National days do little to really broaden anything. Those that are interested/educated already know.

Education is for the schools. Everybody should be taught what happened and the broader leasons for humanity of how these things happened, and continue to happen, throughout the world.

jamie, I don't have a problem with people wishing to have one day to mark the calculated murder of six million of their people just over 60 years ago. See my answer to Sinderbox below for more. Am I asking you or anybody else to do anything about commemorating the accidental deaths of a group of 23 athletes 50 years after it happened? A straight "Yes" or "No" answer will suffice.


Yes I can. Holocaust = Bad. In fact, very, very bad. Depending upon which source you choose to take the numbers from, somewhere between 16 and 26 million people died at the hands of the Nazis in concentration camps. Somewhere between 5 and 6 million were Jewish. Over 10 million were Slavs. I really do get Genie's a national day of remembrance of all victims of National Socialism because who has the rights to claim exclusivity over the rememberance of this level of suffering? I think it fair to comment that I believe myself to be very, very anti-Nazi, anti-fascist, in fact anti-any right wing tosh you can name, to the point of being very angry about it. I got The Holocaust, thank you. I understand the implications, thank you. I'm not going to be getting any ideas about building a concentration camp, thank you. It's ok to have The Holocaust served up for breakfast, but I don't want to be eating it for lunch, tea and dinner as well, thank you so very much. So if we're all going to be standing still and bowing our heads in rememberance on January 27th, then I for one will be casting my thoughts towards ALL victims of genocide, from the Amalekites and Midianites slaughtered by the Jews right the way up to Rwanda and Dafur.

Are we clear now, or am I going to get some idiot mumbling the 'anti-semetic' crap again? Cry wolf! Cry wolf! Cry wolf!

Nice, this sort of oh-so-subtle hint that the Jews got what they deserved.

By the way, how do you know the Jews slaughtered the Amalekites and the Midianites?

Interesting interpretation and defense.

I read that as nothing more than pointing out that there have been many attrocities done over the years by all groups. 'got what they deserved' is an interesting interpretation. Why did you say that?

That's bollocks and you know it, child. I'm merely demonstrating that we can all be bloody horrible, Germans, English (British, if you will... I won't) and Jews. Of course in your confused mind Genie, you only see it as something anti-semetic. When are you going to grow up?


That's a good question. I don't. I only have the old testament to go by.

No, you are not clear. Forgive me but I still do I not understand this sentence of yours:

"Why is it only a few of the more extremely mind-buggered jews that have brought this up?"

1) Why is it a problem for you that the President of the German Jewish Community brought this thing up?
2) And why you call her, who is legally representing the community as a whole, "only a few of the more extremely mind-buggered jews"?

I think it is a problem that she tried to flog a dead horse to get herself in the papers after the potential local issue had been effectively quickly and amicably solved.

I repeat what MonksTown just said. She's flogging a dead horse. We all know about The Holocaust. It was bad, OK? Now give it a fuckin' rest for a few moments, eh, because some of us didn't do it and ain't fuckin' guilty, OK? Like I said, it's ok for breakfast, but not all meals. You can play the sympathy card only so many times before it wears out.

Funny how the other victims of the Nazi regime never seem to get a mention either.

The problems of the world in one little thread.

One side interprets the others as anti-X and starts reading into things things that aren't there. The other side then forced to try and defend a position that isn't really there.

You seem to be blaming somone. Who is not doing his duty?

No, not blaming anyone, just a little reminder that there were fucking millions killed by the nazis who weren't jews, and who never seem to be remembered at all.

You are not repeating what MT said. MT dead horse is not your dead horse.

The President of the German Jewish Community called for properly respecting the German National Holocaust Remembrance Day.
If one day a year is too much for you contact your local representative.

In any case, she is not "only a few of the more extremely mind-buggered jews". She is the legal representative of all German Jews and doing her duty. You will have to swallow that even if you do not like it.

At all? Not in this thread and not on the 27th. As far as I know it is the National German day of Remembrance for all victims of Nazism.

But then what is "funny" and what does "either" refer to?

If she's entitled to her view, then surely MT and Sin are entitiled to theirs

MT and Sin are entitiled to their views. Full stop. No "if" needed.

A new remembrence day for the Holocaust was introduced by the German political class.

The news stories of the past few weeks have provided more than enough evidence that there are still issues off racism and intolerance in German society.
Rather than doing something about it, indeed the political class are often to blame for it, it is easier and cheaper to introduce a fairly meaningless day.
And Charley Garlic has another chance to get her name in the paper.

I'm not especially in favour of it; but it's there.
Any fule know that the way the calendar behaves, you can have conflicts with dates.
Another example is this years 1st May Workers Day Holiday that conflicts with some Christian thing.
I certainly don't expect punks in Berlin to stop throwing stones at the police just to keep Pope Ratbag happy.

Live and live. A potential issue was quickly and amicably dealt with but Garlic can't resist the temptation to get in the papers.
Again. And again. And again.

Fasching is a fun time. People enjoy life and frivolity and a sense of openess and togetherness.
It's a marked contrast to the individualised, distant introspectiveness of the Christian fasting season.
I take the Holocaust very seriously. But Fasching as well.

Well clearly Sinderbox, I meant funny as in 'isn't it fucking hilarious how millions of people were killed'. What else could I possibly have meant?

Your original line made no sence to me. That is why I asked. Specially with that "either" at the end. Like "in addition to". As if it was referring to something we said or we failed to mention.

Oh, I see things perfectly clear, and I never mentioned a word about anti-semitism. Or perhaps, in your confused mind, you only saw what I said as such?


What is this, random throwing of odd remarks like on the 6th grade playground? What are you going to tell me next, that your dad's bigger than mine?


Thought so.

I'm not sure if you read the thread or that this is too much to ask of you, but it was mentioned a few times that Jan 27th is a memorial day for all victims of National Socialism.

That is what the day is supposedly for, true.

But AFTER the local potential innapropriate situation was quickly and amicably avoided why didn't the Sinti and Roma groups,
the Slavic groups, the trade unionists, the Jehovahs Witnesses etc etc banging on about the issue?

Myself and MT share the same dead horse.


One day IS too much. I prefer to remember on a permanent basis rather than forgetting for a whole year at a time.


Sweetheart, I only swallow what I want to swallow unless it is Japanese, tastes of fish and makes me some money.


Are you sure?

If it is a rhetorical question, give us your answer,
If it is a true question, let's see what they answer you.

Cuz the Hare Krishnas stole all the drums.

Thanks Deck. That made me laugh for the first time today. Cheers!

No. You gave both altogether different reasons. I liked better MT's.

And I also have the right to hold my own views.
I view the rest of your answers not worth my comments.

Whether true or rhetorical I suspect the answer is the same: A potential issue was dealt with quickly and amicably and they didn't see the need (or have the contacts) to tout themselves around the media like Garlic does.

I am going to a Faschings Party on the 26th that's going to go WAY into the 27th.
Do I have to stop dancing at midnight and swap the costume for mourning gear?
The party is organised by one of the biggest gay organisations is Munich, "frightening" how they disregard the Holocaust, oder?

Oh, I'm all for the amicably and the quickly, but as this thread has clearly exposed, some people think even this is a violation of their right to drink on the streets whenever they want to. Perhaps the other groups didn't make to much noise because a. they're not as organized, b. they knew the Jewish community is and would take leadership in this issue, c. (especially the Sinti and Roma) are too ashamed of the situation they were put through because of the violation of their culture and d. maybe they don't know better?

I think a newly discovered and questionable memorial day should not neceassrily proscribe a long established pre-dated holiday season.

I think people SHOULD be allowed to drink on the streets whenever they want to.
Less respect for the political class and their "laws" and "appropriate behaviour" might have gone some of the way to preventing the Holocaust in the first place.

An appropriate compromise was gladly found. But that isn't enough for Knobloch. Nothing ever is.

My own suspicions tell me you are wrong. Genie came up with a short initial list.
I would prefer, as I said, to listen to them (the other groups) rather than follow your suspicions.

As I said, one of Munich's largest gay organisations is having their Fasching do that is going to run into the Sunday.
No complaints or handbags thrown in a strop so far.

I guess you have some personal issue with the lady that is blinding you.
You certainly know that your "Nothing ever is" can be proven wrong with easyness.

As I pointed out earlier, I object to the media whoring and professional victimhood of Stadtrat Thomas "Niederschwuchtel" as well.
So it's not just Knobloch.

Definitely!

The feeling is mutual. At last we can agree on something.

Now, the Association of Bavarian Jewish Communities is demanding that the Munich parade be rescheduled, stating that merely changing the route is not sufficient. Josef Schuster, head of the association, is also criticizing Ude, saying that his participating in the parade after a short commemorative event at the memorial makes the latter seem like an "unpleasant duty".

However, the official event at the monument will take place without Ude's participation on 25 January, this coming Friday.


Schuster pointed out that Regensburg proved itself flexible enough to reschedule their parade, but this accommodating gesture is costing the Lusticania dearly. Armin Ogurek, a spokesman for the Fasching society, confirms that of the original 64 participating groups 44 have cancelled their engagement. He further points out that all of the Fasching parades planned in the Rhineland are taking place on 27 January as scheduled.


source: Süddeutsche Zeitung e-paper 22 January 2008

Sarah, come on... we both know that Fasching parades are nothing common in Bavaria (except for Franken). Munich didn't have a parade till someone tried organising one 35 years ago. The parade was no success and the idea was dropped, but brought back to life again three years ago.

To compare the Rhineland parades with the ones in Bavaria is totally out of proportion! In Rhineland it's tradition, here it's another reason to get totally pissed and no more.

The annual Oktoberfest parade goes past there as well and of course (because it's a traditionial event) no one ever opposed to that thing.

Karneval/Fasching parades are nothing with whatsoever history in Munich, so bloody have it on another day.

The opinion within the Jewish Community seems to be divided. Marian Offman, its vice-president, will not be taking part in the parade and will be going to an event at the Staatsbibliothek in the evening instead. He is quoted as saying that "you cannot dictate to other people what they are to do on this specific day".


source: Süddeutsche Zeitung e-paper 23 January 2007

I would gladly link to the Community's offical program for the day but cannot find any information regarding time and location. If I find it I will post it under Events.

That's what's happening at the Staatsbibliothek. Has nothing to do with the community, it's organised by the district-council of Maxvorstadt, not the community.

Offman says he won't attend the parade, instead will go to a memorial lecture for the victims of the Nazi regime, but won't dictate other people what to do. I can't really see how he's supposed to be supporting the parade based on that statemant really...

As I said before. Munich has no whatsoever tradition on Fasching parades. The only reason for people to go there is another reason and excuse to get shitfaced. Does this need to be happening on a memorial day or couldn't it just happen on the main day of the festivities like in the Rhineland...? In Rhineland that's monday, in Bayern the Fasching day is tuesday. Why not have it on tuesday? Easy: not a single feckin person would attend it! Everyone is at Viktualienmarkt! There would be no turnover for those guys running it.

We need an excuse to get shitfaced?

Fuckin' Germans and their rules.

OK. Where do I go to apply for my Gettingshitfacedschein?

Nope, get shitfaced whenever you want, but since when do you need reason to do so.

It's a big pissup and I perfectly understand why people, who do commemorate the victims of a barbaric regime on that very day, do question the date of a officially organised drinking event (at first even taking place at and on the memorial site!), if the actuall day of the Fasching activities is two days later and there is no whatsoever tradition to the whole thing...

Any puritan and their troops, that would like to try and storm the Fasching party organised by one of Munich's largest gay charities
at 00:01 on Sunday, please feel free to contact this committed anti-fascist for the address details. Press will be in attendence.

MT... are you gonna have a parade? No. Are you gonna attract a couple of thousand people on a international memorial day? No. Are you trying to make profit without using the brain first? No. Did anyone from the community complain against your party? No. Does the largest gay charity in Munich have more tradition than that parade? Yes. What's your point?

The point?
Not everyone whose forebears in their community, who were also victims of the Holocaust, are such media whores as Charley Garlic.

I'm the LAST person to not be VERY sensitive on the issues; indeed I get called on here often enough for it.

The attempt to cast Ude; that he somehow finds recognition of the Holocasut as "lästig" is, quite frankly, FUCKING DISGUSTING!
It's a disgrace that certain supposed community leaders are prepared to scrape so low in the barrell to get themselves in the newspaper.

MT, I suggest taking a step back and separating the issue from the Jews you clearly dislike. On a tangentially related matter, since you claim to be a "committed anti-Fascist", make sure you are very careful who you call a "right-winger" especially given the pejorative connotation that label carries in Germany and Austria.

Josef Schmid, CSU candidate for mayor, will place a wreath at the monument on Friday, 25 January. Franz Maget, head of SPD Bavaria, will place a wreath at the monument for the victims of the Nazi regime at Ostfriedhof on 27 January and hold a speech. Both parties see this as a contribution against rightist radicals and neo-nazis. I don't know why Ude will not do the wreath thing instead of Maget.


source: Süddeutsche Zeitung e-paper 24 January 2008

You've tried calling me anti-semitic on here before Conq. and you failed to provide any evidence back then either.
I don't dislike Jews as a whole or individuals becasue they are Jewish.

What I dislike is the whipping up of a froth of publicity over an issue that was already amicably solved and people playing at being professional victims.

From the grapevine I hear that fascists will be coming from all over Germany for "politisches Aschermttwoch" now that there are TWO qualified lists of candidates from the far right for the city council elections. How we deal with that as a multi-faceted community and what we plan to do if those two lists get any councillors elected (not unlikely) are in my mind, more important issues now than an unintended clash of dates that you get with a moveable calendar.

There is currently a "sleep in" protest going on at Marienplatz.
It's against proposals from Germany's conservative politicians for "boot camps" for young offenders.

Now they have two allowed lists, the fascists feel confident.
The "sleep-in" was threatened this evening by them, they said they are going to come back.

A German colleague of mine pulled me up at work a couple of weeks ago for using the term "boot camps".
He said I could better use the original German phrase. "Straflager".

We as Münchners have real challenges over the next few weeks. And possibly years.

Read very carefully how I phrased it just above, MT. You do dislike Frau Knoblauch and at least some other Jews, don't you? That is obvious, hence the reference to "the Jews you dislike". This is advice that would also serve you well within other contexts. Bear in mind your comments on Israel. I fail to see how they could not be interpreted as disliking Jews as a whole, given their tenor and nature.

MT, you know as well as anyone you whip up issues of victimization all the time, apparently just not ones where Jews are the victims.

The issue raised by the parade does remind us of the dangers posed by extremist candidates, so in that sense Frau Knoblauch and others have provided a public service and have aided your own campaign against the extremists. You really should be reaching out to Jews rather than denouncing them.

On the issue of violent youthful offenders, what is the MonksTown proposal for dealing with them?