Buried WWII bomb found on new tram 23 line

Bombing of Dresden in World War II ...

" ... It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed ... "

So because his country started the war he is now not allowed to share the history of the church? My goodness how people get wrapped up in silly things.

Oh, was that what he was doing? So was he telling them about how the church was built, who commissioned it and which important people served as priests in it at whatever times?

No. It sounds to me like he identified the nationality of the said group and used this to launch a nationalistic attack on the nation he holds responsible for damaging his church during the war. Which to me is audacious.

I never said he's not allowed to share his personal experiences in the war, or this history of his church, or whatever. I was merely pointing out that blaming another nation for damages to his country in a war that it started is like trying to rob somebody at knife-point and running to mommy to complain when he pulls out a gun.

@ miwild: first, note the date of that memoir. The war was basically over at that time. Second, what I said wasn't justifying indiscriminate bombing of clearly civilian targets. But I think you lose the right to complain about it when your county does the same.

Oh the poor, poor Germans. There they were, minding their own business...

See things were built to last in Britain in them days

ok, that may have been a bit harsh, so edit...

Did they get 1&1?. The bastards ripped me off once

Turns out that it was German Wertarbeit, a cluster bomb to be precise.


(Süddeutsche Zeitung e-paper 11 January 2008)


Hoist, as it were, by their own pétard.

Well, it was, most definitely, detonated because I heard the explosion.
So, it was a German bomb. How interesting.

OK, got this from my colleagues from the police website:

"eine 10 kg-Splitterbombe aus dem Zweiten Weltkrieg."

Here is the whole police report

You got all that from this simple statement: "the priest decided to talk to our group personally... he told us that the british were responsible for bombing the church."

You're a troubled person.

Sarabyrd,

Where did you see that it was a German bomb? Why would it be a German bomb? Just curious. All my colleagues say 'oh, no, no, it wasn't German'. I could not open your link to where you read this.

The article isn't online, only in the e-paper option.

That's a little ironic coming from you. So the deliberate targeting of German civilians in WWII is acceptable, because "they started it", yet the situation in Iraq where there is no "strategic bombing" and civilian deaths are a fraction of what they were in Germany during WWII have made you feel the need to write dozens of outraged posts on the issue. What gives here?

Yes, you're right, I'm a troubled person. It troubles me that someone blames the British, who didn't want this war, didn't start it and were basically doing a huge huge favor to the rest of Europe when they didn't accept the Nazi's truce offers in 1942, with the damages inflicted on Germany in WWII. If it doesn't disturb you, then I question your morality, or your knowledge of history. Or both.

You need therepy! Someone tells you who did the bombing and you go off on one. You weren't there so you have no idea how it was said, but carry on with your own private madness.

You must be joking ...

Britain declared war on Germany, not the other way round ... preceded and followed by several "huge favours" to the rest of Europe, concocted in Tehran, Yalta and elsewhere

So let me get this right, miwild: Britain started the war with Germany? Had it not been for the British, there would be no WWII?

And yes, about Western Betrayal, I have stated my opinion about Chamberlain and Chamberlainism multiple times in this forum. I believe he is responsible for making the war harder and longer, including how much Germany was ruined, than it would have been had he not signed off the Sudetenland to Hitler's peace of shit. Yalta had nothing to do with the damages inflicted on Germany.

Truce offers in 1942?? You fucking what? I think you should question your own knowledge of history - because it's quite badly wrong. All the priest did was say that it was a British bomb that hit the church? So fucking what?

But with the "huge huge favours to the rest of Europe" ... didn´t it ?

1940, sorry, my mistake.

to clarify on my initial post, i was discussing the destruction/re-construction photos in the entrance of the frauenkirche and as the group was about to leave the spot, the priest came up to talk with us. he wasn't being malicious or rude towards the british, but was merely attempting to clarify the photos in the entrance. the group found it very interesting and those that were british were not insulted... people come to munich to learn about history and the priest was elaborating on what i had already explained. had he said it in a different manner, i may have been offended and had i thought such a simple story needed a long description, i would have given it initially.

point of original story? the british came closer to munich than pasing. full stop.

Based on this police report and the thoughts that it may have been a German cluster bomb, I can only think of this one that the Germans used in WW2. But why would they bomb their own city? Each bomblet is 2kg, the minimum in a bomb was 6, that would make 12kg worth of bomblets in a case weighing about 3kg or so.

I don't know what the Brits dropped down there, but I'm fairly certain that the US "only" did carpet bombing with 500 pounders and 250 pounders. Notice the waves in the countryside between Landshut and Ingoldstadt, those were 500 pounders.

You have GOT to be kidding me. What next, that the British shouldn't have done anything and let the Nazis just carry on through Poland, the Low Countries, France? Fuck off Fritzy, you lost.

@Genie - you mean Hess' flight, presumably? Still nobody sure how much Adolf knew about that - not much probably.

As to Munich being hit - yes, by the US and Britain - about 90 raids all-in-all if memory serves, Munich was well within range - probably little more than 1400miles as the crow flies from Cambridgeshire - I'm pretty sure Berlin is quite a bit further.

Secondly - cluster bombs - bit of a loose definition. Incendiray bombs were dropped in large cannisters that broke open in mid-air dropping the smaller incendiaries, though these were only 10lb I think. The larger 20lb incendaries were dropped, I think, individually and not in cannisters, though I'm not sure. Britain and the USA dropped a mix of bombs weighing between about 5kg right up to about 8000kg or more. 500lb bombs were generally considered 'GP' - General Purpose high explosive bombs, big enough to destroy a house or two. The RAF and US mixed the loads regularly depending on the nature of the target.

And yes, the RAF firebombed Dresden on the night of 13/14, the USAF arrived in the morning of 14th to hit the town again. Some witness statements claim that P47/P51 escort aircraft descended to low level and strafed columns of refugees fleeing the ruins. These reports are disputed.

No, you're right about that, it wasn't an official move that one, was it? I thought it was more of a personal initiative of Hess'.

I was talking about the speech Hitler gave i think on 19 July, 1940.

I should think they are disputed - I wouldn't have thought that they would have the range to provide fighter escort all the way to Dresden and back.

They are all about the same distance, somewhere around 1000km. To be hoest I would have thought Berlin was much further as well, but if you look at the map you could draw a circle from cambridge and it would go through just about all 3.

Stansted -> Munich is 910Km so the 1400 miles above would be round trip. Suicide bombing hadn't been invented back then.

Didn't most of the bombing runs into what is east Germany geographically come out bases in Italy? Maybe I am mixing that up with the bombing of eastern Europe...

P51 had a range of about 1600 miles with drop tanks - easily enough to reach Dresden


A lot did - especially those attacking targets in the East of the 'Greater Reich' - so Romania (Ploetsi raid was from Italy I think). The Dresden raid was launched from England.

I wonder where the raids on the airfield at Oberschleissheim originated? It was bombed regularly and repaired by detainees from Dachau.

What's that in the top of the shot? Looks like a schloss and its gardens? (I don't know Oberschleissheim at all). Interesting photo - you can make out some individual sticks of bombs (it would seem), judging by the straight lines - most aircraft bombed from bottom right to top left (or vice versa).

Here it is now.

It's about 12 km north of Munich city centre, the aviation museum there is fascinating. Brief history of the airfield here.

Ah - yet another place in and around MUC that I've still not visited - I will get around to it though. Luckily I live near Duxford - love going up there once in a while for a poke around. I really need to get a life.

Banzaii!!!

The problem here is how this statement was worded and of course that a representative of the Catholic Church felt obliged to tell a tour group about the destruction of one of their churches in such a manner. To say that the British were responsible for the bombing - this term is loaded with meaning. And to hear this coming from a Catholic priest brings up even more questions. This is a classic example of the so-called "myth of victimization", a constructed social myth used to deal with painful realities and guilt at the beginning of the West German state, unfortunately you can still hear echoes of this myth today and some would even claim a resurgence.

The myth that the German Catholics and Protestants were as much victims of the Nazis as Jews were is an attempt to abuse a sort of grey area. It is an absolute fact that Catholics and Protestants, priests, clergy and lay people were arrested, interned and murdered by the Nazi regime. Conversely the Catholic and Protestant hierarchies, who were fully aware of the destruction massive amounts of lives, remained silent at best, but went so far as to recognize, and hence legitimize, this regime by signing deals with it.

The silence and collaboration of the churches during this time has not been discussed enough since 1945. This priest at the Frauenkirche should explain to visitors why the alter remained silent about the obvious failure of humanity all over Germany. Why they remained silent about the arrests of brave outspoken individual priests. Why they reamined silent about genocide.

They had plenty of time to speak out - the church wasn't hit until 1944!

Blessed Clemens August Graf von Galen (March 16, 1878 – March 22, 1946) was a German count, Bishop of Münster, and Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church. An outspoken critic of the Nazi regime, he issued forceful, public denunciations of the Third Reich's euthanasia programs and persecution of the Catholic Church, making him one of the most visible and unrelenting internal voices of dissent against the Nazis ...

Okay that's a nice example of what I just pointed out - he was an individual speaking out from within a silent church. Does his bravery excuse, for example, the Roman Catholic hierarchy for signing the Reichskonkordat of 1933 which helped to legitimize Adolf Hitler internationally?
One question about Von Galen himself - why did he not speak out about what was happening to the Jews, Homosexuals, Roma, Sinti, Jehovahs Witnesses, Communists or Socialists? Or in other words any one not from what he considered his own flock?

those who lived through it will tell you the British bombed by day --the americans at night.
66 heavy air raids on the city starting 8-9 november 1940.

the heaviest attacks came in 1944. April 25 and then on July 11, 12, 13, 15 and 18. december 17 and January 7, 1945. 6300 dead. 12,000 injured. 500,000 homeless. 1/6th of all buildings in the city were destroyed. most badly hit areas were Altstadt, schwabing West, and the area north of the Hauptbahnhof. Considering the thousands of tons of bombs dumped on the city it is not surprising that unexploded ordinance continues to turn up.
They had to find a place to dump all of the rubble and chose the airport at Oberwiesenfeld. The mountain overlooking Olympic stadium is made up entirely olf World War II rubble.

Actually it was the British who flew night sorties, while the Americans bombed during the day.

The twin campaigns—the USAAF by day, the RAF by night—built up into massive bombing of German industrial areas

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bom...ng_World_War_II

Have you never seen the Dam Busters, sir?!

correction noted.
As you know, the "Dam Buster" raid took place a long way from Munich. A semi-successful night raid on the Moehne, Eder and Sorpe Dams in the Ruhr. The Moehne Dam was breached causing severe flooding and killing over 1,000 including 600 east european slave labourers. Industrial production was not affected in the long term. The Eder Dam was also breached with flood waters reaching the city of Kassel (noted for arms production). however recovery was quick. the most important dam...the Sorpe was not breached.

If you read Paul Brickhill's excellant World War histories (such as "Dam Busters" and "The Great Escape") the main effect was in morale (both on the allied and the German side) and mainpower. Thousands of workers who could have been used elsewhere in the German war effort had to be employed to clean up the mess created by the floodwaters.

Plus it has one of the finest theme tunes in history

There was another bomb found at the former site of the Löwenbräu brewery. After the agro on this thread, however, its nationality was not disclosed.

t'was a US one.
& I got stuck in the traffic for this one

I was nearly late for the quiz because of it as well after the taxi got stuch in traffic and had to find a different route to the Arc.

They sat around reminiscing while the firemen passed the beer.

Here's a picture of the pesky little thing being carted away. Our office is next door to the construction site.

Not really, gills.


Besides, it was dark by the time they were done with it.

@Gills - where did you find this picture. If they found the bomb at 17:50, it was dark and presumably it was still dark when the carted it away. Do you mean 'a bomb like this one'?