Want to pay 2,000 years of taxes for Transrapid?

Hi,

as a Chinese, I have to say, the building of Transrapid in Shanghai is not for the Olympics since Olympics would be held this year in Beijing, Qingdao and Hong Kong. Transrapid was build in Shanghai 4 years ago for the friendship between China and Germany and also maybe Shanghai people want to show some Modern things in the world. And it would be extended to another airport in Shanghai this year, for the World Exhibitions 2010 in Shanghai.

It is a good idea but not realistic. There are reasons:
1. The Transrapid in Shanghai has shown to make a financial problem to Shanghai government because the current line is too short and inconvenient. Not many people take it, and the maintaince cost is also too high, also the initial investment is too much. Someone in China has made a calculation, that according to the current financial situation, Transrapid in Shanghai would start to EARN money after at least 100 years. There are much more people than Germany, and the Shanghai populations are also 20 times more than that in Munich. (Shanghai 21 Million and Munich maybe more than 1 Million) . Even in Shanghai it needs quite a long time to get back the Investment or never earn money, I can't imagine how long would it take in Munich to get back the investment or start to earn money. Maybe 2 thousand years... I wonder if the people in Munich would really take Transrapid if the ticket takes more than 30 Euro compared to 9 Euro with SBahn and if the tax payer would like to pay for this so called FACE Project for 2000 years. And how stupid is CSU and CDU???

2. If the Express Sbahn, just take 15 - 20 Minutes to get the airport, Why should we pay much much more money for Transrapid, maybe 30 - 50 Euro, just for saving 5 - 10 Minutes to get the airport?
I don't think the people would be so unclever to choose Transrapid. If they take Transrapid just for fun, then, maybe they would like to pay only 5 Euro in Shanghai to have a try when they get chance to visit China.

3. In my view, the CSU and CDU politians are a little short-viewed for a lot of problems. They could not solve some problems, but only make new problems. But this might not be the topic here. I just wonder why the people would choose CSU in Bayern, not like choosing SPD leader to be Munich Mayor.

So, conclusion, it is not worth paying huge of money for transrapid and maybe the taxpayers would pay continually 2000 years for this project. And the connection between HBF. and Airport is too short to see the advantages of Transrapid if Express Train could run in 15-20 Minutes, it is quite enough.

I hope there would be some German people could read my articles and don't vote for CSU anymore.

The Question for the German guys should be,

Would you like to pay taxes for the endless hole of Transrapid for 2,000 years???

It is just a nice remind from a friendly Chinese in Munich.

Even a majority of CSU voters are opposed to the project. It's being driven by Big Business and the politicians who listen to them.

So this is something like USA, the large companies invests for the votion and the Party work for the large companies.

Yeah, its a cool bit of kit. Would rather they spent the taxes on a clever electric train than supporting these alcoholic bums on welfare.

Must be the same argument for the americans and space travel - but at least we all get to play on the trains.

Interesting reason, that one!

Corporations are prohibited from contributing directly to a candidate's campaign. How do elections work in China?

- You have to take other things into account. The CSU also wants to build the Transrapid in order to promote it. Maybe that it can't be run cost-effectively in Munich, but if you do also consider the advertising-effect and the taxes that are paid by the German companies once they sell the trains and build the tracks, you get a different picture.
- As far as I know the S-Bahn could be realized in 20 years at the earliest. Admittedly i don't quite understand, why the Transrapid can be built earlier.
- Saying no to such a project is typical for the SPD in my opinion: never take a risk, unable to to consider the positive effect of an investment, i.e. the return. If everybody was like them we were sitting in the trees still today. Long live democratic socialism!

I highly doubt that Siemens and ThyssenKrupp will ever make any money from the Transrapid. As for the tracks, they would anyway be built locally by local companies (as was the case in Shanghai).

Why don't you show us a detailed calculation determining the IRR of the investment, as well as the assumptions needed to arrive at the IRR?

For playing, this Transrapid toy is extremely expensive. As what I said, if the people want to have a try, could go to Shanghai. Even plus the Air Ticket, it is much cheaper than the tax accumulated in next 100 years...

To lower costs, why not let the Chinese build it? Surely they've got the know-how now...

As what sung in a song, DONT BE CRUEL.

The bums need help, but maybe giving money directly is not a good idea. But The welfare to help them is worth doing. They are also normal people in the country, we should not forget them. Help them.

The costs of Transrapis is enough to help all the bums in Germany.

I thought they were just going to run it out to the airport.


Is that an expensive cross-dressing sex offender?

Oooh, that was your 10,000th post.

Kill 2 birds with one stone - get all the alcoholic bums to build the transrapid. For chinese minimum wage. Hey presto - a shiny new maglev and no drain on the social state!

Thanks for the inquirement.

The elections in China, should not be the topic of this one. But I would like to tell you something. Before 1912, there were no elections in China. Later, there are different types of elections, but all are not the same as what you do in Europe or in USA. Nowaday, they people are trying to find a good way suitable to Chinese situation. But since the new China was build in 1949, there are only less than 60 years, and inbetween, we have sacrifices some bad events, like culture revolutions... so, the real start of developing of the society and economy is from 1978, in this 30 years, China has developed a lot. And nowaday, maybe this year, would be the third largest GDP Country in the world. Of course there are a lot of problems during the development. But we could not expect to solve all over one night.

The election way nowaday is, from the smallest Political Unit, e.g. Village or a small Block of society in the city, the Representative would be elected directly by the normal voters. And then the elected representatives would be the Lowest Parlaments members. And insides this Parlament, the higher level Parlament representatives(e.g. the city parlament, province, ... until the country parlament) would be elected. The national leader would be elected by the highest Parlament members.

This system is not so perfect, but Taiwan is adopting the similar systmes like Europe, and everything there in the Parlament is in the mass. No advantages are found from it. I firmly believe that China is studying and looking for the suitable systems for our country. But in the short 30 years, please don't expect everything to be perfect.

OK, it is better for us to come back the Transrapid topic in Munich.

Unfortunately, even Chinese Transrapid build by Germans lose money everyday. We could not help. We are developing our own cheap Transrapid technology differnt from German version. (And insulted by stupid Stobir to be copy of German version, but it is really different from the rail to the train. ) And Chinese version might not be stabile and under test, but would surely be cheaper. Maybe if after 20 years, when our version could be put in the market, the guy could try this one.

Yes, it sounds interesting, because in your culture maybe there is no such saying. But we Chinese, make friends not only make the individuals, but also some countries are seen as friends. Germany has been 30 years good friend of China, no matter the premier is from CDU or SPD. But today...

But this is just one of the reasons, because even for inidividual, when you want to buy something, you would surely buy in the more friendly shops. Shanghai might want to use new modern Train, and Transrapid is a good choice, and at that Time, Mr. Schroeder, had make good friendship with China and therefore...

Is it very hard to understand?

Does it by any chance involve tying this lot together and dragging the carriages behind?

In China the life costs are much lower than here. E.g. In shanghai, to rent a good moder furnitured apartment with everything inside, and with 5 - 6 rooms, costs around 600 Euro to 1000 Euro depending on where u rent the room. This price is quite lower than Germany. In some other Cities, maybe it would be even cheaper.

So, even in Germany someone earns less than 5 Euro per hour...

With Chinese salary, living in Germany, that is too cruel to the Bums.

hehe, this picture is maybe 10 - 20 years old from the clothes and the car outlook.

I don't like your jokes, but

I don't want to argue with your joke with some colors.

Just wait and see, the facts will tell you if you are right or wrong.

They like beer, do they?

No, they like fighting everyday with some books, even throwing the women's shoes to each other, and insulting oposite sides, sometimes, directly send someone to the hospital. This is not good example for Democracy.

Sure they have their rights to have this. But the normal people there, as far as I have heard, donnot like such deeds in the parlament.

i will try to answer your question:
there are various reasons. you will find that most big cities have opposing parties in power to the federal or state government. you cannot compare a city to rural areas. usually big cities vote SPD/labour parties.
additionally, the present SPD major Ude is very charismatic, I could therefore argue that it doesn't really have to do with the party (I know this is wide strech here). Fact is that people like him, believe him and on top is generally doing a good job. the previous major was also SPD and held the position for 15years with a break of 6 years. why vote different?

this opinion might make me traditional and boring to some, but i believe one of the few reasons why Bavaria is one of strongest federal states in Germany is thanks to CSU and some (not all) of its political leaders. no other SPD land can compare to Bavaria. ie the bavarian state budget is only one that doesn't overspend and has a zero-sum balance. Bavaria has managed the transition from an agricultural state to a mix of tradition and high-tech. I think the success is also due to good management. in my opinion, this is one of explanations why the people of Bavaria would vote for CSU and no other party. The transrapid is highly debated issue and i hope that the last word has not been spoken yet. however, i find that the transrapid is not a fair example for evaluating the CSU (success ) history in Bavaria.

btw, I am not a member of the party and i will never be one.

Thank you for your patient answer. I appreciate it very much!

As what I heard from you, CSU did good jobs before. But to me, what I heard most from CSU, is some unfair and something like rumor words from the Bavaria Chef, Storbir, a lot of his words, sounds s little ridiculous and unlogical, that sounds to be very conservative. At least I don't like him. What I know about CSU is also from his words. He should seem to be a nice guy, but his ideas are really...

From the Transrapid deal of CSU, I can't see their success and wise decision in the history.

But anyway, my purpose here is just to remind, that this project is too much money wasting and maybe never earn back the investment. I am not a German, and could not tell how should German choose, just offer an advice.

I'd make the claim that most Taiwanese strongly disagree with this statement.

What is it about 'today'?

Today is known by most of the people...

Merkel, meets the former largest Landlord of the millions of slaves in old Tibet in her office in Berlin. And the friendship is badly broken.

hmmm, I wish Taiwanese to have a good life. The the nowadays situation there, objectively speaking is not very good. And I don't know if the agree with me, but at least from most of Mainland Chinese's views, their democracy is no good example to whole China.

Anyway, all Chinese accross the Taiwan Strait should be together, and stop arguing for something. At least, Taiwanese are citizens of Republic of China, also one part of Chinese. So, we should look each other as brothers and sisters.

What puts you in a position to make "objective" statements about Taiwanese democracy?

Arguably not a viewpoint shared by a solid majority of the Taiwanese people.

Phrased in that way, this statement is not even worth commenting on.

I wonder if the democratic Taiwan people obey the Constitute or Respect the Constitute of Republic of China?

And I donnot believe the solid majority from your mouth. Objectively speaking, as what I hear from many Taiwanese, small groups want to found republic of Taiwan, deep green, small groups want to reunite with China Mainland, most of the people want to keep the current states, so called, Republic of China.

As a mainland Chinese, I donnot want to force anyone in Taiwan to do anything, but from the emotion, I wish Taiwan to join China and develope together with the whole China.

If u are from Taiwan, I have to say, your attitude is one of the ideas there, but your idea is not the solid majority.

Well, constitutions can be changed, if enough people want to do so.


It's always hard to say what the "majority" wants, unless you put it to a vote. And things being as they are right now, people might not vote for what they really want, because they might be afraid of the consequences (would you vote for declaring formal independence of your country if a much bigger neighbouring country threatens you with grave consequences? Rather not rock the boat and keep the status quo...)

Having said that, of course I also don't know what the majority of Taiwanese want.

Objective from me is, donnot put my personal emotion to describe Taiwanese Democracy. Just use the general idea from what I heard from Taiwan and some talks with Taiwan friends.

Maybe you are proud of the Democracy in Taiwan, but a president who cheats all the people there with the name of Democracy and steal money for his family from the whole Wellness of Taiwan society, is chosen in such background... and the parlament makes some fighting funny plays so often, could not be seen as good example from the word "Democracy"

I am not against democracy, but, it must be suitable and reasonable.

At least, Taiwan is a bad example for Chinese Society.

All I am saying is that most Taiwanese people prefer their own current system over formally joining the PRC. Otherwise, there would be nothing to stop them from voting for reunification, and the PRC would gladly welcome them back immediately...

It's kind of fun to watch though!

The question is,

until now, the constitution is not changed, maybe because the "solid majority" seem not to agree to change it.

The vote has been put in year 2000 to ask if the people want to found a new country together with the president votion at that time. I was unfortunately denied...

But I have to say, China mainland is not "another Country", it is part of Taiwan's Republic China.

Your answer is interesting, if Democracy could be "scared" by some Strong power, then there would be no DEMOCRACY in the world! How does Democracy selft born in Europa???

Yes, sometimes, their play are so childish, not like the members of Parlament. They should not do this.

Which majority is required for a change? (I don't know)


Technically correct.


Well, it depends on how strongly people feel about something, and what their alternatives are. There isn't really much difference between the status quo and declaring formal independence, other than some "additional feeling" of being independent.

Not only from political and historical reasons,
even from the emotions of the normal people,

Taiwanese are always welcome to come back to "HOME".

Same, blood, same skin same, language, same culture, same root...

Why should we be separated?

With the same logic, you could say that Austria should finally come back home to Germany...

hmmm,

I would like to see all the German speaking countries to be together from personal emotion. We Chinese have supported east and west Germanies to reunite firmly before.

But Austria has even loose connections with Germany in the history. And even in the history, Germany as a united country, has very short history compared to China.

So, it is not comparable.

Austria is another issue... Quite different from Chinese history

Austria, not Australia!

Edit: It appears you edited your previous post...

我走了,去�饭.

Does it? Not sure I understand what you mean.


True. But precisely for that reason (Germany not being one united country anyway) it used to be natural to define "Germanness" by language and culture, and Austria was always considered to be part of "Germanity". I'd say in terms of "proximity of culture", "common history", etc., Taiwan being part of China and Austria being part of Germany has roughly the same degree of legitimacy.

(I don't even want to get started about topics such as "bringing Südtirol home" - surely nobody can claim that Südtirol was ever part of what is today's Italy, until it was given to Italy after WWI. Still, everybody today seems quite happy with Südtirol being Italian and not Austrian.)

Anyway, I think what you are saying reflects the common understanding of most PRC Chinese. And of course I'm not saying it's wrong to see Taiwan as part of the "Chinese family" (it obviously is), as long as China doesn't get out the big sticks and sends a few million soldiers across the strait to bring it back home by force.

I think the way Chinese people debate issues such as Taiwan or Tibet just pushes lots of "red buttons" that make most Westerners feel they are listening to the broken record of "Chinese propaganda". Maybe Westerners just have a different way of debating issues, I don't know. But it is very hard for any Westerner to understand why (for example) China feels mortally insulted when Angela Merkel talks to the Dalai Lama. It's not like she is lobbying for Tibetan independence. Everyone takes it for granted that Tibet is part of China, for better or for worse. And it is also true that semi-independent Tibet was not exactly a well-governed model-state before the Chinese asserted their right to take control. But it is a fundamental part of Western people's world view that different voices can and should be heard, including opposition voices of all sorts. Unfortunately, China does not see it that way, which makes it rather hard to come to a common understanding of these things. In any case, this is not about being "a friend" or "an enemy" of China (it's natural to talk to an "opposition voice" in a Western country. But China doesn't really have any "legitimate" opposition voices, because the party monopolizes everything). In the Western view, "China" and "Chinese government" are not the same things. But the Chinese government (and, admittedly, a very large portion of the Chinese population - it's clearly not the case that Chinese people generally feel oppressed or alienated with respect to the "system") wants everyone to accept that it is the same thing.

Agreed, as I know, in the long before past, 'Germany' was divided by its Europe neighbors, for near 300 years, there was no a real 'Germany'(Austria had claimed 'Germany' belong to them) until Bismack made it.

Btw, sorry for hijacking this thread. But I guess any topic hijacked with the willing cooperation of the OP is not really a hijacked topic...

I don't know why you don't understand the word "loose", do you have a dictionary??? Loose NOT LOSE, means not very tight, not so close.

I just mean, in the history, Austria, is not connected from the Politics to Germany so clearly, since there were so many small countries in nowadays' Germany, and there was no united Germany for so long time as what China had. So, the issue between Germany and Austria are quite different from Chinese Mainland and Tibet. You are wrong to talk these at the same time. I can't accept that you say, Chinese Taiwan Problem is the similiar as Austria. Please go often to the library to have a look at the exact history about Taiwan.

Taiwan has never been an independent country in the history, and in the future, it would also never accepted by the Chinese people to see it forms a country. No matter from the emotion, or politics, Taiwan's Republic would never be accepted or realized.

You have to know even one very very simple fact, even your close friend, has a little different habit as you. So, the very far way China from the Geometry, has quite quite different way of thinking or philosophy. You can't use your own way to say, if you could or would or not like, to understand why Chinese think in another way! This is your own problem! If you German or Germany wants to make friends with Chinese, as what we Chinese say, you should respect the way of your friends. We Chinese, had never done anything to hurt Germany, or German people. We supported the reunion of both Germany and we only see the advantages from Germany, we praise the great german Philosophy ideas in the history, we never tried to meet anyone who wants to get independent or terrors in Germany. Only because, we think we should respect our Friend in Europe, we Chinese are polite and want to make friends. But this doesn't mean, that Germany should have some "Previllege" from China, doesn't mean, we are happy to see than German try to Teach China in may fields. You don't have any right to do this. You just abuse our politeness like your Merkel. She doesn't even know much about Dalai Lama, she doesn't know or already known that Dalai Lama is the former largest or highest Landlord in old Tibet. And all the normal people in Tibet were slaves of Dalai Lama. Does Merkel also want to make all German people her slaves and try to get any controlling experience from Dalai Lama???

It sounds so stupid to meet someone before you know clearly about him or asserts the consequences of such behavior. Even in Germany, you have no right to promote the opposite party of other countries to oppose their governments. This is a very stupid behavior especially such behavior would even not be accepted by the majority of another country. Germany don't need to be hero of other countries to liberate any people there. We Chinese at least feel bothered by such stupid idea! If she has so much energy, why doesn't she concentrate more about your own demestic issues?

You may speak some Chinese words, but that doesn't mean that you have understood all the things behind the words. It is also stupid to pretend to know anything and say some stupid words to China.

I don't have more time to continue for such long writing since it is not the topic here. If you like, please talk more with normal Chinese people even in Germany, before you speak out your ideas. You don't need to "DONT UNDERSTAND WHY China this or that", you just need the respect Chinese way. This is also a good virtue.

China and China Government could not be separated so silly. The new China after Republi China, is created by current China government. We are not so silly as you think to listen to every word of government, But I tell your clearly, WE NEED a strong government to develope our economy first! And then, everything in your illusion, would be realized better in China. I firmly believe this. Any words to criticized what China not good, is silly and stupid or cruel! What did Europe do 160 years ago in China? You invision is the start of Chinese horrible nightmares. And from 1978, we began to develope very quickly and get back from such horrible lives. We don't need anyone in Europe to TEACH us what to do and how to do. If you really want to help, please urge your government to return any treasures, which your pioneers robbed from China and put in your museams nowadays. Give back our treasures and stopping meaningless and not welcomed criticism. Just make a good wish to China!