Xenophobic reaction to the Arabella U-Bahn attack

A depressingly predictable aspect of this incident (Junge Raucher schlagen Rentner brutal zusammen) is the racist reaction to it: "Innenminister will U-Bahn-Schläger ausweisen". They are immediately tagged as East European, Greek, or Turkish, and the Interior Minister expresses regret that he can't send the Greek back because he's an EU citizen.

Back where? They live here. They were probably born and bred here. They are German and this is a German problem. This denial on grounds of blood is absurd and divisive.

It's the same thing when Germans commit something similar. They are labelled neonazis or left-wing extremists. Anything, just so long as they are not German. Is it just me, or do all WWII crimes now seem to have been committed by Nazis rather than Germans?

Topical smoking angle to this story.

Is it me or are you slightly racist yourself?

BTW, one is Greek and the other Turkish (17 and 20 yo respectively) and they nearly killed the old lady.

Our sympathies should be with the victim. I have no sympathy for violent criminals who assault an elderly man and then steal from him. If you really want to get down to it, it is not a secret that if you are not the citizen of an EU Member State you can be deported if you commit a violent crime. To complain about that policy after committing such a brutal crime is absolutely pathetic.

At any rate, even citizens of EU Member States can be deported in certain circumstances.

Branded as Turkish, huh? Does that mean he has to wear a yellow armband with a crescent moon? He is Turkish and the media is allowed to say so, same way they are allowed to say that the victim is German.
Both of these guys you seem to feel so sorry for because they may lose their right to reside in Germany have a rap sheet as long as your arm, according to the radio news. Bodily harm, drug trafficking, theft etc. Seems that they don't respect the laws of their host country and now the law is turning on them with a vengance. Tough luck.

Irrespective of deportation, I think they should be locked up for a (good) while first.

Or serve their terms in their native countries - or countries of origin if they were born here. Remember how sorry everyone felt for Marco being stuck in a Turkish jail? How they insisted he has a right to be locked up in his own country? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I vote they go to jail after first getting a good kicking.

Mmmmm ... turkish prison.

er because the crimes WERE committed by Nazis, many of whom, including Hitler himself, were not German.

And many of their victims, ie millions of people, were Germans themselves.

You mean Lord Haw Haw wasn't German?

By the way, the victim was a guy. Doesn't make the crime less heinous, just me being a [/pedant].
According to the younger of the two culprits, the 17-year-old Greek, the whole incident is the victim's fault. He had pointed out the smoking ban in the U-Bahn coaches to the two young, drunk, drugged-up men. "Why the f*** did he bug he, he must have seen that we were drunk. Everyone is aggressive when they're drunk", says the country's future. Repentance, guilt, contrition - zilch.


Besides being foreigners, at least the Greek seems to be pretty damned stupid. They had taken a cell phone off a casual acquaintance earlier that evening, the 17-year-old called a friend, kicked the cell phone owner and told the guy on the other end of the line, "Listen to me killing a German!"


That call and others were, of course, traced along with the theif.
The DA is trying both for attempted murder, the younger man (?, my fingers refuse to grace him with that noun, hoodlum springs to mind) faces up to ten years in prison. His friend, who is twenty, may be tried under juvenile law, depending on his mental maturity (geistige Reife). If, however, he is tried under adult law he faces life in prison. Now, OP mic, do you really want to spend your hard-earned tax money on keeping a hardened criminal in jail until he's 60, or would you rather see the back of him direction Istanbul?

well, then we would have alot more fights and issues around the Fest time wouldn't we if that was true.

Wasn´t Butcher Harris a German war criminal from Hamburg or Dresden ?

And that has just what to do with this topic?

Deport them both.Get rid.After all Turks do not even eat bacon so get rid of em

I've seen a similar situation. An old and obviously rather infirm guy quite diplomatically asking a young teenaged couple (he Turkish, she sleazy German) on a date not to smoke-- it was a delayed train and a very long wait, and they were both chain smoking and basically being loud and obnoxious even before being asked to smoke elsewhere. They were awful to him: they're helping him die faster and get out of his miserable life, etc. The girl found it all just so charming and amusing, egging him on, so he tried to showcase his "wit" in his retorts. I'm sure that if it were two guys it would have been much more aggressive. People around me seemed all to be just waiting for it to escalate.

Although at least 20 people may have witnessed the first altercation in the U-Bahn the police is still desperately calling out for them to contact their nearest police station. Possibly, if enough people had got involved and even pushed the emergency button the victim would not have been attacked. But the kids probably would only have been released again after yet another reprimand.

the whole incident is the victim's fault. He had pointed out the smoking ban in the U-Bahn coaches to the two young, drunk, drugged-up men.


Who do they think they are with the old I-was-drunk-and-mucked up excuse? Paris Hilton? Lindsay Lohan?

Geez!

FF

I hate to say it but Germans are a bunch of pussies. I guarantee you if the same thing happened in front of 20 Americans or Englishmen...some foreign kids calling an old man a shitty Yank or Brit and spitting in his face...then those two dumbasses would have got their asses handed to them.

Echo all the other posts, just what were you trying to achieve with this one mic?

If you read the newspaper they called him "Du scheise Deutsche", and one of them boasted on the borrowed phone, "now you're going to hear me kill a German".

That rather sounds to me like louts who feel foreign, and have a problem with Germans.

Mic really should read a newspaper <subtle racial dig>if his German is up to it</subtle racial dig> before posting such crap.

Really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
I wouldn't be so sure. This is a pretty well-known social phenomenon which is not limited to Germany. Did you ever take Psychology 101? This phenomenon is taught in Intro to Psychology classes.

Been attacked in front of others and not one person came to my aid.

However, they probably thought that someone as ugly as me had been through a few scraps.

I am massively into vigilante action myself. Beating the shit out of a couple of little scrotes, and being on the moral high ground? Awe to the some. 17 and 20 year old nippers? Free dog food. Sounds ace. Gutted I missed out on it really.

Actually I did take that class and can even remember who Kitty Genovese was. I even recall a recent incident in the States where convenience store shoppers stepped over a stabbing victim. I'll stick by my opinion though. The incident here also involved taunting based on ethnicity and if a couple of punk immigrants were to taunt an older Brit or American like that, in front of 20 or so of their countrymen, then I'd bet the outcome would be decidedly different. Frankly, it's a lot less likely to happen in those countries because the young immigrants here know that Germans will, as likely as not, react like sheep.

People here also don't have the sense of the law being something it is OK to take into their own hands in the way people might do in Anglo-saxon countries. By and large Germany and Munich inparticular has a very low crime rate especially for violent crime, you don't see the sort of mindless hooliganism that is normal on a Friday night in most British towns.
The result is that people here often don't know what to do when confronted with it because they are not used to it and because crime is seen as something the police are there to deal with. It is not cowardice or indifference its just people here for the most part are not used to dealing with it.

They've been completely emasculated: Conflict avoidance behaviour among Germans

The Politicians and PC Brigade have a large part to play in this as they water down the punishment for criminals and allow these criminals to basically do what they want. I can see alot more Foreign Criminals coming to Germany and doing what they want and getting away with things in most cases, with more East European Nations being allowed in the EU. Prisons in many Western lands are now more like a Holiday Home than a place that criminals dont want to go back to. When are politicians going to crack down on criminal activity seriously? Instead of wasting money on having Soldiers in Afghanistan etc-which has nothing to do with Germany, this money would be better spent on the Police force.How can it be that such Criminals, such as this Turkish Thug and the Algerian Guy in Köln, who drove into a Pensioner, who has now lost his legs, have a long history of crime and yet still walk the streets free?

The Politicians and the like think they are doing good by giving the Police let money and power to fight criminals-German or whatever, by letting more nations in the EU, by getting rid of border guards etc. The thing is sadly many East Europeans like Poles, Czechs, Romanians etc see little prospect in their own land, but see opportunity to make money in Germany by stealing, committing Fraud etc and now knowing they cant be kicked out of Germany, nor do they need passports to travel anymore.

I would rather live in a Police State, where you feel safe and the Police and courts have the power to do whatever to the Scum who regularly make life hell for people. If it meant that I would checked often so be it, as I would rather have a safe place, where ALL people regardless of Age, Sex, Nationality felt safe to walk around and not get nearly killed by Scumbags. The PC brigade and Politicians would rather give power to the Scumbags though and waste money on re-educating people who often have no intention of changing or sending them on little holidays rather than making them pay for the crimes.

In NYC maybe, but in the south that is a different story. We are all waiting for a good excuse to kick some ass.

Yeah, way to go. Who needs basic human rights or anything, just castrate rapists and cut off thieves' hands. They're antisocial scum, after all, and the government needs more power. Good god.

People who consistantly go around beating up old people putting them in Hospital so that they nearly die, robbing people-again usually the elderly and having a file with over 40 sepereate criminal cases dont deserve human rights. They dont bother giving the victims of their crime any rights, especially in the case of the 2 Scumbags beating up this poor old man. And who says anything about castrating Rapists or cutting thieves hands off? Nice to see you go to such an extreme The point being is that Prisons are often too much of a nice number and that these offenders know they will soon be out. I worked at one Prison, doing some building work a few years ago in the UK and the Prisoners got paid money, had satelite TV and 3 good meals a day! Sorry but Prison is suppossed to be a place where people fear going not some where to enjoy things at the Tax Payers Expense. If the Courts had the Power to lock these scumbags up for along time and put them in basic conditions where they have to work for nothing and get basic food they might think twice about commiting such acts

If your existence is so pathetic that you wouldn't mind giving up your freedom in return for a tiny little room, television, food (that probably blows) and mindless hours of physical work (not to mention the fun time you can have with some of the inmates and the fact that your life is ruined even after you get out), then I pity you indeed.

And I could not disagree more. Even those who kill, steal and rape should have human rights. That's the whole fucking point, dolt. They're called human rights for a reason. It's not me that goes to extremes by following your train of thought and pointing out the obvious - being able to "do whatever" to criminals ultimately results in inhumane acts and extreme punishment. What are you trying to achieve by denying such criminals their basic human rights? Do you think it will do any good in changing their ways? If your only purpose is to protect society as a whole from these people and their vile acts, why is prison "too good" for them? It rather seems like your thoughts on the matter are fuelled purely by emotion, i.e. you would like to see them suffer and vent your own hatred on them. Thank the flying spaghetti monster you aren't in charge.

Thank god your not in charge neither or else the the place would be full of crime and the criminals would be getting pampered.

So not denying criminals human rights equals pampering them? Thanks a lot for the best laugh I had today.

So Dally, you are suggesting we should degrade ourselves to criminals in how we deal with criminals? You say they take away the human rights of their victims, so we should take away theirs which would essentially make us the same way they are?
Interesting way of thinking...

Have you ever been to NYC?

I agree with this to some extent. my brother works with the UK prison Service. he confirms that for many frequent offenders prison is not seen as a deterrent, more as a temporary cushy inconvenience.
certainly prison should be seen as a punishment and terms should ideally reflect the severity of the crimes. so definitely for violent crimes the human right of freedom should be taken away (if that's ok with you Sue87?) to prevent reoffence and further innocent victims.

Does the 'M' stand for Mail?

Has happened to me as well, but the bystanders were sort of following us around waving their arms about, not actually doing anything but seeming to. They were yelling, I guess. Was strange.

Certainly that's okay, since everything else would fail to protect the rights of those people"s (possible) victims. I would just like to make it clear that turning prisons into modern gulags, as Dally M seems to find appropriate, will not help anyone.

I just heard it seems the "close to the NPD" "Bürgeriniative Ausländerstopp" who want to stand for Munich City Council in the elections in March, are planning on holding a "vigil" for the victim of the Arabellapark U-Bahn attack this Friday 4th Jan outside the NationalTheater around 1600...

This is interesting.

Xenophobia at the Heart of German Politics

Then say goodbye to doner. Bye the way you don't need to worry, they're leaving because they're bored of this "great" treatment.

huh?

I don't condone what this knobs did. There is no excuse for it, and it should be punished to the maximum the law allows, which knowing the Müncher Stadtsanwälte shouldn't be that hard as they live on a different planet at the best of times. If these two were my lads, they'd be asking to be deported to not have to face me.

But oh dear... Following this case I've been rather disturbed about the populistic drum banging done by those I personaly think should be above this. And yet again the red tops and vote for me polititians are using the word "Ausländer" as a negative, shameing and tainting all of us who are "Mitburger" and "Immigranten" with the brush of criminality again, and allowing those such as the NPD a hauch of respectability when they present their arguments to the public.

Whatever happened in these youth's twisted minds, it's obvious that society as a whole is failing in certain areas. I think we are all quiet aware that the concept of manners, respect and politeness and ethical and moral fortitude are severely lacking in our society at the moment. Crap parents and rubbish family life, uncaring teachers, rubbish role models in all levels of society are eroding our traditional values and the barriers of decency within our youth no matter where they are from. Worse still, cowardice and fear are compounding the matter, and the easy and effective media escape route of publicly blaming or incinuating Ausländer for a percieved rise in criminality leads to a climate of mistrust.

The worst part is that this sort of thing brings out the racist in even quite liberal people - playing right into CSU hands.

It was on the news this morning that the Turkish guy's brother is already in jail for GBH or something, and that the dad also has some sort of criminal record for violence.

Dude, I believe more in the CSU than any other party here, in fact I vote for them when I can. If such people are played into the CSU hands then it's an OK result to a pretty brutal and populistic (in Germany that is) move ba a polititian who is fighting for his career. The problem is that some don't and end up voting NPD.

Agree with Gideon's post #45.

Anyhoo, to stir it up a bit: I was on the tram yesterday and I saw this über Bavarian bloke.
Round, red faced, he looked like a pig. Had the slightly tatty Landaus Stil going on and a hat with a
feather with those little badges on proving he'd been to every knacker Alpine village from Oberstdorf to Eagle's Nest.

I thought to myself, you are just the sort of stick-your-oar-in, busybody "ordnung muss sein" type that likes to have your way in a public space.
As I got off he started shouting without provocation at a lad on the tram:

"Hock dir mal g'scheid hi', koana will sitzen wo dei dreckige schuhen war"

The lad in question didn't have his feet on the seats but merely stretched his legs out so that the soles of his shoes were touching the base of the seat opposite.
He drew his feet in but said nothing but really a "fuck off and mind your own business" would have been in order.
But it seems this busybody felt confident enough to try and law down the law.

Re-opening a window on the U-Bahn that a granny grumpily slammed shut becasue she might get the flu from it could be the new manslaughter.

That's just it: The guys who got attacked were not cowardly and did show public spirit. I am against sending young hoodlums on three-week-cruises to learn team spirit and responsibility. Make them do public service such as cleaning the U-Bahn, tending to the elderly, cooking in communal kitchens. Give them work and a sense of acheivement.

I was thinking about it today a bit in terms of punishment and costs.

I read a few weeks ago that the UK Government was under fire for giving some illegal immigrants who left the country of their own free will 4000 pounds to start a small business where they came from. But that the process of actually forcibly deporting someone cost an average of 11 thousand pounds.

Sentencing young offenders to "soft" punishments or touchy-feeling, hug a tree and find yourself therapy is often criticised.
But is the state prepared to put up the money for stricter sentencing which I GUESS can be a lot dearer.