Xenophobic reaction to the Arabella U-Bahn attack

Fuckin' CSU want to sent people to what they're calling boot-camps. Nice.

The ghost of Willie Whitelaw haunts the CSU!

From the BBC: "Tory home secretary Willie Whitelaw wanted to make life uncomfortable for young offenders.

The idea was to subject them to a harsh training regime to shock them out of a life of crime.

But the four experimental centres failed to have any impact on re-offending and were criticised for simply turning out fitter criminals."

I see today's Bild "Zeitung" had a headline designed to promote harmony amongst the population in Germany

DIE WAHRHEIT ÜBER KRIMINELLE AUSLÄNDER

In the more reputable press I read today that however much the politicians froth at the mouth, it might not be so easy even to deport the Turkish citizen accused of the U-Bahn attack if he is convicted.
As he was born and grew up in Germany he still gets some protection from deportation under the 1950 European Human Rights Convention:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/artikel/113/150739/

what's wrong with boot-camps?

Those feathers are evil. Im convinced of it.

And that Koch's a scumbag.

As mentioned above, some people think they are unconstitutional in how they treat young offenders and whether they actually work. ie prevent re-offending.

This sub-title was even better: "They bring them up to be criminals!"

Dad: Now, sonny, when you are on the U-Bahn, what do you do?
Son: Give up my seat to anyone elderly, on crutches or pregnant!
Dad whacks him upside the head
Dad: No, you reject spawn, you smoke, listen to loud music and beat up anyone who complains! Got that?
Son *shrinking away from his father's raised hand* : Yes, Daddy.
Dad: Good. Read up on tomorrow's lesson, "How to fell a pensioner with one blow". And don't forget to pray to Allah to make you a strong, unrepentant asshole, that's the way Germans want to see you!

I think that should be "beat up anyone weaker than you who complains!" Regardless of where they come from these little fucks rarely have a go at someone who might be able to put up a fight.

Aye, that's what gets me about these pricks.

How fucking manly to kick a pensioner on the floor or to attack people who are just two of them and there's a gang of you.

I'm not in favour of vigilanteism but you can bet if the tables were suddenly turned, these wannabe "men" would become boys very quickly and cry for mummy.

so the rally going on in Marienplatz right now is related to this, i'm assuming?

I´m not so sure. Maybe that´s why there´re so many stabbings(UK) and shootings(US). It´s normally best to inform the police asap and stay out of trouble yourself.

As for the racist element, I tend to agree with the topic starter. I noticed when I lived in the Netherlands that they always pointed out the nationality of offenders. There is no need for it. It´s the same as when Saffers tell a story and refer to the black, the white, the Indian and the coloured. It´s classification and it shows a deep-seated racism. And Europeans unfortunately are not exempt.

More grist for the mill. Bunch of rioting youthhs with "Migrationshintergrund" beat the snot out of a U-Bahnn driver after smashing up the inside of the train. Radio said they were Afghani, etc.

http://www.pr-inside.com/de/jugendliche-at...ner-r372941.htm

Guess there was another attack in Munich as well. Iraqis and Palestinians apparently. U-bahn just doesn't seem like the place to be at present.

Gauweiler, often referred to as "Gauleiter" has claimed that "Germany will be defended in the Munich U-Bahn":

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/artikel/436/151059/

Nothing like depicting 20% of the city of Munich as some kind of enemy within to grab racist votes I guess.

And for those of you that are EU citizens and entitled to vote in the council elections in Bavaria this year: Before you give your ballot, you might want to think about which party wants to throw European treaties overboard for short term populism and give themselves the right to deport you, however long you have lived here or if you were even born here:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/artikel/514/151136/

And the worst part is that Angie has jumped in to support Koch. I cannot believe that 50 odd years after cooking 6 million Jews there are still people in a mainstream party in Germany playing the race card in an election. As if it wasn´t bad enough with Sarkozy pandering to the right-wing extremists in France. At least, from what I read in the Spiegel, 66% of Germans polled felt Koch was being an absolute wanker. I hope the CDU pays dearly in the elections.

Separated at birth: Koch and Toht

Ulysses, what exactly is the "race card" here, if one discounts the usual election campaign rhetoric (and as a party leader Merkel is expected to support Koch to a certain degree, but perhaps she's also secretely quite happy that he, one of her rivals, once again is the hardliner instead of middle-of-the-road)?

The topic is juvenile delinquency, and apart from the suggested deportation of non-German delinquents, the other debated "amendments" would concern German and non-German offenders alike: changes in juvenile court sentences, short detention with sentences on parole ("Warnschussarrest"), boot camps.

While other groups are demanding faster processing of such cases and expedited sentencing so the culprit doesn't think he's getting away with it for months on end.

Want to deport you or want to deport you if you've committed a crime???

Which party would that be? So that I can vote for them.

Apart from the whole macho element of this quote it is sadly not true. I saw exactly this situation in a London suburb. After a round of insults, a dozen asian kids kicked an English boy to the floor and were pounding him. A crowd of people looked on. I stepped in and dragged the kid on the floor out. No one touched me but then I am 6'2, big built and (I am told) look threatening.

The asian kids ran away and not one of those on-lookers had called the police before, during or after the violence. Ordinairy people have no idea how to react to real violence whether it is verbal or physical. Most people are rarely faced with it. They are generally shocked, scared and become helpless when seeing someone bloody and being beaten in real life.

I have been called many names by Turks and Germans in the 15 years I've been here. I've been arrested once (charges later dropped) for an altercation with Turkish youths. I will stand up for myself and generally thats all it takes but then I'm not 80 years old.

I think people should differentiate between what was a vicious attack, and how the media could have taken more responsibility by not using such a 'Daily Mail' approach to publishing this crime to the public. I mean, the kids were Greek and Turkish (correct me if I'm wrong), but does that really make a difference. It'd still be a nasty crime, were it to be commited by 2 Germans. In fact, what would be interesting if something like this was commited by 2 French kids, or 2 English kids- I wonder how the media would have responded to that.

It reminds me of a case in Brussels a year or so ago. A Flemish kid was killed by what the Belgian media described as being someone of 'North African/Arabic' descent. Turned out he was a Polish gypsy. It seems more right wing there than in Germany, and unfortunately for the Arabic community - many of whom contribute very positively to Belgian society - received no apology for this. I was quite amazed by the poor handling of this media coverage.

It wasn't the media, the grainy security video which was released led everyone to believe that the perpetrator was an Arab.


How well do you actually know Brussels?

Damn, I made a post and lost it somehow.

Koch is doing this cos he is DESPERATE for votes. Wulff and von beust who are also facing election aren't and distanced themselves from him.
So there is opposition to Koch even within his own party.

Yes because the attack itself seemed to have a xenophobic motive.

Let's compare and contrast with Mügeln.
Didn't a senior politician (Sachsen Innenminister IIRC, CDU ) try and play down it was an attempted mass racist lynching?

On the one hand Koch is one of her biggest threats, on the other she needs his support. It shouldn´t really be a surprise that the CDU is pulling the racial card because it clearly states in their program that the better integration of foreigners would lead to less criminal behaviour. What stinks about such a comment and Koch´s too is that it has to link "Ausländer" with criminal behaviour. Juvenile delinquency is as much a German problem as it is foreigner problem. What about all the extreme right-wing attacks on "Auslämder"? Don´t see Koch mentioning anything about that? And how can he complain about something that he himself has caused? He´s cut down on police, judges, etc. Last, but not least, you have 3 attacks and all of a sudden it is an election theme. There are more important things to be solved than haphazard crimes committed by foreign juvenile delinquents.


Exactly, instead of voting for important things such as health, infrastructure, education, etc. you vote for the party that does something - actually doesn´t - about foreign criminals. What about the German criminals? Koch has evidently succeeded with you. Didn´t think you were into right-wing populism.

I had a conversation about this attack today, with a German business acquaintance from Munich. He said that the basic problem is that there are good immigrants, and bad immigrants. Good immigrants, according to him and his friends and family, come from western cultures, and adapt willingly and easily to German life, and bad immigrants come from non-western cultures and soak up all the local resources and cause problems. He actually used the terms bad and good. When I suggested that this could be a dangerous perspective and compound the problem of lack of integration from these "bad" cultures, he told me that it's the responsibility of immigrants to adapt, no matter how difficult, not the responsibility of Germany to help them adapt, and that this attack is evidence of this. Sort of a weeding-out of ill-fitting immigrants.

That sounds about standard there Fribble, there's a huge hierachy of "good" foreigner, "bad" foreigner.

That´s the problem. All Turks are suddenly bad foreigners and all Englishmen are good foreigners despite the fact that a good many Turks are way more "German" than a lot of English people I know. I suppose "western culture" means "white-skinned". I wonder if these people actually listen to themselves.

Your remark made me scan the CDU's "Resolution of the 21st Parteitag" , but I couldn't find anything like the above statement.

One of the more prominent CSU-members, Peter Ramsauer, said assaults on pensioners are as reprehensible as attacks on foreigners. FAZ Jan.7th.

There is an element of truth in this. Lets talk about the immigrants from the indian sub-continent to the UK... Although racially/economically the same, the indian community (very generally speaking ofcourse) perform better in schools, are more qualified, are more integrated in english society, and have better jobs than the pakistani/bangladeshi community... Why is that?

Think that is a class thing Heena.

In classical clichéed terms, an Indian immigrant was a dcotor and a Pakistani immigrant was a textile worker.
And class immobility did the rest.

Just look on here. there are people who don't speak German, go to English speaking pubs and businesses, avoid German food, only consume media from their home country, stick to home traditions and festivals etc etc. But somehow (generally white) immigrants are somehow "good" foreigners even if we do what is held as negative amongst the "bad" foreigners.

Valid point, but it isn't simply an issue of class, but also of culture/upbringing. My grandfather came to england in the 50s and wasn't a skilled worker. He worked in steel factories, and canals. My dad came to england and worked on building sites. But they both saw the value of education and being accepted into the host nation's society. My mother taught me english instead of her own language. Compare this to countless numbers of pakistani/bangladeshi families I've know, who even after 20 years in the UK can barely speak english, and are happy to claim benefits off the state. These communities feel it is more important to send their children to mosques to learn the koran, than to learn to integrate into british society. I'm not saying this is true in all cases, but it is definitely a trend.

This is an observation I have made, and would be interested to hear what others have to say...

i think that you are totally right.

Perhaps the strucutred nature of Islam pushed immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh in a different direction than in Hindu or Sikhs people with Indian backgrounds?
Perhaps all a bit clicheed, but there has to be some explanation somewhere.

I think you are on the slippery slope to racial prejudice i.e. the trend shows Bangladeshis and Pakistanis to be inferior to Indians hence they must all be inferior. It´s always interesting to see how people who have been prejudiced against do exactly the same to others.

Here:

Integration:Fordern/Fördern

It´s all in German. It clearly states that the better integration of immigrants would lead to Germany becoming a safer place to live. I didn´t realise that so many delicts were being committed by foreigners.

I also find it strange how the CDU wants Europe to be Christian in character and at the same time they´re pandering after Turkish votes. They really are not very bright.

integration or assimilation?

If they were bright they may be able to get a certain level of support from the "small businessmen" or "mittelstand" type Turks as some of them want to do.
Particuarly in places like Berlin.

But they come against the simple in your face bigotry of the more southern / rural areas.

If you know somewhere they can be deported to lets hear it. Equal opportunities.

That's the point.
Two criminals, both born here, both product of same society, both done same crime.
But they deport one and not the other.

These kind of things/rules also create insecurities among the expats..What if some local attacks us and we do something to defend that?..Or should we humbly beg them not to attack and listen accordingly?

I guess, most of the people will be thinking "what if i defend and hit some local guy who's attacking me? If there's evidence of that, its ok.Otherwise, will i be deported?"

What are the rights of people living and working in other countries?

Ideed. You'd hope to ge a fair trial if it came to court.
Or that the police or state prosecutor would realise it was reasonable self-defence.

But I'm reminded of the recent case of a TTer accused of distributing counterfeit money.
I think his innocence would have been established earlier if he were German.

And for all us EU citizens, who might have thought we were "as good as", the CSUs new desire to have European treaties re-written to be able to deport us come as a chilling reminder what they think of us in the cold light of day.

Sorry? I think you , in your cossetted and selective blindness miss the point that this was a xenophobic attack itself. These people shouted "Scheisse Deutscher!" as they beat this old man. So kindly direct your anti-xenophobic attack at the perpetrators and not the host country.

I think the Staatsanwalt is overboard with the attempted manslaughter perhaps.
But there is no doubt this was a very unpleasant attack on a vulnerable individual and had at least partially a xenophobic background.
Given that and afaik, their current lack of remorse, I don't think there is any alternative to a significant custodial sentence if they are convicted.

Sure there is , if such people treat their hosts and their host country in that manner then I think the government here should kindly fund their prison term to be served in their country of origin. One can easily imagine not only the tremendous savings to the German taxpayer but also a remarkable increase in respect for the home country should the gentlemen return.

The point is not the attack itself, it´s how it´s being milked by the politicians. I fully agree that both should have the maximum sentence available meted out to them. I find it a bit rich though that the CSU and CDU go on about it when they´re the ones who have been cutting police posts and cutting expenditure spent on youth assistance and rehabilitation. They´ve cut off money from treating the causes and now want additional measures to treat the symptoms.

Both assuming you´re referring to whether an immigrant should take an active role in integrating himself and the state or society in assimilating them.

Ulysses, I think OG is referring to two separate concepts.
Not the same process from two diffeent perspectives.

When a lot of politicians say "integrate" they really mean "aasimilate".

I'm "integrated" in that I like sauerbraten for example.
But they want us to be "assimilated" in say no longer liking mint sauce on lamb.

Perhaps a silly example but that what it is about.

Yes it is a slippery slope, but in this over-PC world, people are too scared to analyse facts and draw conclusions in order that they may offend someone... somewhere. Yes, generalisations are made, but there isn't one equation that fits all, but more a 'best fit curve' that demonstrates a trend. Only once you have identified these differences and the issues, can you begin to address integration problems!

I'm not saying indians are better than pakistanis/bangladeshis, or vice versa, but there is a fundamental difference in culture/upbringing. To deny/ignore this is just burying your head in the sand!

Ultimately it is about respecting the traditions/culture of your host nation, but without sacrificing those of your home nation. If there is a major conflict in tradition/culture, then maybe one should consider choosing a host nation that is compatible?