Xenophobic reaction to the Arabella U-Bahn attack

Politically speaking and in popular jargon you would be correct. Geographically though, the eastern border of Europe is in the Urals, so Gurux is pretty much correct. Greece, Bosnia and Turkey, however, are all in the south, Bosnia being the only one that was ever under Communist, but not Soviet rule.

IT runs through our genes mate :-)


The point is, you have to separate politics from religion. However, religion generally tends to define the culture of a nation which in turn defines its laws and its politics. Problems arise when the culture of immigrants conflicts the culture of the host nation. This is my argument. An immigrant should respect the culture of the host nation and adapt. If there is a major conflict (e.g. womens rights), then the immigrant needs to decide whether or not to comprimise in their values. If they can't, then they should stay put. It's not up to the host nation to comprimise their culture. This is exactly the same as when a european wants to live/work in the middle east... they have to adapt!


I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I didn't understand your remark...

Although you do make gross generalizations and that is always dangerous, I tend to agree with a lot of what you've written.

Religion has a strong influence on culture (although the influence can be reciprocal).
Culture has a strong influence on individual behaviour.

If you look for the trouble you'll find it everywhere... Going to a strip club with the people you don't know in the city you don't know was an excellent idea man.

Hungarians amongst others hate being classified as "eastern".
They are seeking their place in the western "rich boys club" and have a strong anti Russian mentality that in some sates borders on outright xenophobia and racism.
But I think it is as useful term with regards to modern history and the contined economic gap between the old west and the old east.

The geogrpahical centre of Europe is here:

http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=DE|rach...a%20Oblast'

In the Ukraine. Almost spitting distance from Romania.
And within a shortish distance from Hungary, Slovakia and Poland.

but all the borders and countries are "made up" anyway.


I was handing you your argument on a platter there.
Any more of that cheekiness and I will have to spank you!

What I thought was VERY dodgy is that the crime victim support group Weisser Ring was saying that naturalised Germans who committ crimes should be stripped of the citizenship.
Constitutionally VERY dodgy! So you jump through all the hoops and become German, but there's that lingering doubt. Do they really count me as belonging?

No.
BTW: you are the typical leftie. Talking about tolerance all the time, but being tolerant of course only as long as the counterpart is of the same opinion. If not, it is of course an exceptional emergency that legitimates exceptional measures.

What is an exceptional emergency that legitimates exceptional measures? One person being kicked in the head in Munich and about 3/4 others in the rest of Germany? And some of those attacks involved Germans. Do you really think the crime statistics are so bad that they should be made an election theme? Germany has more important things to tackle which if they´re not solved will actually lead to more crime. Unemployment, education, to name but two. Another problem is that Koch is trying to put the blame on the SPD. Who has in been in power in Hessen the last 9 years? Who has cut police posts, judges´posts and spending on "Jugendhilfe"? Which "Land" takes the longest to process criminal charges? Who´s to blame? Stop looking for excuses when it comes to culture. You as a German should know better or have you forgotten your lesson already?

The geographical centre of Europe is not defined - there are a few cities in Germany, Poland and a few other countries claiming they are the right ones ) It all depends on the way you calculate it.
Here is the map with the self-nominated candidates:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Centre_of_Europe.jpg

Munich / Bavaria people, watch Hessen - might well set the tone.
The CSU has anti "Ausländer" rhetorik up their sleves.
They are MORE than willing to get votes by hating Toytowners.

Here's a thought: Don't break the law and you won't have to worry about being kicked out of the country! Holy toledo, what a concept!!! Do you REALLY want a bunch of fellow "auslanders" around fucking up and creating a bad rep for non-Germans as a whole? Fuck'em. If they commit a violent crime, kick'em out. Look at it this way. You're having a party in your house. Some people that you didn't invite came to the party but you accepted them as your guests. Later in the evening, they become violent and start beating up your friends. Would you (A) throw them out OR ( B ) ask your friends to be tolerant of them and try and still be friends ?

I would tell them to stop first of all.

I would tell them something like "ok you are welcome but rules are: no shoes, no food on the floor, no fights. if you break one of them you are out".

Common sense dictates: When you're a guest somewhere, don't be a dick. You won't be welcome if you are.

What shocked me of this story is that we are not talking about guests, we are talking about germans who talk like guests.

Don't need to scratch very hard to find the old "Gastarbeiter" clichees do you?
Many if not most of the non-citizens in Germany were either born here or are here for the long haul, its not the same as having a "guest" at a party who abuses your hospitality.

The deabte reminded me somewhat of the recent story of the Dutch diplomat who returned an adopted child.
In your family you have to take the rough with the smooth.

The C parties have been pushing the EU concept for the past 50 years and now all of a sudden OB candidate Schmidt wants to throw European treaties overboard for a possible short term gain.

I was handed a leaflet yesterday outside Pasing Rathaus by the charming short-haired gentlemen of the "Bürgeriniative Ausländerstopp". Looks like we mucky Ausländer are to blame for every kind of social evil that plagues modern Germany.

Managing somehow to contain my violent immigrant tendences, I refrained from braining him with my shopping bag and informed him in my best German that I was myself a foreigner, and didn't want his crappy leaflet, thank you very much.

Steam is still coming out of my ears.

So they're not here for the money or benefits then? Right.

What's wrong with coming here for the money? That's what I came here for.

Stone him! Stone him!

Indeed - but it wasn't initially the media or any xenophobes who made the seperation (didn't refer to them as Germans) THEY did that themselves, if I say "hey, you're going to be witness to me killing a German" I'm differentiating myself and not considering myself to be German, can I then be upset if everyone else also does not refer to me as being German?! Actually, from the comments the lads have made they'd probably kick you all in the head for referring to them as German/practically German/ whatever.

I am strongly against any form of xenophobia, racism etc. but I am also against violence and I believe you cannot possibly disregard one person's right (to live in safety and peace without the fear of being kicked the shit out of and your perpetrators getting no more than an ASBO or similar) for another's (or vice versa).

It's a difficult choice as to what the right move here would be and I for one would hate to be the one who had to make it. However, whatever happens, these young men - whether German, Hindi, Greek, Turkish or from friggin Pluto need to be dealt with harshly or else this kind of thing will become a frequent thing in the news (like in the UK, where it is also policy to deport repeat offenders but this often slipped through the net and there was recently a huge uproar about it - i.e. why that wasn't happening in so many cases).

I'm neither for nor against, I don't have all of the facts and I'm not sure deporting would solve anything. Hmm...

BTW - what really gets me about these 2, is that they really haven't shown an ounce of remorse. I would bet almost anything that this won't be the last time they commit such a crime.

And you came here for what? Alpenblick?

I liked Germany before , having had a long term German gf of 3 years before making the move.

Course a lot of original migrants came for the money / oppurtunities that they couldn't get at "home".
Like Germany was more than willing to take on extra about they couldn't and still can't produce at "home".

The essential difference in Germany being that the migrants and their children and children's children were some day expected to go "home".

As far as the EU Citizens go, what the fuck does it matter why we are here?
If the C parties want to bring Germany out of the EU, bring a propsal in the Bundestag.

I note with interest that CSU candidate Schmidt has accused those who grafitti his posterrs with anti racist messages as:
"Violent perpatrators who are letting the mask fall and showing their true colours". (Tuesday, Munich TZ).

Well, if the system worked better they wouldn´t just sit around collecting benefits. Unfortunately, it takes so bloody long to process some of the applications - during which they are not allowed to seek work - that they´ve become fairly entrenched here. I know a guy who had to wait 7 years before he was allowed to start working. Something else that you forget is that a lot of these people just don´t have any education which makes it rather difficult for them to find any work much the same as the Germans sitting on Hartz IV, who I might add, have had the opportunity of getting themselves an education. Furthermore, you´ve no doubt seen how expensive German courses are as well as how difficult it is to learn it. Imagine now you have absolutely no money and you can´t read or write. I think a little help from the state is going to be necessary or you can just tell them to fuck off back to wherever they came from. Choice is yours.

And the press would have a field day calling it a "racially provoked attack"...
sad but true

So Germany has now got a reason and responsibility to educate the world huh? Hey there's a couple of billion illiterates in the world , should they all come here? I took a train recently from Friedrichshafen , met a lad from the Congo , told me the whole story , how he bribed , cheated and broke every law there was to get to Germany , threw away his passport so they COULDNT process him and had a full education paid for by the tax paying German. Nice lad actually but load of bollix for a country to be honest.

Yesterday I saw an older woman (assuming German) holding a flyer that stated there are over 400,000 Aüslander in Munich. It looked like propraganda with the coloring and font effects. WHOOPDIE DOO! What's next? Should the torches come out now?

I thought propoganda had to do with distortion of the facts... where do you find the "propoganda" fonts???

Has anybody happened to see Der Stürmer I mean Bild today? I saw my S-bahn companion reading it. Christ a whole page dedicated to the Krimineller Aüsländer thing, and ripping the shit out of the guy's apology letter. Also a lovely article about the need to increase the fine for the insult "scheiss-deutsche". And Wahlhilfe aus Instanbul in Hessen! (Damm islamos! They'll be building our cars next... oh they already do)

I do worry about this.

I wish I could place a photo copy of it here but I couldn't wrangle it out of her arms. There was more listed on the flyer and due to by photographic memory not working properly at the time I really can#'t say. As far as 'propoganda' font, the huge size of the number of Aüslanders in Munich as if it was a point of concern. Was in Red #9 as well. Apparently someone has an issue with it.

This is a must to watch, and is refreshingly different.

Somebody should round up these pamphlet-happy fuckwits and march them through Munichs Kindergärten, give them a bit of perspective.

Now we know : the victim is the culprit:

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/...,529304,00.html

Jens Jessen, Feuilletonchef der Wochenzeitung "Die Zeit". In seinem Videoblog stellte Jessen die aktuelle Schlachtordnung regelrecht auf den Kopf und wetterte gegen die "unendliche Kette von Gängelungen, blöden Ermahnungen und Anquatschungen" intoleranter deutscher "Spießer", mit denen sie ausländische Jugendliche seit eh und je drangsalierten. Rhetorisch zugespitzt fragte er, ob unser Problem in Wahrheit nicht darin bestehe, "dass es zu viele besserwisserische deutsche Rentner gibt, die den Ausländern hier das Leben zur Hölle machen und vielen Deutschen auch".

So wäre das "Ausländerproblem" in Wahrheit ein "Rentnerproblem".

Nun brach ein Sturm los, und da half es auch nichts, dass Jessen schriftlich nachschob, er habe sich vielleicht etwas "unklar ausgedrückt". Aber so ist das eben, wenn niemand mehr redigiert. Dann gilt allein das erbrochene Wort.

Jens Jessen would have a field day on TT.

"unendliche Kette von Gängelungen, blöden Ermahnungen und Anquatschungen" intoleranter deutscher "Spießer"

Sounds a bit like our smoking ban debate thread

Edit: The guy has a point regarding the intolerance of some German petty bourgeois though.

sure...but why should anyone have to tolerate someone smoking on the tube where they shouldn't be + it's gross, there are hardly ever any windows open etc. I may not have said anything, as the pensioner did, but that's only because I would have been a bit scared of doing so - especially being used to London and how often people get kicked the sh*t out of for asking someone to refrain from [insert absolutely anything at all]

Oh he's just playing to the TT crowd here eh? He does have some iteresting points though, although it would have been better for him if he had mentioned them out of the context of this attack. In my time here as Gastarbeiter I've met a few Rentner who really should have visited a course on communication and conflict avoidance.

Interesting – and for sure controversial – article by sociologist Necla Kelek Gehorsam und Erziehung zur Gewalt, FAZ Feb. 9th. She takes a stand on the recent Offener Brief, Die Zeit Jan.24th. published by some well-known German-Turks who criticized the xenophobic slant of the Hessian election campaign, denounced social problems as the causes for juvenile delinquency and demanded better educational chances and role models for migrant youths.

In Kelek's view, this appeal fails to address the cultural roots of many problems in parts of the Turkish community. She claims that archaic-patriarchal values influence the way many Turkish kids are brought up. Education is based on obedience, respect for authorities and religion, which is at odds with the demands of a modern western society. Parents sometimes resort to violence when they think they lose control over their children. Social exclusion, failure in school and sometimes a tendency towards violence are ensuing problems.

Interesting interview with Heinz Buschkowsky, mayor of Berlin-Neukölln, on the same issue.

Says something when the Prime Minister of Turkey gets more respect than the Bundeskanzlerin.
I certainly gave his Auftritt more of my Aufmerksamkeit than I'd give the Ferkelerin.

Angie has already got some queen doing a drag version of her. Lovinn it.

It's not on topic, but why should Erdogan merit more respect for rushing to the scene in Ludwigshafen in order to gain points as caring "father of the nation", after Turkish media (newspaper "Hürriyet") stirred up emotions, and because it is also useful to distract from the interior debate about lifting the veil prohibition?

The victims of the fire were Alevites, a religious minority who isn't always protected effectively against attacks from fanatics in Turkey.

Erdogan's proposal of Turkish speaking high schools and universities and sending Turkish teachers to Germany doesn't show great insight in the problems of integration either.

Erdogan's visit was long planned.

Obviously he isn't a fan of the federal government but I saw a comment from MdB Cem Özdemir yesterday that Erdogan has done more for
the Turkish community in a couple of days than years of "integration" work by the government.
Erdogan called on Turks to actively take on German citizenship which got the C-Party conservatives shuffling their feet.

A Turkish politician promoting German citizenship for Turks living in Germany would be a novelty. I suspect Erdogan means double, i. e. Turkish and German citizenship. After all, Turkish legal restrictions, for instance regarding inheritance and property, are often cited as hindrances to taking German citizenship. Right now, there is a big assembly taking place in Cologne, organized by a Verein close to Erdogan's Islamic Party AKP. The backgrund seems to be that Turkey plans to change a law in order to allow Turks residing abroad to vote in Turkish elections. The fact that the event was massively advertised solely in Turkish language and that there is no translation into German at the assembly has been critized by the expert on Islam for the SPD fraction in Parliament, Lale Akgün.

Erdogan auf Werbefeldzug, Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger Feb. 5th

If Gordon Brown turned up at a public meeting in Germany, why the hell would I expect there to be an interpretor?

I think he would have a hard time making 20000 Britons gather to see him in the first place.

But if he came, and remembering also that British Citizens abroad also retain the right to vote in the UK, why should he speak to me in any language other than English?

But if I remember correctly, you lose the right to vote after a long period of absence from GB.

And it is a lack of sensitivity and politeness to conduct events entirely in a foreign language, especially when there are suspicions on the German side, and not completely unfounded, given the Turkish penchant for excessive nationalism.

I'm off to enjoy the sun!

And British politics never ha a nationalist tinge to it at all does it?
Jesus, even the Conservative Party MEPs have "issues" sitting in the same bloc as their colleagues in Brussels in case they catch "foreign".

If Gordon Brown speaks to me at a meeting, why should we not communicate in English?

It is the same xenophobic argument I've heard in pubs more times than I've had hot dinners.
If I speak English and a mate speaks English and we are speaking English to each other, any German that comes along and tells us to speak German with each other can fuck off.

I heard the same rubbish growing up as a kid in london in the 70s.
Racist shit just stinks.