Xenophobic reaction to the Arabella U-Bahn attack

Well whether one agrees or disagrees with Heena, here's an interesting fact: According to the Times the second most popular boys name in the UK is Muhammed
see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1890354.ece

I am often asked by friends in the UK if the Turkish community is similar to the UK Indians and I have used the very arguments that Heena used elswhere to explain this. There does not seem to be any drive to achieve status in Germany other than buying a second hand Mercedes.

I recently worked in Istanbul and the difference in people was remarkable. Well educated, courteous people whose language skills were outstanding. Many spoke English and German, the latter being accent free as opposed to the "Ghetto German" spoken by Turks here. Most remarkable was their opinions on their "German relations". They see them in an entirely negative light and in some cases blame them for turning opinion against Turkey's EU application.

The DA based this accusation on the severity of the injuries and the brutality of the crime itself. The guys kept kicking their victim after he was down, one with such force that he lost his shoe. That isn't bodily harm any more, that's intent to kill. The kids are lucky not to be done for attempted murder but the law has a very strict definition of murder.

What facts have you analysed? Your grandfather and a couple of observations in your local community it seems. Not exactly very scientific in approach or representative for that matter. What have you discovered? A trend. That suggests a correlational relation as opposed to a causative. You don´t seem to be very good at analysis. Maybe it´s because you´re Indian? Get my drift?

What should be done when a German has done same crime as Greek or Turkish did?
Different rules for different race, ethic?
Who was Adam?>>a German?, American?,Turkish or African?
Here I see many comments as racially motivated.

If the German did the same then send him back to Germany... uh wait a minute , jail is a lot easier here... no what I meant to say was "eat him" or "throw him to the polar bears in the zoo so that they won't be eating their cubs anymore".

Henna! Could you put some references what you said. I read some where, Indian are more involve in cheating for housing loans,Robbery and black works and other street crimes as comapred to other south Asian fellow

No idea what Adam was supposed to be except a character in a rather dubious book. At the end of the day, the attack was horrible for all reasons. Unprovoked and heinous. The perpertraters are, I believe, both here under asyl conditions. If you apply to live in a country for reasons that your life is endangered in your own land then you should live by the rules of your hosts. These guys have long rap sheets and if they were removed / deported / imprisoned or just made to vanish before now, we would not be having this discussion now.

Here is a quote from a good German friend, a judge actually: "if it wasn't for Turks and Russians I'd only have a part time job". Enough said?

Good foreigners, bad foreigners... yeah we heard this in the 30's already. Those Jews took away the jobs, they were wealthy and must have robbed the money from the poor good locals... Same old story. Man, they could not assimilate! They even did not speak proper German.
All in all the locals built a nice camp for them nearby Munich. The others got deported to the camps the good Germans built for them abroad. Let's don't forget about Gypsies, gays, lesbians, "the retards" - all of them just could not assimilate properly too. Who knows maybe they even comitted a crime or two.

Indeed. I got pulled up at work for talking about "Erziehungscamps" by a German colleague who suggested I used the traditional "Straflager".

You can't compare anti-Semitism with the problems associated with modern immigration; they just aren't comparable socio-economically.

When a knut like the Gauleiter who has a LONG track record, says: "Germany will be defended in the Munich U-Bahn" then somehow the parallels of
seeking to castigate an established section of a society take a dark historical ring to them.

Only if you want to give them a historical ring to them... If one feels German, regardless of race or creed, then one should not feel threatened by those comments. You'll criticize right-wing politicians who bitch about immigration, but in a way, you're saying that these immigrants aren't German and aren't part of the system yourself...

the times might have changed, but the way of thinking is the same. If you want to pretend there is no problem - your choice... Let me just remind you of one British prime minister who thought "he had brought the piece" from the meeting with a funny German leader wearing a stupid mustache... He also chose to be blind.
Someone wise said that the ones who do not learn from the history are forced to go through it again...

Indeed. We don't seem to have learned our lesson from the religious subjugation imposed by the Moors a thousand years ago. It is deja vu all over again...

Don't get much more integrated than me, but the comments from the Gauleiter sent a shiver down my spine.

@Ulysses, no I don't get your drift! Please explain... I'm only using the indian... pakistani comparisson as an example. Have a read of this article, and get back to me...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/educati...ker/1875512.stm

You're right, I haven't performed a detailed statistical analysis, and neither do I have the time or inclination to do so, but in my experience, this is often the case. What's your experience or statistical analysis?

Read last in SZ online that the CSU is postering all of Munich with (illegally obtained ?) photos of the attack with the suggestion "you could be next!" or similar.
MVG already reacted angrilly that they are being placed at U-Bahn entrances and thus scaring people of a supposed risk that is objectively very small.

Downloaded from the internet according to the PR agency. With the victim silhouetted and the text: "The next victim could be you!"
The MVG is very upset as it had only provided the police with the video in order to find the culprits.
The SPD is extremely angry as the poster suggests that City Hall is doing absolutely nothing against violent attacks on innocent victims.
The CSU is upset that the SPD is claiming on their posters that the CSU in curtailing the peoples' rights in declaring the popular vote against the Transrapid invalid.
The CSU has the support of 52% of the Bavarian people according to a poll.
According to the same poll, a whopping 63% of the Bavarian people are against the Transrapid.

Sorry for the digression but it all fits together.

Noticed some CSU "Sicherheit" posters along the Frankfurterring this morning. I couldn't read them at 60kph though!

Thanks for the link. I think I found the passage you are refering to, but it actually says something different (p. 1):


My non-professional translation:

"The CDU voted in favor of the immigration law, which came into effect on Jan. 1st. 2005, and in doing so curbed uncontrolled immigration into our country. It steers and limits immigration according to Germany's societal and economic interests. This includes regulations concerning labour migration and migration on humanitarian grounds. This [i. e. the above-mentioned aspects] provides an essential basis for successful integration. Furthermore, this [again, the above-mentioned aspects of the immigration law] will make Germany safer in the face of various criminal and terrorist threats."

So the focus is on regulating migration based on clear criterias. As to the meaning of integration, there are some hints:

"Integration bedeutet die Akzeptanz kultureller Verschiedenheit auf der Basis allgemein geteilter und gelebter Grundwerte." – "Integration means acceptance of cultural diversity on the basis of generally shared and practised fundamental values." (p. 2)

"Wer in Deutschland leben möchte, muss die zentralen Werte und Normen unserer freiheitlich-demokratischen Grundordnung annehmen, ohne dabei seine Herkunft verleugnen oder seine Wurzeln aufgeben zu müssen." – "Those who want to live in Germany are obliged to accept the core values and norms of our liberal-democratic political order, without having to deny their origins or relinquish their roots." (p. 2)

This is hardly the assimilation that some are implying as being the underlying sense of integration.

It is not my intention to advocate CDU immigration policies, but I think it is no use ranting about statements that haven't been made.

Off topic but being a British Asian (of Indian origin) working in Germany for a multicultural company with a slight Yorkshire accent (try saying that in one breath)...in my case and plenty of other Indian families who emigrated to the UK, achieving good grades at school was always first priority. IMHO religion is first priority for Pakistani/Bangladeshis.
Disclaimer: I have no evidence to back this up and I am sure there are exceptions to this rule if it happens to be true.

Based on 2005/2006 UK government statistics:


Source: Wikipedia: British Asian

no. i mean assimilation in the way the Borg do it. We are Borg.

And back on topic...:


Source: Expatica: Trio attack pensioner in Germany, fuelling debate on ethnic crime
I wonder if this is a trend or if more of these attacks are being reported on in the press.

What Germany needs is for the police to act more like they did in the 80s and early 90s with their spring batons and "smack first, ask questions later" attitude. That, and more vigilante justice. The fact that people are just standing around watching someone get beat within an inch of their life is pathetic. The German "passive-aggressiveness" doesn't work when someone is getting their ass beat. No matter how hard they stare or how many dirty looks they throw, it won't stop the act. People need to step up and beat the ever-living-shit out of these thugs (german, turk, greek, who-the-fuck-cares what nationality). Any non-German convicted of violent crimes should spend time in a German jail and then deport them back to their home country with orders never to return. Any German convicted of a violent crime should be put in jail. Not these pansy-ass German jails with televisions in their one person cell with a view of the countryside out the window. A REAL prison with Leroy and Bubba there to make them suffer.

What some people call a "vigilante", others call a "good samaritan".

Agree with Odenwalder , profitable prisons are the only way forward...

You would not like to meet the guy who spent 5 years in a prison where he had been under constant threat... These kinds of prisons make people even more violent and brutal when they leave the prison walls.
The mentioned 3 guys are probably possible to "fix" in a prison in which they could be thought the ways of finding the right path in their currently pathetic lifes... And I do not mean a single cell with air conditionning and thai massage, believe me...

My experience is that there is a causal relationship between socio-economic background and inclination to crime. There is no causal relationship between race and crime. I thought that that would be clear from my rather crude example.


I would encourage you to read between the lines when it comes to politicians. Indeed, actions speak louder than words and Koch, and worse, Merkel´s support for him, have proven what the CDU really stands for. Koch has been in power for 9 years in Hessen. He has cut spending on police, judges, youth help, etc. and now he goes on about youth crime - which is fine on its own- but then he has to add the "Ausländer" part into it. He furthermore states he is the "voice of the silent majority" something the NPD claims to be. Very thin ice if you ask me.


It´s all very fine and dandy presenting statistics, but you need to analyse them. Sure, there is a higher percentage of Pakistanis/Bangladeshis who are unemployed. Sure, they have not integrated as well as the Indians. The question is why? Is it because of their race or is it because historically the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have found themselves in socially-disadvantaged circumstances. It has been proven statistically that given the same circumstances, there is no difference between the achievements and likelihood of crime for blacks and whites in America. I´m pretty sure it´s the same for the Indians and Pakistanis/Bangladeshis.


It´s people like you who get stabbed or shot. There´s a wrong way and a right way to deal with these things. The right way would be to get the police involved as quickly as possible. I seriously doubt you will be beating any of these thugs to a pulp when there is a whole gang of them.

Jail is also not much use when it only serves to make the person more of a criminal. Putting a youth into jail for 15 years would take his youth away from him. It´s better to train these people, educate them and help them to integrate themselves into society. Obviously, if they cold-bloodedly kill someone I would argue they should be jailed for a very long time.

Wow. Source?

I'd like to see a source too, but Parnell, do you think that is not the case? Given the same circumstances, what does skin colour have to do with anything?

Exactly, I am British, which means in Germany im a foreigner, (EU has nothing to do with it), and if i commited such a crime, then the media would say i am British, what else should they say, at the end of the day these wankers done wrong, and they are foreigners, so whats your problem, its not rascist it's fact.

And BTW Mic, they were not just assumed to be "eastern european", they ARE eastern european, it's a geographical fact.

Why do all you bleeding-heart liberals keep whining on about foreigners/immigrants rights? Any law-abiding Yugoslavians, Russians, Afghans, etc are not going to get into any trouble and are in Germany because they have a better life than if they had remained in their home country... in other words they're damn lucky to be allowed to live in a safe western democracy. Spend your time looking at why many of these people choose to migrate/remain in their host country -> their homelands are crapped-up corrupt, racist, violent, sexist, religiously intolerant...

As requested

Oh, and another source, unfortunately in German from the program "Hart aber fair":

Hart aber fair

Interesting fact mentioned was a study done on Turks and Germans going to the same school. There was no difference between the likelihood to delve into low-level petty crime and the Turks even scored lower when it came to high-level, violent crime albeit only 2 percentage points less.

Wow - Greece, Bosnia, Turkey - according to you this is Eastern Europe? Geography must have been your favourite lesson at school...

According to my geographical knowledege the center of Europe is somewhere near the border between Poland and Ukraine, so in fact the geographical fact is that only Ukraine, Belarussia, Russia and Moldova are in Eastern Europe... Greece and Bosnia is in the southern part of our continent and Turkey is in Asia (except for the tiny piece of Istanbul which is in Europe).

I think that it's not the full story tbh. Skin colour has nothing to do with it but that there is a correlation is in question. I also suspect that Jews and Asians outperform Caucasians.


Charlatan. As expected.


Also nothing at all about crime in that report. Again source or withdraw your bias.

Doubtfull, but I suppose it's possible. But that's a risk that I am willing to take to stop assholes from picking on the weak. But again, I seriously doubt that I'd get stabbed. Maybe shot from a distance.


Wouldn't be the first time I've stepped in the middle of a group of people beating on someone. Wouldn't be the last. Some people can handle situations like that, some can't. You're obviously the kind that can't and assume that no one else can. Get over yourself.

Umm, it´s not exactly nuclear physics connecting socio-economic background to crime and socio-economic background to education, or is it? C´mon Parnell, I know you´re not thick. Sure, you get some bloody clever Jews and Asians out there. Are you going to say there´re no stupid ones? Are you going to maintain there´re no intelligent Caucasians? Or stupid ones for that matter? Why do you want to put everyone into one basket? That´s where racial prejudice starts.

Haha, you really are full of it. I was brought up to believe discretion is the better part of valour. I did defend the odd bloke or two at school when I knew it was only fisticuffs, but I can tell you right now I have seen guys like you pissing in their pants and crying at the sight of a gun or knife. Sure, I don´t know you, you may be an ex-elite soldier or even perhaps an ex-policeman. You shouldn´t really assume everyone is though or that they´re pussies because they avoid confrontational situations because they´re not always the best way of solving situations. At the end of the day you need to know yourself AND the situation because if you don´t you´ll only escalate the situation and come to harm yourself without even helping the victim. There´s a very fine line between heroes and fools.

@ Ulysses
Sorry chum but you've been caught red-handed with your "proof" bullshit in post #136. Try again.

As to intelligence or whatever , we're arguing here about cohorts not individuals.

I see that the head of the CDU Turkish group is saying today that this kind of xenphonic tubthumping is driving a wedge between people with migrant backgrounds and the party.

I provided you with proof that all things kept equal, blacks achieve the same as whites. Do I need to provide proof too that socio-economic well being and crime are also related? If not, then the logic is pretty obvious. As I said before, and you´re the actuary so this shouldn´t be necessary, it´s ok having the stats, but you still need to use your brains to derive logical conclusions from it. Mine was a logical extrapolation based not on correlation, but on cause. It´s called analysis.

@ Ulysses

WHAT??? FFS man , read:

From your own link that you provide (conclusion section)


So the report says specifically that it provides no proof of anything , not even in kindergartners. Not alone that but it puts forward a hypotheseis which it is unable to test. You're a very very very long way off "analysis" chum.

@Ulysses: you wrote:
"It´s all very fine and dandy presenting statistics, but you need to analyse them. Sure, there is a higher percentage of Pakistanis/Bangladeshis who are unemployed. Sure, they have not integrated as well as the Indians. The question is why? Is it because of their race or is it because historically the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have found themselves in socially-disadvantaged circumstances. It has been proven statistically that given the same circumstances, there is no difference between the achievements and likelihood of crime for blacks and whites in America. I´m pretty sure it´s the same for the Indians and Pakistanis/Bangladeshis."

So you've grasped the fact that there is a difference between pakistanis/bangladeshis and indians. Good!
Now we need to find the root cause... Socially disadvantaged...? No, I don't think so, as many indians/pakistanis/bangladeshis came to england under similar circumstances... i.e. little education, few skills, little money. Could it be race or skin colour...) No, they are the same race. Hmm... could it be culture? Well, we maybe onto something here. Aren't pakistanis/bagladeshi's muslim and indians generally hindus?? Is there a cultural difference between the two? Is one group, generally speaking, more religiously liberal than the other? Does one group place religious values higher than the other? Could this be the reason why one group has failed to integrate as well as the other?

Very good heena! The same applies to other immigrant groups. Of course there is also other cultural differences than religion, but culture is the point.

No shit Sherlock!
To be honest as a CSU supporter it sucks to see this being used in this way. Disgusting low down populistic rubbish and fear factor for personal gains (Are you reading this Gen?). I hear all stockists in München have run out of CS and Pepper Spray cans! I now await a face full of obnoixous gas next time I ask a German Rentner to be so polite and let me get off the train first!

The CSU should get it's head out of the gutter and concentrate on what it does best, economics. It would have been an ideal possibility to push the party as the one for responsible Ausländer/Migranten/Gastarbeiter/Turken mit Deutschen Pass/Mitbürger and lead the way forward out of this quagmire, but the Party just seems to go one step forward and two backwards all the time.

Actually, I always assumed Hungary too was Eastern Europe, and when I was in Budapest I was quickly 'corrected' by local Hungarians that Hungary was in fact Central Europe. It's as if to be labelled as Eastern Europe is a derogatory remark. Anyway, for arguments sake, I was more careful about what I said to the locals...until they took my friends and me to a local strip club in a taxi and completely fleeced us for €1500 and threw my mate into the back of a car and took him to a cash point to pay up more money for them. Then I remember something been said like 'you f*cking gypsy %$&%^*%$'.

Anyway, I would also say that Romania, Bulgaria, and all of the Baltic states are also Eastern Europe. Not too sure about Poland, The Czech Republic, and Slovakia though.

It may be just my ignorance, but I've always grouped any former soviet/communist country in europe as "east european".

Well, it´s a pity that such a bright Indian like you doesn´t know how to use the "quote" function. And there was me thinking Indians were good at IT! Getting to the point you make, I´ll agree with you that I have no time for religion since I see it as an obstacle in most things. But you are saying is there is no difference between Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis racially. That I can agree with. What you are saying is that Pakistanis and Bangladeshis tend to be more religious than Indians and whites for that matter. And that religion is what is holding them back. I couldn´t agree with you more. If I were, however, a member of the CDU or CSU or a Christian for that matter, I would have a problem with that line of arguing. Europe or America is not more tolerant because Christianity has become more tolerant. It is tolerant because many have rid themselves of the shackles of religion.


Been to any NPD rallies lately?

Well, Bavaria was a socialist republic for a short while (Bayerische Räterepublik) , you can add it to your list.