Is €60k a good salary in Germany?

Hi guys
another post about salary etc.
Try to figure out whether a job of 60k euros gross is good or not.
I am married with 1 child and my wife is not working.
The job is in the south of Germany, near Switzerland. How much will I expect net pcm?
Shall I ask for additional benefits (private insurance, language courses, something else)?
I know German taxes are quite high but how much in my case?
Maybe can I go to live in Switzerland and pay tax there and work in Germany (commuting everyday)?

Many Thanks

It would have helped if you told us which field you work in, although €60k a year is more than enough to live on. Yes, total deductions from your wage will be higher than you're used to from the UK, but remember this includes pension and health insurance as well. Expect to take home a little above 50%. Of course the cost of living here is substantially lower than in the UK.

you will be tax class III so by using this info your net would be around 31K according to this online calculator http://de.biz.yahoo.com/pf/st/logere.html
plus child benefit 150EUR/month.

You should always ask for additional benefits, nothing to loose max they say no;-)
beside what you mentioned you can maybe ask for support for your tax filing every year (it is much more complex here), paying for your commute to work (monthly pass), support in finding accommodation, giving you a temporary place to stay while you are looking for apt - it takes longer here than in UK and ask/tell your compamny to pay your makler fee (it is 2 months rent!)

insurance works differently here than in UK, so it is up to you if you want to go private or not (in your case public might make more sense)

i am not an expert, but went through the move from UK to DE few months ago. We stayed with the public insurance and I am veryimpressed by the high standard of it. In Uk we were both privately insured and even with that had crap experience (eg giving birth was not covered so I had to go NHS anyway)
Best of luck!
speedy

Hi guys

I checked the link and I got around 38k, am I doing something wrong (I don't speak German):

Lohnsteuer : 9846.00 Euro
Solidaritätszuschlag : 446.05 Euro
Summe der Steuern 10292.05 Euro

Rentenversicherung: 5970.00 Euro
Arbeitslosenversicherung: 1260.00 Euro
14.1% Krankenversicherung (+ 0,9% AN-Aufschlag): 3398.63 Euro
Pflegeversicherung: 363.38 Euro
Summe der Sozialversicherungsbeitäge 10992.01 Euro

Nettolohn: 38715.94 Euro

The field will be aerospace. We are at the beginning of the negotiation so I think I can increase a bit, but I am unsure how the Germans treat this: in England I could negotiate quite a lot.
Thanks speedygonzi for the suggestions: do you know if the rent can be deducted for tax purpose?

To summarise the benefits I could ask are:
-temporary accommodation paid
-language courses paid
-commuting costs paid
-help with tax filling
-relocation costs paid (moving)

In addition
- child benefit 150 euros/month

did I forget something?

Someone familiar with living and paying taxes in Switzerland and working in Germany?

Many Thanks

you are rigth it is 38K ( added church tax for you, but you can choose not to pay it and I selected month instead of year - so your result is right)

regarding tax deductibles why dont you ask them to provide you with tax consultation so you can make an informed decision of their offer? If they dont then it is best to seek professional advice before you sign anything. check the tax advisors who advertize here in TT.

oh, they could pay for a couple of flights home , say 2x per year for the whole family... depending on how badly they want you to move here they might agree
and make sure that the language courses are for the family not only for you - so they can integrate here better as well (use the word integrate, they like that, shows yr long term commitment)
how old is your child? I can think of couple of things depending on her//his age

I would try to hit them up for the cost of a rental agent to find you decent housing. I would even ask them to pay the cost of your housing or at least a percentage.

Yep, the relocation costs will be the big one – moving all your belongings here, finding a property to rent and then furnishing it will cost a lot of money. You could ask for several thousand euros here.

Can't really help you with the Switzerland/Germany thing, and I lose interest anyway if your only motivation is money. Find somewhere nice to live and a job you enjoy and make do with what you have, would be my world-view.

You don't have to negotiate for the child benefit, it is paid automatically by the German state for every child up to 18 (up to 25 if still attending school/professional training/university):
154 euro per month for each child, for the first, second and third child. 179 euro per month for fourth and more.

Your employer applies for it at the Familienkasse and he is the one who siphons it to you each month.

I think its the parents who apply for it - at least we get the communications from the Familienkasse about our son reaching 18...

Ok, if you work for a state institution (e.g. university) you have to apply for it with a special form for public employees and from then on your employers transfers you the Kindergeld (child benefit) each month, together with your salary.

In all other cases you have to fill in the application form (http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/zentraler-Con...-Kg1-Antrag.pdf) and send it and an original of the child's birth certificate to your Familienkasse, and they will transfer the Kindergeld each month into your German bank account (i.e. the one you wrote in the application form).

If your surname starts with letter A to K, send it to:
Familienkasse Deggendorf
Hindenburgstraße 32
94469 Deggendorf
Fax: 0991 / 3101580
E-Mail: Familienkasse-Deggendorf@arbeitsagentur.de

If your surname starts with letter L to Z, send it to:
Familienkasse Passau
Nikolastraße 6
94032 Passau
Fax: 0851 / 508617
E-Mail: Familienkasse-Passau@arbeitsagentur.de

thread on Kindergeld: http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t12467-50.html

Hi guys,
how many days of holiday do the Germans have in the industry?
thanks

Typically 30 days PLUS the local state holidays. Since you state that you will be in Southern Germany you will get the maximum (more than us Northerners).

Take a look at http://www.schulferien.org (its in German) & work your way through which federal state you will be in ...

Thanks HEM
I found this http://www.schulferien.org/Bayern/bayern.html

Sorry, does it mean that all these days are for vacation in 2008?
They don't work? Am I dreaming or what?
Thanks...

Winterferien Osterferien Pfingstferien Sommerferien Herbstferien Weihnachtsferien
2001 26.02. 09.04. - 21.04. 05.06. - 16.06. 26.07. - 10.09. 29.10. - 03.11. 24.12. - 05.01.
2002 11.02. 25.03. - 06.04. 21.05. - 01.06. 01.08. - 16.09. 28.10. - 02.11. 23.12. - 04.01.
2003 03.03. - 07.03. 14.04. - 26.04. 10.06. - 21.06. 28.07. - 08.09. 27.10. - 31.10. 24.12. - 07.01.
2004 23.02. - 27.02. 05.04. - 17.04. 01.06. - 12.06. 02.08. - 13.09. 02.11. - 06.11. 24.12. - 07.01.
2005 07.02. - 11.02. 21.03. - 02.04. 17.05. - 28.05. 01.08. - 12.09. 31.10. - 05.11. 27.12. - 05.01.
2006 27.02. - 03.03. 10.04. - 22.04. 06.06. - 17.06. 31.07. - 12.09.1) 30.10. - 04.11. 27.12. - 05.01.
2007 19.02. - 24.02. 02.04. - 14.04. 29.05. - 09.06. 30.07. - 10.09. 29.10. - 03.11. 24.12. - 05.01.
2008 04.02. - 09.02. 17.03. - 29.03. 13.05. - 24.05. 04.08. - 15.09. 03.11. - 05.11. 22.12. - 05.01.
2009 23.02. - 28.02. 06.04. - 18.04. 02.06. - 13.06. 03.08. - 14.09. 02.11. - 03.11. 24.12. - 08.01.
2010 15.02. - 20.02. 29.03. - 10.04. 25.05. - 05.06. 02.08. - 13.09. 2) 2)
2011 3) 3) 3) 3) 3) 3)

There is a slight difference between school holidays & your holidays from work...

You were probably looking at the school hols.

Look at http://www.schulferien.org/Kalender_mit_Fe...ien_Bayern.html

Be aware that in 2008 two holidays fall on same date = tough luck (1st May & Himmelfahrt)

Did you calculate holiday bonus? or in other words 13th or 13.5 month salary?

Coming from London everything will feel cheap as chips as well. From beer, to clothes, to sports clubs, housing, going out, eating out, transport - everything is quite a lot cheaper - even the speeding fines!!. Sometimes it feels like €1 over here has the spending power of £1 in the UK. Food is the worst in Europe, but apart from that the standard of living is very high.

Rubbish... or quatsch as they say here...

Was gonna say, I quite like the food here. Sure it might need a bit more types, but all in all, I've had far worse in yorkshire!

I come originally from Yorkshire & you should see my kids (50:50 UK/German) & the wife fighting over my Yorkshire Puds...

You´re talking about "English cuisine" ... right ?

English cuisine does not exist - that is the beauty of the UK situation - it means you have a huge international range of food. I think for eating out you guys in the big smoke do better, and there ARE a handful of places out here in the sticks that are pretty good. But compared to a modern European country the food is still totally crap both at supermarket and restaurant level. Fact.

(God I fucking love adding "Fact" on the end of a post - it's just such a tosser thing to do).

The original poster has saved me starting a thread on the very same topic, so forgive me slipping in my 2c

I've been offered a job in Münster working as an information systems consultant for €60K (for 13 months). I've used some of the online calculators and reckon I'd be getting about €3K per month into my hands (Steuerklasse III and one child, no religion). In Ireland (Dublin) I'm currently on €67K per year and get about €4K into my hands. My wife (who happens to be German, but from the other end of the country) does not work.

I reckon it'd be difficult to get that amount of net salary given the tax and social payments in Germany compared to Ireland (80K Brutto for a regular net monthly payment of 4K), but I also recognise that Germany's healthcare is a hell of alot better than Ireland's, not to mention public transport and all that.

I suppose the main thing I don't really know about is the general cost of living in that area, and what the differential would be between living in Ireland and Münster, and whether the 1000 yoyo drop would have a huge impact. I've visited Münster a couple of times now, and it certainly feels like a nice city, so a large part of my decision will be based on the quality of life and having a nice home for my family and for my son to grow up in.

But, if anyone can provide some sort of guidance or places to look to learn more about the cost of living compared to Ireland, and quality of life in Münster it'd be greatly appreciated (although I plan on making a separate post about finding places to live in Münster). I have also written to the Irish Embassy in Berlin to see if they have this kind of information, but the opinions of you people on the ground is probably more realistic. I need to give them a decision next week!

Oh, they have said they'd see about helping with the moving costs, and that the salary would be reviewed after 9 months, but I don't hold too much store on the second point

always negotiate the first offer ;-)
Mercer has good reports on cost of living comparisons, eg if Doublin is 100 and Munich is 95 then only 5% cut on your net salary would be reasonable.

Münster is the most liveable city world-wide!

Münster has been able to call itself the city with the highest quality of life in the world since October 2004. The metropolis in Westphalia is the first German city to have won the Gold LivCom Award in Niagara/Canada and came first in the category of cities with 200,000 to 750,000 inhabitants. Münster was thus able to beat cities such as Seattle/USA, Okayama/Japan, Changshu/China, Posen/Poland and Coventry/Great Britain in its premiere in this international cities’ competition ...

In general plan on take home of roughly 67-70 percent, taxes have gone up slightly since we moved. The 50% figure you keep hearing about applies only to single people. On 12 pays plan on around 3500 take home monthly. Less a 1000 a month rent plus 200 utilities and that leaves you 2300 a month to live on. Reasonable. Biggest adjustment I think will be renting, unlike the rest of the world in Germany you pay the equivalent of condo fees (nebenkosten) as well utilities are partially included in that. Also nebenkosten is settled up at the end of the year so use loads of water etc and you could get stuck with a big bill.

speedy, that was the second offer (was 55K!) and the moving costs have also been added last week. Am checking out Mercer now, cheers! Dublin's COL rate for 2007 was 99.6. Düsseldorf, being the closest city to Münster I could find in the top 50 list (position 46 compared to Dublin's position 16) comes in at 85.9. Looking at at 25% drop in take home pay, so there's some shortfall. Wonder if they have a figure for Münster buried anywhere...

miwild, yes, I'd seen that while googling like mad for information. It certainly makes it sound good, but as that press release said:


THM, I'm budgeting on a take home salary of 3000/month based on online calculators. Rents in Dublin are pretty high, even compared to what you are suggesting (about 1200 for a 2-bed Apt), so the figures you quote aren't too scary for me. Useful guideline figures nonetheless! (I do make my own beer though, so water costs are a concern! )

Thanks all!

Tough competition indeed . . .

Well, Düsseldorf is a bit pricier than Münster. From what I've seen the difference should be around 10%.

Guys,
let's forget the food for a while...

does anyone know if I can deduct the general cost of living for tax purpose (like rent, food, travelling costs, tel bills etc.)?
so let's say that the salary is 60k pa and I spend 15k pa for general expenses, can I pay tax only on the 45k?

paying taxes on 60k I get 38972.44
paying taxes on 45k I get 30215.15

so the 2nd one would be much more convenient...
is this possible?

for the calculation I used this:
http://de.biz.yahoo.com/pf/st/logere.html

thanks

If you are a resident in Germany and pay taxes in Germany, the answer is "no", living expenses are not tax deductible. If you have a place in Germany as a kind of second home/residence because you work here it will depend on where you would be liable to pay your taxes. You might be able to deduct the rent and some other costs for keeping up a second residence for the purpose of earning your lifelyhood as "werbungskosten" according to German tax law.

Cheerio

So if I keep my residence elsewhere do the figures in my previous post look correct?

thanks

That's not quite true is it, you can offset commuter travel expenses, the so called Pendler Pauschal, which allows you claim so much per kilometer for your journey to work, although there's a bit of a legal battle going on at the moment as the government tried to reduce it and it has been challenged under the constitutional law.

the answer in your case is no

here is why:

if you were working away from where you have your main place of residence ("haupwohnsitz" aka "lebensmittelpunkt") and were just commuting to Germany (e.g. on a weekly or monthly basis), you would be able to deduct your german rent, flights home, phone calls home, etc etc etc as "werbungskosten" under the "doppelte haushaltsführung" regime (there are limits e.g. you can generally only deduct rent on a 60sqm apartment or pro-rata share of your rent corresponding to 60sqm)

the trick is this: if you are married with children, your "lebensmittelpunkt" is automatically deemed to be where your wife and children are. so if you bring them to Germany, your main place of residence is deemed to be germany

of course you should always get professional tax advice and not rely on what you read on the internet...

The government want to reduce it so that it only comes into effect from 21km a day onwards.

I'm about to accept an offer for a job in Germany... so far, with all the posts I've read and the info from my potential employer, I've got a bit of an idea of taxes and so on. Now, I've got the contract, gross salary at 63000 Euro plus 15.5% bonus. On the contract, the gross salary is mentioned, but it is not equal to 63000/12. I've asked my potential employer and they said it is due to an annual multiplier of 12.97% for holidays and Christmas.
Of course, I'm going to call them to find out about it , but would like to get any info before doing so... thanks a lot for any help.

This sort of thing is quite normal in DE, and it's nothing to be afraid of. My employer pays out for holidays, Christmas, and a 2 hour 'extra' they expect us to work each week. Then there's another thing they pay (which I forget what it is, but it's small but better than a kick in the nuts), an optional bonus depending on the company's performance, and a stock plan with an automatic 5% return. This is all written in to the contract and apart from the optional performance bonus it's all paid every year.

Vermögenswirksamer Leistung?

And that has to run over 7 years or you have to pay all the deductubles back.6 years paying in and 1 year laying in the account but its a general 7 year ruling

60K for that area you speak of is somewhat lower to lower mid. Germany is expensive already...dont get roped into the poor social system here, if you dont have to.

However, you will have the option of using private health insurance (more than 3,800/month to qualify)...that is one good thing.