OK, so a good friend of mine and myself - we both hate our jobs. So, we want to know if, as Americans(non-EU citizens), we can start our own business. Both of us have been here less than 4 years each - I don't know if this matters or not.
Does anyone know anything about this topic or know a web site we can search for this type of information?
Thanks!
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Starting your own business as a non-EU national
Experiences and advice
You need an unbefristete Arbeitserlaubnis (unrestricted work permit) to do that, and to get that, you need an unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis (unrestricted residence permit). I needed seven years of residence to get that. Look at that neat, full-page sticker in your passport. Unless they checked, wrote or stamped "unbefristet" on it, you can't.
You can go to Poccistraße and explain that you want to start your own business. If you're very lucky, they may give you limited permission and add something to that effect in your passport. They'll restrict it as much as possible, so be very broad about the areas of work you need permission for. If you want to do graphics design, tell 'em "Graphics design, advertising, publishing and computers".
You can go to Poccistraße and explain that you want to start your own business. If you're very lucky, they may give you limited permission and add something to that effect in your passport. They'll restrict it as much as possible, so be very broad about the areas of work you need permission for. If you want to do graphics design, tell 'em "Graphics design, advertising, publishing and computers".
Thanks Bad Doggie - I had thought that because I have the stamp in my passport that says I can't be 'self employed'. I just wonder if you can change that(to which you responded). I'm off to Poccistrasse tomorrow morning, so I'll just mention it to them 'what does one have to do to start their own business?'. I'm in IT(actually both myself and my friend) and we hate our jobs - the whole package - IT - yuck - we're burned out and now want to chase the dream of working for ourselves - in Munich, there must be a dozen things(or more) that there's a need for, but don't exist. Can't tell you what they are, of course. But thanks for the input.
Another thing -- Germans are not noted for their love of competition, but the realpolitik of unemployment figures here mean you have a better chance if you're putting Germans to work. Mention that you're planning on starting a small office and will need to hire at least one or two part-timers for various things. You could mention Basis-Arbeiter during your start-up period with a hope to provide full employment to an office of 5-10.
Just make it plausible. If they ask any details, you're still working on the niche and needs, and it's not worth the time to do a full business plan if you wouldn't be allowed to do this anyway just based on your residence status.
Just make it plausible. If they ask any details, you're still working on the niche and needs, and it's not worth the time to do a full business plan if you wouldn't be allowed to do this anyway just based on your residence status.
QUOTE (BadDoggie @ Oct 13 2004, 10:10 AM)
You need an unbefristete Arbeitserlaubnis (unrestricted work permit) to do that, and to get that, you need an unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis (unrestricted residence permit). I needed seven years of residence to get that. Look at that neat,
Seven years?
Is that how long it takes for everybody?
I mean, lets say you got married to a german and moved here. Do you have to wait 7 years before you could open a business?
I thought it was permanent residence after 4 or 5 years (gotten automatically), and citizenship after 7 or 8 (harder to get, requires marriage to a german and/or passing a german test). I guess its different for different nationalities.
Surely we don't need Aufenthaltserlaubnisse anymore? You need 25 thousand euros for a GmbH and a Gewerbeschein if you want to sell something ( I once had one.) But the best person to ask is a lawyer.
I opened my own business recently and am not an EU citizen. I've only been here just over 3 years.
I went to Poccistrasse, explained what I wanted to do and they gave me the relevant forms and told me what else I needed to supply.
Once everything was filled in, it was sent to the Industriehandelskammer for evaluation and approval. Took about 6 weeks. They approved it and now I own a bar!!
Wasn't too difficult for me - but maybe I was just lucky...
I went to Poccistrasse, explained what I wanted to do and they gave me the relevant forms and told me what else I needed to supply.
Once everything was filled in, it was sent to the Industriehandelskammer for evaluation and approval. Took about 6 weeks. They approved it and now I own a bar!!
Wasn't too difficult for me - but maybe I was just lucky...
@Nicky
Is that the fees or the minimum amount you are required to invest in the buiness you plan to open? Please enlighten me. Thanks
QUOTE
You need 25 thousand euros for a GmbH
Is that the fees or the minimum amount you are required to invest in the buiness you plan to open? Please enlighten me. Thanks
I'm a USian. I got engaged, thoroughly pissing off one Hr. Dohn in the Ausländerabteilung of Regensburg's Einwohnermeldeamt, who had my deportation papers ready after a year of grudgingly giving me 1-month Aufenthaltsgenehmigung renewal stamps. When I got married, the same guy gave me 1-yr Aufenthaltserlaubnis stickers. After the 2nd or 3rd one, I was able to get a 2-yr sticker.
I never dreaded Poccistr. the way most people here seem to. When I moved to Toytown, I had over 6 years of residence behind me. The PocciPeople told me I could get my unbefristete in 8 months. That was 7 years after the first Aufenthaltserlaubnis was granted; the year of Aufenthaltsgenehmigungen didn't mean squat diddly.
At the 7-year mark, I went in, filled out a couple forms, handed 'em a bunch of marks and got a brand-new, shiny Aufentlhaltstitel. I also got the work restriction removed. What did I have to do for that? Fill out a short form asking for it to be removed.
And hand them 50 or 60 marks.
n.b. I came to Germany uninvited and unsponsored.
I never dreaded Poccistr. the way most people here seem to. When I moved to Toytown, I had over 6 years of residence behind me. The PocciPeople told me I could get my unbefristete in 8 months. That was 7 years after the first Aufenthaltserlaubnis was granted; the year of Aufenthaltsgenehmigungen didn't mean squat diddly.
At the 7-year mark, I went in, filled out a couple forms, handed 'em a bunch of marks and got a brand-new, shiny Aufentlhaltstitel. I also got the work restriction removed. What did I have to do for that? Fill out a short form asking for it to be removed.
And hand them 50 or 60 marks.
n.b. I came to Germany uninvited and unsponsored.
If you set up as a GmbH, then your liability is set at a maximum of €25K. That is - you are not personally liable for any money owed on your business. You pay €25k to set it up and if you go bust, then that money is used to pay off your debts - anything higher than that gets written off.
If you never go broke, then you're down €25k though...
If you never go broke, then you're down €25k though...
To set up a GmbH (like the USian "Inc." or UKian "Ltd."), you need to have €25K in the bank. This is the limit of your company's debt. You don't have to set up a GmbH, but that gives you both a corporate shield and a lot of respectability.
The Handelskammer fee is only about €50 or so, or was a couple years ago.
As far as the bar, you'll definitely be putting people to work, so no worries. You do know about the correct use of the cash register's training and worker keys, right? <wink wink nudge nudge>
The Handelskammer fee is only about €50 or so, or was a couple years ago.
As far as the bar, you'll definitely be putting people to work, so no worries. You do know about the correct use of the cash register's training and worker keys, right? <wink wink nudge nudge>
Thanks hazza and Doggie.
I am not worried about the 25K. What I want to know is if I move here permanently based on marriage, am I allowed to set up business immediately or do I have to wait X number of years? Thanks in advance for anyone who could answer.
I am not worried about the 25K. What I want to know is if I move here permanently based on marriage, am I allowed to set up business immediately or do I have to wait X number of years? Thanks in advance for anyone who could answer.
I got married and that took care of my residence problem quickly, but work was restricted. I got Dohn & Co. to write an exception in my passport that I could start an IT company. You'll need to convince a PocciPerson to do the same if you have a work restriction in your residence stamp or on your work permit papers. The regular work permit only lets you work for someone else.
another n.b.: I did this in 1994 and 2000; some things have changed.
another n.b.: I did this in 1994 and 2000; some things have changed.
Just to clarify some conflicting reports here...
To set up a GmbH you are supposed to have a minimum of €25k in the bank on the day you found/register the company
I say "supposed" because if you commit to a larger capital in the paperwork, say €30k, but only actually have €15k in the bank on the day, with a promise of €15k more on the way then this is usually acceptable. Whether you actually come up with the remainder is a different thing...
This is effectively your starting capital and also the level of liability of the company directors in the event that things go wrong.
The day after you register the company you can use the money, but it's recommended to use it on investment - buying tangible assets for the company is a good idea rather than squirrelling it away on business lunches...
YL6
To set up a GmbH you are supposed to have a minimum of €25k in the bank on the day you found/register the company
I say "supposed" because if you commit to a larger capital in the paperwork, say €30k, but only actually have €15k in the bank on the day, with a promise of €15k more on the way then this is usually acceptable. Whether you actually come up with the remainder is a different thing...
This is effectively your starting capital and also the level of liability of the company directors in the event that things go wrong.
The day after you register the company you can use the money, but it's recommended to use it on investment - buying tangible assets for the company is a good idea rather than squirrelling it away on business lunches...
YL6
Sorry 'bout that. I should've gone into that. I spent some time with my lawyer discussing various business forms and requirements.
If you are alone, you need the full €25K. If you have two "shareholders", about €10K each with a promise for the remainder within a reasonable amount of time is sufficient. For three, €5K each is about the minimum.
Basically, you need to have a minimum of €25K cash available to compensate your victim(s) should you totally screw up something. The more people involved, the less imperative the €25K in the bank because it's more likely that they can send a Gerichtsvollzieher a-knockin' on one of the partners' doors to collect in full. But it's unlikely they'll let you do less than €4-5K/partner.
To sum it up, since two of you are doing this, you may each be able to put up only about €7-10K and promise to get the account up to €25K in a "reasonable" time.
The best €200-400 you can possibly spend right now would be for a lawyer. E-Mail me and I'll give you the name of a great one, but his English ain't so hot.
n.b.3.: I'm not a lawyer, but I spent a lot of money talking to two of them, one of them an old buddy from Regensburg.
If you are alone, you need the full €25K. If you have two "shareholders", about €10K each with a promise for the remainder within a reasonable amount of time is sufficient. For three, €5K each is about the minimum.
Basically, you need to have a minimum of €25K cash available to compensate your victim(s) should you totally screw up something. The more people involved, the less imperative the €25K in the bank because it's more likely that they can send a Gerichtsvollzieher a-knockin' on one of the partners' doors to collect in full. But it's unlikely they'll let you do less than €4-5K/partner.
To sum it up, since two of you are doing this, you may each be able to put up only about €7-10K and promise to get the account up to €25K in a "reasonable" time.
The best €200-400 you can possibly spend right now would be for a lawyer. E-Mail me and I'll give you the name of a great one, but his English ain't so hot.
n.b.3.: I'm not a lawyer, but I spent a lot of money talking to two of them, one of them an old buddy from Regensburg.
Unless you are in a pretty risky trade, you probably don't need a GmbH in any case - at least in the first instance. A formal partnership would suffice - in German a "Gesellschaft der bürgelicher Recht" - "GbR" for short.
This is a formal agreeement between 2 or more partners to go into business and is a legal trading entity in its own right. Unfortunately it has unlimited liability, so the partners can lose their homes and clothes if it goes belly up.
YL6
This is a formal agreeement between 2 or more partners to go into business and is a legal trading entity in its own right. Unfortunately it has unlimited liability, so the partners can lose their homes and clothes if it goes belly up.
YL6
These are called Personengesellschaft, one of which is a Gesellschaft des Bürgerlichen Rechtes. There are three other forms: an Offene Handelsgesellschaft (OHG) where the patners are equally liable for all liabilities incurred by the Gesellschaft; and also a Kommanditengesellschaft, whereby there are two distinct groups of partners who are liable to differing exxtent; and thge last one is the Partnerschaftsgesellschaft (PartG, for Freie Berufe).
By entering a Gbr into the Habdelsregister, it then becomes an OHG. From an annual revenue of 350.000€ this becomes a requirement.
Generally Banks look more favourably at th OHG because they are listed on the handelsregister (Gbr not) and the owners are liable with their complete assets (GmbH not)
If you have no partnet you can also form an Einzelunternehmung.
By entering a Gbr into the Habdelsregister, it then becomes an OHG. From an annual revenue of 350.000€ this becomes a requirement.
Generally Banks look more favourably at th OHG because they are listed on the handelsregister (Gbr not) and the owners are liable with their complete assets (GmbH not)
If you have no partnet you can also form an Einzelunternehmung.
Wow! That is a lot of information there!
I was at Poccistrasse this morning trying to renew my work permit/residence permit. My work contract has not changed in the last 2 years(OK, I may get a little more money, but...) and they said I needed a form stating that I'm still working for the company(as if the past 3 months paycheck stubs aren't enough!). She said 'well, just because you worked for the last 3 months, doesn't mean you'll be working next month' - HELLO. I'm not a contracter, I'm an employee. I hope it's not that easy to get the boot. I should have pointed out that even if my employer 'let me go due to the touch economic situation' - he would still have to pay me until the end of the December.
Whatever, another trip to Pokey-strasse.
By the way, if you get a German citizenship, do you automatically have to give up your current(American) citizenship? I would never do that.
I was at Poccistrasse this morning trying to renew my work permit/residence permit. My work contract has not changed in the last 2 years(OK, I may get a little more money, but...) and they said I needed a form stating that I'm still working for the company(as if the past 3 months paycheck stubs aren't enough!). She said 'well, just because you worked for the last 3 months, doesn't mean you'll be working next month' - HELLO. I'm not a contracter, I'm an employee. I hope it's not that easy to get the boot. I should have pointed out that even if my employer 'let me go due to the touch economic situation' - he would still have to pay me until the end of the December.
Whatever, another trip to Pokey-strasse.
By the way, if you get a German citizenship, do you automatically have to give up your current(American) citizenship? I would never do that.
QUOTE
By the way, if you get a German citizenship, do you automatically have to give up your current(American) citizenship? I would never do that.
Then don't take German citizenship.
Section 349 (a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, as amended, states that nationals of the United States, whether by birth or naturalization, are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship.
1. Obtaining naturalization in a foreign state
(Sec. 349(a)(1) INA);
2. Taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state or its political subdivisions Sec. 349(a)(2) INA);
3. Entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349(a)(3) INA);
4. Accepting employment with a foreign government if:
(A) one has the nationality of that foreign state or
(B) a declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349(a)(4) INA);
5. Formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. consular officer outside the United States (Sec. 349(a)(5) INA);
6. Formally renouncing U.S. citizenship within the U.S. (but only in time of war) (Sec. 349 (a)(6) INA);
7. Conviction for an act of treason (Sec. 349(a)(7) INA).
####
The problem is defining whether intention means:
a) you did it in order to give up the USian citizenship, or
B) the act of doing it was proof of your intention to give up citizernship.
The US does NOT like dual-nationality and neither does Germany. Neither accept it. I was told this at the State Dept. and at the consulate during the early Clinton years -- when the world didn't hate the US so much. Go to the consulate or talk to an immigration lawyer[/I].
If you are a US citizen looking to start your own business here in Germany, you should also contact the American Chamber of Commerce located in Frankfurt. Here is a link to their website:
http://www.amcham.de/
They offer lots of useful information for Americans who want to do business in Germany. Enjoy!
http://www.amcham.de/
They offer lots of useful information for Americans who want to do business in Germany. Enjoy!
Don't forget, however, that the ACC's main interest is in having Germans do business with American companies, so that Euros flow into the US. They have less of an interest in helping local Americans contribute to the German economy...
YL6
YL6
The last post was 9 months ago. Anybody with recent experience on starting their own business as an American? Any new laws or changes in 2005?
As a US citizen how long do I have to wait before opening up a new business? Does it make any difference if you are married to a German? I am finally making a permanent move to Germany this month and would like to have my own business soon. Thanks
As a US citizen how long do I have to wait before opening up a new business? Does it make any difference if you are married to a German? I am finally making a permanent move to Germany this month and would like to have my own business soon. Thanks
I am a Canadian citizen currently working in Germany, I have considered the prospect of opening my own business as a means to greater independence. How difficult is it as a non-EU national to open a small business in Germany? What is the typical amount of capital required to open such an operation?
Topics merged by admin
Topics merged by admin
Germany and the US do not like Dual citizenship but they accept it.. I have dual citizenship... they do not promote it but they dont make you give up the citizenship of the other country... I have been a dual citizen for four years...
Hi all,
There are lots of very interesting points in this thread that are very helpful. However, I still have many questions about starting up a new business here.
Is there someone here with experience/knowledge of international online business that I can PM and ask my questions or should I go ahead and post them in here?
Regards,
CWH
There are lots of very interesting points in this thread that are very helpful. However, I still have many questions about starting up a new business here.
Is there someone here with experience/knowledge of international online business that I can PM and ask my questions or should I go ahead and post them in here?
Regards,
CWH
Seems to me that asking questions of public interest by private message defeats the object of a public forum...
Just thought I would check first
So, a lot of the stuff I have read in here has talked about needing a substantial amount of funding up front, at least to set up a Gmbh. The business idea that I have does not really involve any large investment, just a lot of my time initially. It is also not targeted to the German market, just the English speaking internet community so does not need to be based here at all if I can get away with it, but I live here. So I would rather try to just go ahead and get it working to start with and then if it works well, go through all the official setting up of a company. My concerns are of the business starting to work and the legal requirements not being in place.
My immediate concerns are that there is no easy to set up business bank account or address. This could be a problem.
The business address problem could be solved at a cost by using someone like Regus who you can rent a "virtual office" from for under €100 per month. With over 750 locations around the world, I could potentially have the business address anywhere I like.
That brings me on to my second big query - does it have to be Germany based because I live here?. I noticed that people talk about setting up a LTD in the UK for a 15 quid one-time fee. This is appealing as I could set up a Regus(or cheaper equivalent) virtual office there for the UK address. I notice that some said that the EU allows you to do this, so does this mean I can set up the business anywhere I like, even though I am living in Munich? This is the source of some of my confusion as I am not really sure on the legalities of what you can do here - i.e. does your business have to be "tied" to where you live?
My final query is that of bank accounts. Would it be uneconomical and seem unprofessional to use something like Pay Pal to take payments in the early stages before it is a registered business? Setting up a bank account for the business would be ideal, but surely you need a registered business before you can do this.
As you can probably tell, I am quite new to business techniques. Maybe I should take a course. I have looked around on the internet a fair bit the last few weeks looking for information and everyone just wants my money in return for potentially questionable advice. I am determined to at least try out my idea with as little up-front cash as possible and I believe it should be doable if I can put in the effort required.
I do have more questions once these hurdles have been overcome and if the business idea works.
So if there is anyone who can help on the above queries I will be grateful and be back for more Any help will be not be forgotten.
Regards,
CWS
So, a lot of the stuff I have read in here has talked about needing a substantial amount of funding up front, at least to set up a Gmbh. The business idea that I have does not really involve any large investment, just a lot of my time initially. It is also not targeted to the German market, just the English speaking internet community so does not need to be based here at all if I can get away with it, but I live here. So I would rather try to just go ahead and get it working to start with and then if it works well, go through all the official setting up of a company. My concerns are of the business starting to work and the legal requirements not being in place.
My immediate concerns are that there is no easy to set up business bank account or address. This could be a problem.
The business address problem could be solved at a cost by using someone like Regus who you can rent a "virtual office" from for under €100 per month. With over 750 locations around the world, I could potentially have the business address anywhere I like.
That brings me on to my second big query - does it have to be Germany based because I live here?. I noticed that people talk about setting up a LTD in the UK for a 15 quid one-time fee. This is appealing as I could set up a Regus(or cheaper equivalent) virtual office there for the UK address. I notice that some said that the EU allows you to do this, so does this mean I can set up the business anywhere I like, even though I am living in Munich? This is the source of some of my confusion as I am not really sure on the legalities of what you can do here - i.e. does your business have to be "tied" to where you live?
My final query is that of bank accounts. Would it be uneconomical and seem unprofessional to use something like Pay Pal to take payments in the early stages before it is a registered business? Setting up a bank account for the business would be ideal, but surely you need a registered business before you can do this.
As you can probably tell, I am quite new to business techniques. Maybe I should take a course. I have looked around on the internet a fair bit the last few weeks looking for information and everyone just wants my money in return for potentially questionable advice. I am determined to at least try out my idea with as little up-front cash as possible and I believe it should be doable if I can put in the effort required.
I do have more questions once these hurdles have been overcome and if the business idea works.
So if there is anyone who can help on the above queries I will be grateful and be back for more Any help will be not be forgotten.
Regards,
CWS
Why do you need a "company" at all? Do you also need an office?
If your name is Joe Blogs, then "Joe Bloggs" can be an business entity in his own right. You can even a have a pseudonym business name - "Excellent Internet Services", Joe Bloggs" for example. Official letter and invoices must make it clear that "Excellent Internet Services" is in fact Joe Bloggs", but in every other sense Joe Bloggs can open a business bank account, operate his business from home (assuming his landlord has no objections) and trade like any other business. Add an extra phone line (or get ISDN) at home and you have different numbers to distinguish your business from your private life...
A GmbH is probably uneccesary at the outset. Apart from the expense, all it offers you is financial protection if you go broke...
YL6
If your name is Joe Blogs, then "Joe Bloggs" can be an business entity in his own right. You can even a have a pseudonym business name - "Excellent Internet Services", Joe Bloggs" for example. Official letter and invoices must make it clear that "Excellent Internet Services" is in fact Joe Bloggs", but in every other sense Joe Bloggs can open a business bank account, operate his business from home (assuming his landlord has no objections) and trade like any other business. Add an extra phone line (or get ISDN) at home and you have different numbers to distinguish your business from your private life...
A GmbH is probably uneccesary at the outset. Apart from the expense, all it offers you is financial protection if you go broke...
YL6
May I recommend my lawyer, Juliane Scheer. She specializes in helping Ausländers with German bureacracy. After a year of trying (from America) to get the right info about residence permissions and about opening a business here (I'm opening an English-language secondhand-book shop in Munich in Feb) and getting virtually nowhere (I got nothing but contradictory info from the KVR and from the German Consulate in the US), I found her name on the Web, paid her €500 up front, and Bingo!, she took care of everything from then on. I can't say enough good things about her. Her office is on Landwehrstr. near Goethestr.
Juliane.Scheer@gmx.net
Landwehrstr. 55
80336 München
544 044 34
Another EXTREMELY helpful person is Karin Strixner who works for the Münchner Existenzgründungs-Büro. Her job is basically to help Ausländers start businesses in Munich. She is a fount of info about public loans and various municipal business resources.
karin.strixner@muenchen.de
Max-Joseph-Straße 2
Wingang Maximiliansplatz
München 80333
4th floor, room nr. 423
511-6759
Juliane.Scheer@gmx.net
Landwehrstr. 55
80336 München
544 044 34
Another EXTREMELY helpful person is Karin Strixner who works for the Münchner Existenzgründungs-Büro. Her job is basically to help Ausländers start businesses in Munich. She is a fount of info about public loans and various municipal business resources.
karin.strixner@muenchen.de
Max-Joseph-Straße 2
Wingang Maximiliansplatz
München 80333
4th floor, room nr. 423
511-6759
Additional info for Karin Strixner and Münchner Existenzgründungsbüro:
Website: www.meb-muenchen.de
Tel: +49 (0) 89 5116 762
Website: www.meb-muenchen.de
Tel: +49 (0) 89 5116 762
Direct extension for Karin Strixner is: +49 (0) 89 5116 759
Karin is the woman who I visited at IHK (Existenz-thingy) - she was most helpful and I recommend anyone wishing to start a business makes an appointment to see her.
WH
WH
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