Can foreigners vote in local elections in Germany?

Well, then, if it's not "required', then let's all just suck it up and let our "betters" do what what's "best" for us in their usual enlightened fashion.

I know that you are big into this pan-Europeanism, a corollary of which is anti-Americanism. He was himself German, and did good research. I would hardly call him a "revisionist"

You're wrong. Subjects of the British Empire had essentially the same rights as those born in Britain until 1962, including the right of abode. Mass immigration did not begin until after the Empire began to be dismantled, but there was no law preventing it.

Whoops. Forgot one. Atomkraft? Nein Danke! Buying nuclear power from the French, being held hostage to gas from the Russians and/or burning tons of brown coal domestically? Ja, bitte!

Puhleeze!

Record trends for British migration:


Those figures are for just one EU country. That's not what I would call "few" citizens, but maybe you have a different definition?

OK, but how many did it fact immigrate to the UK prior to 1946, and how many immigrated between 1946 and 1962?

European Parliamentary elections are held across the EU every 5 years.

167,000 EU people moved there in 2006 to live for a year or more. The UK population is about 60 million, so that is all of about 0.38% of the UK population, so, yes, that is few in percentage terms, which is what I meant.

Kay, how about finding something with states the percentage of EU citizens living in another EU country? That would be the relevant metric.

It's thought nearly 2 million Poles, Bulgarians and other citizens of new EU states have arrived in the UK in the last three years. That's 3.3%.

Those are not the equivalent of a US presidential election as they are for a supranational body. The relevant comparison is with the Bundestag elections in Germany and the House of Commons in the UK. Germans aren't voting for the House of Commons and UK citizens aren't voting for the Bundestag. No US voter votes for in elections for a supranational body.

Not all of them are still in the UK, and only Ireland and Sweden also allowed free movement for the EU-10's citizens from May 2004, so I would expect the other EU countries to have lower figures. Even 2 million is only 3% of the population. I think that you will find the overall EU figure is something like 1.5%.

Only the unlucky ones are going back. The rest are staying to save for a few years. Actually the trend is that young adults arrive and then they bring their children and/or parents over once they've settled. This is the same pattern as immigration from the former Empire, only it's happening much quicker. That's 3% within 3 years.

You are right about the rest of the EU, figures are much lower.

Wheel, any idea what those numbers would be if all countries had given free access to their labor markets to the EU-10 from May, 2004? Some have since then (I know Spain has). Of course, it makes sense that more people would be emigrating from Poland than from Germany. Also, keep in mind that Poland's birth rates plummeted after 1989, so I would expect a much smaller flow at some point in the future.

what oint are you trying to make? i am truly mystefied now. there are palpably heaps of non-German EU nationals here in Germany, a pattern that is repeated across the EU. Why do you think that we, as a constituency should be deprived of the vote?

No taxation without representation

There has been net immigration into the UK over the last fews years and there are issues surrounding that.
But you need to be slightly careful in counting all the arrivals but forgetting to subtract the departures.
Whether that is UK citizens emmigrating or (say) Poles going back to Poland.

In Germany, Eu Citizens can't vote for the state governments. Unless, they live in Hamburg, Berlin orr Bremen where the city IS the state.
I've not seen those city states lose any credibility or legitimacy. Oder?

I am bit mystified myself by your comments. Due to the principle of subsidiarity, not all lawmaking is done at the EU level anyhow, those who aren't EU citizens don't vote in supranational elections for the EU Parliament, and EU law recognizes that non-EUers can be treated differently in certain matters than EU citizens.

You say there are heaps of non-German EU nationals in Germany. What percentage of the population are we talking about? I know some Polish seasonal workers who spend a few months working in the agricultural sector here, then return to Poland to work. What about someone who works in Ireland but wants to maintain a residence in, say, Belgium where he spends three days a week? This can easily get very confusing. Expaticus put it based with the shareholder/nonshareholder analogy.

Saying you are deprived of a vote is false, since it presumes that you are being denied a right that does not in fact exist. I don't think that Germans will appreciate being told that they have to do things the UK way when there is no EU-wide uniform policy directive or law on this issue. If the majority of Germans want to allow either non-German EU citizens or any non-German resident to vote in state and federal elections, then, OK, the law on this issue will change; however, I doubt very strongly that a majority of Germans will support this, as it would allow non-German citizens to affect public policy on issues which are handled solely at the national level, perhaps long after they have left Germany. The nation state is the basis for a lot of things. Why haven't you taken on German citizenship if it is so important for you to vote at the state and federal level here?

The UK can do what it wants to do with regards to this issue, and Germany will do what it feels is in its best interests, not those of some UK expats who want to impose their system on another sovereign country. Has anyone polled Europeans on the concept of a United States of Europe? It is not a matter to be taken lightly.

Just curious, BTC, but do you support giving non-EUers the right to vote in state and federal elections in Germany as well as EUers?

What percentage of voters in those three cities are non-German EU citizens? Are you now moving away from your support for allowing everyone, i both non-German EU and non-EU, and even those here illegally, to vote for all levels of government?

MT, how come you haven't taken on German citizenship? You've been here a long time, and my understanding is that UK citizens have been able to obtain German citizenship and keep their UK citizenship as well. I don't see any excuse then. Why do you want the vote, but refuse to take on German citizenship?

Talking of depriving certain groups of the right to vote, Conqui, I understand that because some states in the US deprive you of the right to vote if you are in jail, and because African Americans are the ethnic group that seems to be in jail more than others, about 13% of them are continuously deprived of that right to vote. In total only 2% of the US population is deprived (for want of a better word) of that right. Interestingly I understand that this group tends to vote for Democrats. Coincidence?
In Germany certain criminals can be taken away their right to stand for elections ("passives Wahlrecht") if they are convicted for especially heinous crimes or if they have been convicted for certain political crimes like high treason etc.

And I think in Austria all foreigners who have been living there are allowed to vote for local governments ("Gemeinderat").

Finally: it is good to see that you would allow the UK to "do what it wants to do".

The right to vote on province level (influences federal legislation via Bundesrat) and federal level should indeed be reserved to citizens of this state. For long term residents, the door is open to citizenship.

In my understanding, a state is defined by its territory and its citizens. Souvereignty resides in the citizens who have the right to express their politcal will through elections (they thereby legitimize the political system). The voter mandates a party or a candidate to represent him for the period of a term (in German, Members of Parliament are also called "Mandatsträger"). OK, a lot of people don't seem to care about this important right, judging by low participation numbers in elections, but this won't get any better if the right to vote is not linked to citizenship any more.

There is a principle of accountability and feedback in this. If party X/a coalition is not deemed successful in the persuit of the ideas and goals advertised in their party program, they probably won't get reelected. Their program covers domestic and international issues. I think it is crucial that the citizens' will is expressed 1:1, especially when on the other hand, there is the EU which through harmonization of law and social systems takes over more and more power, making the national vote matter less in some areas.

We've got Schengen, and there is the notion of EU citizenship, but there are also undeniable national interests which need to be expressed and then balanced. BTW, the Lissabon reformed EU Treaty makes some exceptions: The basic rights charta is not binding for Great Britain (and Poland). Could this have anything to do with the British government having to take into account the notorious euroskepticism of its citizens (and fearing a negative voters' feedback)?

When given a chance to vote, the citizens of other EU countries (not just the UK and Poland) don't seem to enamoured of the way it's going either. To which the politicians' answer is: don't let them vote.

But EU foreigners in Berlin , Hamburg and Bremen ALREADY influence federal politics via the city elections, which are state elections and thus ultimately effect the composition of the Bundesrat.
The path to citizenship in Germany is steep, as I don't think that the state or politicians acually like the idea of migrants or of course domestic born non citizens to actually gain citizenship.

You've asked twice now Conq. But I'm not going to discuss my own personal citizenship / residency issues here.

MT, so EU citizens should flock to those City states to give their votes more weight and secretely undermine the system.

We shouldn't forget that many people who are not convinced of the efficiency of representative democracy prefer to persue their interests and ideas through Bürgerinitiativen or NGOs. Citizenship is not required to do this.

Nah, don't think EU Citzens should stampede to the north city-states (beer is rubbish )
I'm just pointing out that the system is contradictory anyway.

And you are right that some stuff can be better achieved through groups and organisations outside the bourgeois legislature.
Indeed I know Germans who actively reject the legitimacy of elections and don't vote.
Plus there are of course the millions and millions of voters in western liberal democracies who don't vote as too many of the parties are offering the same policies.

What about Jever and Berliner Kindl?

Amen.

actually yes.

But one step at a time. We have to sort out the terms of EU nationality before it can be framed with reference to immigrant groups. It sees to me to be ridiculous that as an EU citizen I can vote for the EU parliament and for the authority that gathers my rubbish and lights my streets but I cannot vote for the state or national parliament that taxes me. It seems to me there is a quid pro quo issue here.

have lived here almost three years and have recently formalised that into a permanent arrangement. I take an interest in national german politics and in the new year will probably join the SPD as an activist for the coming elections. I would say that shows I do indeed have some connection to Germany and commitment to the political process - probably moreso than many Germans.

When I used to be a Labour activist in London, I campaigned alongside a Lithuanian, an Austrian, a Swede and an Italian who were Labour party members but were barred from voting. By contrast many of the people we were canvassing were Maltese, Irish, African, Bangladeshi, Hong Kong Chinese, Australian, Canadian or New Zelanders who were entitled to vote here the moment they set foot on British soil.

I would propose a EU treaty framing an EU national identity that conferred full voting rights across all member states fr all EU citizens.

Once that treaty was fully implemented in all member states, I would like to see a reform that links voting rights for all non_EU residents with taxation. IE if the individual is resident long enough to be judged as taxable in Europe, they should be enotled to vote in elections.

wow - thank you all for this information. I am off to see the results of the vote... even though I could not vote... really UPSET. they want to close the freibad and the school. next will be the kindergarten. I just feel so helpless not being able to state my mind in the "free country" just because I am a foreigner. I pay my taxes - never relied on unemployment money or social help. we just built a house here and won't be moving for a while.

why are the german laws so difficult???
I am proudly south african and can and never want to be a german.
I don't want to become german just to be able to practice what is my basic right.

now I am wondering "what am I doing here?" - get the feeling sometimes that germany's laws were formed with the view that all foreigners are not welcome. You can pay tax - no problem... but you have no right to be here... - period.

Funny that...cos that's just the way it is.

nadia, just wondering, can Germans vote in South Africa? How about Germans in the UK? Or in the US?

I partly understand the frustration of not being able to vote even though one is affected by political developments. What I don't agree with is the "no taxation without representation" argument. As a matter of fact, everyone benefits from taxes spent on civil service (like tax office ), cultural institutions, infrastructure etc. And if you include social security contributions in taxes, you will also benefit should you need it.

Paying taxes is great, but cannot be the basis for a right to vote – that would mean returning to census suffrage. Do you think unemployed have a lesser right to vote?

Nadia, would I be able to vote if I lived in South Africa as a German? EDIT: Mariposa beat me to it.

South Africa: Electoral Act

... Any South African citizen in possession of an identity document may apply for registration as a voter ...

... The Chief Electoral Officer may not register a person as a voter if the person is not a South Africa citizen ...

nadia, the same is true in every EU nation (although you would be entitled to vote in the UK as you are a Commonwealth citizen). Laws such as these, restricting voting to only citizens exist worldwide, even in RSA.

I am new to this forum, but I have a question for those of you who are upset that you cannot vote in local elections.

Are foreigners where you come from allowed to do it?

I am American, so I don't really know about the EU. However here in the US, as a citizen ( of the entire nation ) you can vote in Federal Elections. You must be a registered voter in local municipalities however, to be allowed to vote there. You then, cannot vote somewhere else. Likewise foreign residents, since they are not citizens. Have no right to vote, period. No matter how long they reside. My grandparents were a perfect example. They never became American citizens, and therefore could never vote. They had all the other rights, but not the right to vote.

This is a matter for a separate discussion; however, I note that you are singling out the US for a policy which is followed in many other countries, including some in the EU, i.e, prohibiting those in prison from voting. It applies to people convicted of felonies, which are serious crimes. There are two relevant US Supreme Court rulings that deal with the issue you have raised with regards to race: Richardson v.s. Ramirez and Hunter v.s. Underwood. Perhaps you should read those decisions. One other thing you may want to investigate is how many Democratic-controlled legislatures passed the laws which forbid felons from voting and restricted African-American voting rights for decades. Hint: you won't like the answer. Will you also accuse Democrats of racism?

From what I have read, the 13% figure you cite is for African-American males, not all African-Americans.


Not familiar with this particular statute; however most people would agree that crimes such as rape and murder are heinous.


That is also the case in Germany. Austria makes its own decisions as a sovereign state.

those of us who are non-German but from other EU nations *can* vote in local elections. We can also vote for the European Parliamentary elections. But we are barred from voting for the Bundestag or Länder governments here in Germany. The same absurd situation occurs for Germans resident in the UK, Poles in Denmark, Swedes in France etc. It just seems inconsistent that's all though I figure it is an anomally that will e addressed in time.

Nadia, voting in German elections is not your right. There is no legal basis for claiming that you have a right to vote in Germany. TBH, if someone is adamant that they do not ever want to obtain German citizenship, I feel that person has no business complaining about being unable to vote for the Bundestag. If you want the same right to vote in Germany that a German citizen has, become one!

Incidentally, you have/had every right to express your concerns about these local issues you cite. No one is preventing you from "stating your mind" in Germany on these issues.

The question about whether prisoners should have the right to vote while incarcerated is a sticky one. Many prisons in the US (maybe most) are located in very small towns. If you have a large prison in your town, the inmates often outnumber the other town residents. Obviously, it would not be acceptable in those cases to allow prisoners to vote in local elections. Maybe on the national level it would be a different story.

There are (were?) some states that disenfranchised people for life if they had ever been in prison. Which is also unacceptable.

As for foreigners not being allowed to vote in the US, that's a problem for many communities, too. In my middle-sized suburb, fully 6% of the residents are from Somalia. The city council recently tried to cut funding for some programs that mostly affected the Somali and other immigrant groups. Fortunately, there was an uproar from the citizens and the budget proposal was changed. But the immigrant population would seem to be an easy target for a local government looking to save money. (The motives of the citizens trying to retain the programs for immigrants wasn't entirely altruistic, either. They wanted to keep the crime rate down and were afraid that cutting the programs would lead to more theft, burglary, and other property crimes.)

I think Munich City Council should provide bags with my tax money so that people can easily collect up the dog shit.

My neigbour, that thinks exactly the same as me, we shop in the same shop, drink in the same pub etc. thinks exactly the same.

Both pay tax. I can vote. She can't

"If you want the same right to vote in Germany that a German citizen has, become one!"

Certainly, although, it is my understanding that Germany doesn't recognize dual citizenship. Another political matter altogether.

EXACTLY!

Your fairy godmother got to work on that one pretty sharpish MT - the City of Munich sent me the usual advance notice about dog licence payment the other day, and enclosed a free, complimentary, attractive and stylish poop bag. Ta-dah.

Free, crusoe? Or have they hiked your license renewal .05 cent to pay for it?

Although I do believe that Germany should permit dual citizenship in all cases (there are some cases where it does) it seems to be a bit of stretch to insist that Germany do so simply to accomodate non-Germans who want to vote in Bundestag elections. If the right to vote in federal elections is that important to a non-German citizen living in Germany, they should become a German citizen. If a non-German citizen "never wants to become German" they should not complain if the majority of Germans do not want to give that person the right to vote in Bundestag election since that right is a right of citizenship. If non-German citizens are permitted to vote in Bundestag elections would be, IMHO, a real slap in the face to those naturalized Germans who have shown a huge commitment to this country by going through the process of getting naturalized and giving up their original citizenship in order to be able to vote for the Bundestag.

The path to being eligible to to vote for the Bundestag is clearly enunciated, so everyone knows what they must do in order to gain that eligibility. Those who wish the change this law must convince the German voters that it should be changed. I believe that a majority of Germans would oppose allowing non-German citizens to be able to decide who sits in the Bundestag. I am not certain whether a majority would oppose dual citizenship.

It is my understanding that the UK denies its own citizens who live overseas the right to vote in the UK at all if they have not been registered within the past 15 years, and if the UK citizen still living overseas left the UK within the past 15 years but was under 18 at the time, they are barred from voting in the UK unless their parent or guardian was registered! I have yet to see anyone complain about that in this thread, and I think that law is really an injustice.

BTC, I have a couple of questions:

Do you still vote in UK elections for the House of Commons despite no longer being resident in the UK?

Do you support, as does MT, allowing those in Germany illegally to vote in elections at all levels, to include EU supranational elections?

Frankly the whole issue of voting across the whole EU needs to be sorted out as there are anomalies in each nation - though I don't think the one you cite above is that unfair. Wouldn't it strike you as bizarre that a Brit who has lived in Munich for 16 years had the right to vote back home in East Lothian, Llandudno or Ealing? What possible committment could such an individual have to the 'home' constituency? Wouldn't it be more sensible to see that their real political interest should now be Munich?

A UK citizen who has lived in Munich for 16 years and has not been naturalized as a German despite being able to keep their UK citizenship and despite being eligible for naturalization as German yet demands to be able to vote in state and national elections as only German citizens do is what strikes me as odd. If that person is that committed to Germany, why do they willfully refuse to become naturalized as a German citizen if they want the same right to vote in national elections that German citizens have? Not even the UK would allow a German citizen resident in the UK who refuses to get naturalized as a UK citizen to vote in national elections, yet you cite the UK as the Vorbild on this issue!

As for the UK citizen's right to vote in local constituencies, I think most agree that taking away a citizen's right to vote simply because they are no longer resident in the country is, to put it mildy, very undesirable, and a terrible precedent as well as being an awful way to treat one's citizens. I also fail to see how you can say whether or not the UK citizen who formerly resided in Ealing is still committed to that locality. Maybe they have family there and plan to move back. Who knows? It is a very grave matter to take away preexisting suffrage on these grounds- it seems to me to be a de facto partial stripping of citizenship. You wouldn't want the UK to bar you from returning on the basis that you have been gone too long and no longer are committed to the country, would you?

BTW, I note that your own right to reside in Germany is on the basis of your UK citizenship, i.e., on the basis of the nation state. Furthermore, by carrying a UK passport and using it for foreign travel you accept that the nation state is the basis by which foreign travel and residence are either permitted or not.

Left a little something out of the previous post:

You wouldn't want the UK to bar you from returning on the basis that you have been gone too long and no longer are committed to the country, would you?

should be the following:

You wouldn't want the UK to bar you from returning, or, if you did return, from voting again in the UK on the basis that you have been gone too long and no longer are committed to the country and/or constituency, would you?

As far as I'm aware, British citizens only lose their right to vote if they don't register to vote by post. Merely no longer living in the country doesn't lose you your right to vote. As long as you bother to register you can keep voting. I didn't, because I don't care enough, but I could have done. It is now too late as I have been out for over 20 years.

I don't per se support the right to vote for illegal immigrants.
I think migrants who are criminalised should have their status put on a regular footing.
Then, if they are long term residents, should be allowed to vote like anyone else.

If Osama Bin Liner turned up in Munich would I want him to have the right to vote?
No. I'd want him to stand trial in an open court for the crimes he has committed and if convicted, sent to prison.