Can foreigners vote in local elections in Germany?

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Tod bei Abschiebung

Sudanese starb nach rabiater Behandlung im Flugzeug
Abschiebung in den Tod: Wegen fahrlässiger Tötung eines 30 Jahre alten Sudanesen, der infolge rabiater Behandlung nach dem Start in Frankfurt erstickte, hat die Staatsanwaltschaft am Freitag Anklage gegen drei Beamte des Bundesgrenzschutzes (BGS) erhoben.

Wie die Ermittlungen ergaben, sollte der bereits seit einigen Jahren in der Bundesrepublik lebende Aamir Ageeb am 28. Mai 1999 gegen seinen Willen nach Khartum zurückgebracht werden. Grund dafür war, dass der Sudanese nach Scheidung von seiner deutschen Ehefrau keine Aufenthaltsgenehmigung mehr besaß.

Da Ageeb bei den ihn begleitenden BGS-Beamten im Alter zwischen 31 und 38 Jahren als "ausgesprochen ausreiseunwillig" galt, war er an Händen und Füssen gefesselt worden. Darüber hinaus wurde er fixiert an seinem Sitz in der letzten Reihe des Lufthansa-Airbusses. Zudem hatte man ihm noch einen Motorradhelm verpasst. Trotzdem soll der Afrikaner ungebrochen weiter Widerstand geleistet haben, worauf einer der BGS-Männer - laut Anklage - dessen Kopf nahm und ihn so nach unten drückte, dass das Opfer bewusstlos wurde.

An Bord der Maschine waren zwar drei Ärzte aus Ägypten, die Wiederbelebungsversuche unternahmen, doch ihre Hilfe kam zu spät. Mit der Leiche landete der Airbus zwei Stunden später außerplanmäßig in München. Wie die Obduktion ergab, war der 30-jährige Sudanese durch die Kopfbehandlung erstickt. Darüber hinaus hatte er Rippenbrüche erlitten, die nach gerichtsmedizinischer Feststellung aber eindeutig Folge der Wiederbelebungsmaßnahmen waren.

Zuständig für Strafverfahren um Polizei-Übergriffe, führte Staatsanwalt Wilhelm Möllers umfangreiche Ermittlungen, die bis ins Ausland führten. Vernommen wurde unter anderem eine Zeugin aus Kanada, die als Passagier an Bord war. Um den Fall zu klären, fand außerdem an der Lufthansa-Basis eine Rekonstruktion der Ereignisse im Flugzeug statt.
Der Anklage zufolge hätten die BGS-Beamten wissen müssen, dass die von ihnen praktizierte Behandlung riskant war. Alle drei hatten bereits an mehreren so genannten Rückführungsmaßnahmen teilgenommen. Die Beamten seien auch entsprechend geschult worden, hätten sich im konkreten Fall aber nicht an dienstliche Anweisungen gehalten, so die Anklage. Darin sieht Möllers eine Verletzung der Sorgfaltspflicht mit tödlicher Folge.

Nach Auskunft der Staatsanwaltschaft haben sich die BGS-Männer zu dem Vorfall bisher nicht geäußert. Die drei Beamten sind nach Angaben des BGS nicht vom Dienst suspendiert, haben aber seit dem Todesfall nicht mehr an Abschiebungen mitgewirkt. Ein Termin für den Prozess, der vor dem Frankfurter Schöffengericht stattfindet, steht noch nicht fest.
(Norbert Leppert und Volker Mazassek - Frankfurter Rundschau - 16.02.2002)

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Anyway, back to the issue. What do ordinary Germans gain from there existing a large disenfranchised section of the regular, legal population?
I'd say they gain nothing. it just allows certain sections of politics and the state to have a whipping boy and divide the population against each other.

No one is disenfranchised if they never had the legal right to vote in the first place, nor any realistic expectation of being able to vote in the national elections of a country in which they are not a citizen (see the example of South Africa above). I fail to see how not having the right to vote in another country's national elections, which is the norm for the vast majority of countries in the world, is "dividing the population". You should learn to respect Germany's sovereignty instead to demanding that a country of which you aren't even a citizen simply let every person in who wants to come here illegally and further demanding that those who are living here illegally be allowed to vote for all levels of government! This country has obviously been good to you or you would be back in London. Germans lose if their vote is diluted.

When I came here on my US passport, I did so knowing that I did not have the right to vote here. Germans who move to the US know that they don't have the right to vote in the US, except for the Rockville, MD City Council and possibly the Montgomery County Board of Supervisors.

If you are looking for a salient issue, I suggest advocating that non-EU foreigners who are already legally resident in Germany (and those in the future who would otherwise be legally resident) get the right to do temporary work. Bettter yet, how about Freedom of Movement and free trade between the US, the EEA Member States, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Singapore, the UAE, and perhaps a few other countries? Stuff like that just doesn't fit the Marxist-Leninist Five-Year Plan, right?

Longer term freedom of movement for all? Why not?

Don't split hairs on the grammar. The 10% of the German population, 20% of the Munich population, 30% of the population of my local council Bezirk are then UNfranchised.
That's the LEGAL, tax paying population.
Many were BORN here, most are here for the long haul. Why can't they vote?

"Soverignty"? Whose soverignty?
Doesn't everyone on society deserve a voice in determining how their society is run?
Or are some more equal than others?

The sky didn't fall down when I last voted for Munich City Council.
Why should it do if I voted for the Bundestag?
Why should the sky fall down if my Turkish neighbour voted for the council as well? Or the Bundestag for that matter?

If they were born in Germany what is stopping them from getting German citizenship? Two of my best friends along with their mom got German citizenship a few years ago, it was no problem at all. It was only a matter of formality.

The money.
The formal language qualifications.
Getting out of military service if male Turkish citizen.
The restrictions on dual citizenship / inheritance issues.
Loss of cultural identity?

are the first of several issues that spring to mind.
Inddeed I believe Conq. was first on this thread to raise the issue of the problems of trying to become a naturalised German citizen.

My friends went to school in Germany, they did not even have to take the German test. Their mom did, but it was not a problem. If you cannot even be bothered to learn German, why do you expect the right to vote? I do assume that most people born in Germany would speak German though.

As for getting out of the military service... well you cannot just get the rights of being a German without the duties too.

On dual citizenship, I do think those regulations should be loosened a little... My friends kept their Indian citizenship for so long mostly because that way they would not need a visa to travel back for vacation and they had an unlimited Aufenthaltsgenehmigung for Germany anyway.

Turkey is the key example but it applies to other countries too:
They aren't that keen on their citizens renouncing their citizenship so set high hurdles to be able to giv it up.
For Turkish males this includes substantial payments of money if they haven't already done military service.

Oh you mean Turkish people have to pay Turkey money if they want to take up another country's citizenship? That is the first time I have heard of that (not saying it isn't true, just that I have never heard of it before). In that case, isn't that a problem that should be addressed by the Turkish government?

Don't flip the script, MT. Here is what was said:



Note how many of those problems are on the Turkish side. Maybe some things can be worked out between the two governments.

Turkish citizens who have lived in Germany their whole life aren't the only people affected here, MT, so it's time for you to stop making pathetic excuses. You want the rights and benefits of citizenship without doing what many other legal immigrants or lomg-time residents have done- get naturalized. I reiterate that I support dual citizenship for all, including Germans who take on a second or third citizenship. I am eligible for at least one another country's citizenship.

As for a loss of cultural identity, you are curiously unworried about Germany losing its own cultural identity if unlimited of numbers can come here illegally under your ridiculous plan (if it were to come to fruition) and get amnestied after they already enjoy voting rights! Why is it that you are so nonplussed about Germany's risks?

I don't know how many Turkish citizens have gotten naturalized here in Germany, but they followed the rules and did it. Others can do it as well. The rules are clear, now those who want the rights and benefits of citizenship can follow them to naturalization.

Yes Mariposa, it's been raised on here a number of time before and IIRC confirmed by a Turkish (ex?) citizen posting on here.
It's the third party government being a pain for sure but why should they change their practices to lose citizens?

Germany could just say, it's OK, we don't expect any formal evidence that you have given up a foreign citizenship.

What's Germany's identity?
Loden Frey hats or Adidas sneakers?

The sovereignty of the Federal Republic of Germany.

Let me ask you this- why wasn't that agreed to as part of Freedom of Movement? Because no country wanted it. You are way out of the mainstream on this, MT.

Those who were born here beginning in 2000 will generally not have this problem; all those born before Jan. 1, 2000 are now either eligible to apply for German citizenship or will be in less than two weeks.

Not even your own country allows all noncitizens to vote, MT. To demand that Germany allow it is illogical. Perhaps you need to ask yourself why countries don't just let all noncitizens vote. Think Germans can vote, or would even expect to be able to do so, in Turkey?

In case you haven't noticed, there are some instances in which countries do recognize that it is legal and appropriate to treat people differently. You support progressive tax rates rather than a flat tax, right? You take a murderer's freedom away, right? What's next, are you going to demand that Germany make noncitizens eligible for political office at the national level as well?

"My" country? What a load of tosh and piffle.
The "soverignty" of the BRD is not a neutral thing. States, like the law aren't "neutral".

Let people become citizens and / or let them vote as it is.
20% of the LEGAL population of Munich are not fully franchised.
Expereince shows that extending the franchise does not cause the sky to fall down.

Who would I rather have as president?
A bosses stooge like Kohler or my long time Turkish neighbour who does the back shift at the car factory?
Jaysus, that's a tough one.

I'm not sure why you have such a difficult time understanding civics in Germany. You have lived here a lot longer than me, and you, like many other non-German residents of Germany, are eligible to apply for German citizenship. If you want to vote in national elections and in state elections in Bavaria, show the appropriate respect for this country and its democracy and get naturalized.

It's not about or my status, which I am not going to discuss here, it's about the general situation.

How should one show "respect" for the state?
Has the state "earned" respect?

What about the Germans that can't stand "their" state? Deport them maybe?

By following the laws, participating in the democratic process to effect changes you feel are appropriate, and respecting the values of the society you live in, i.e., respecting the rights of others in the society.
You don't voluntarily waive your constitutional protections just because you don't like the current composition of the government, do you? It's a two-way street with the rule of law, MT.

I often don't like what usually passes for economic policy here, but I pay taxes, follow the law, and respect the fact that a majority of people here want Germany to be a "social state".


They can participate in the democratic process and advocate change unless they are barred by law. You can participate in the political process as well, MT. I don't need to tell you how- you already know. There are many instutitions in a democratic society (z.B., freedom of speech) through which you can participate in the democratic process, which is more than just casting a vote.

I don't meant to butt into your dialogue, however I feel I can add a little bit to your argument.
I have both been an "at will, employee" and have worked under minimum wage as an agricultural worker ( agricultural workers, as well as some "hospitality" employees are not always covered by minimum wage ) it is especially prevalent here in the South where I live. Most jobs down here are "at will jobs", and I know how awful that can be. An employer can fire you simply because they don't like the way you comb your hair--sounds funny but it's not.

As far as Republicans supporting amnesty for illegals--that's surely not what I read in my local papers. Like you say, McCain is an exception. There was an article only today, how the courts were not going to challenge the State of Arizona, in it's harsh treatment of illegals. Conquistador you must remind monk, that the US does not have a centralized government like most European countries. All the laws are made on a local level.

Kenny, although the US isn't as centralized as MT's home country (the UK) it's very inaccurate to say all laws are made at the local level there, especially because of federalism and the interstate commerce and supremacy clauses. It's possible that MT's UK roots (the UK has historically been very centralized) have had an effect on his thinking in this regard.

MT, it occurs to me that only male German citizens must do national service here in Germany, so those who have lived in Germany their whole lives but are not German citizens are exempt. Do you see the problems and paradoxes inherent with giving all noncitizens in Germany the citizen's right to vote for all levels of government while simultaneously exempting them from national service, which is a requirement of citizenship for German males? If you argument is that noncitizens should be able to vote by dint of residence in Germany (a principle you have already undermined by stating you want to allow those here illegally to vote at all levels as well) how are you going to justify noncitizen voting that affects foreign policy, as national elections for the Bundestag obviously do? Surely you agree that it is an awful infringement on Germany's sovereignty to insist that noncitizens be permitted to decide Germany's foreign policy, which pertains to issues outside of the country?

It seems that this thread has drifted somewhat but based on the original question here's my twopennyworth.
I'm a UK citizen and have lived here 20 years. I have not only voted at both communal and Kreis (district) level, but I've stood as a candidate. By a short margin I wasn't elected, but I'm a co-opted member of various local government committees.
I may not vote at the Länder or Bund level, i.e. at state or federal level. This used to bug me but doesn't any longer, as there are lots of advantages, and anyway there are more ways than one to skin a cat. I'm currently pushing for an action group to lobby on behalf of foreign resident's needs, in effect to give us a voice where we presently have none.
I rejected the taking on of German citizenship at a time when it would have meant giving up my British affiliations. Not because of any overweening loyalty to the UK, but because I found it nonsense to give up citizenship of one EU member state to replace it with that of another EU member state. I would consider replacing my British status with European status is that were possible, but so far it's not and I'm not sure if I'd actually do it. Since that time Germany has revised its position on dual status citizenship, but I haven't checked out the new situation enough to be able to make a decision for me, let alone advise anybody else.
It seems to me that all the fun (and all the relevance to an "alien") is at local level in any event. To cause change at national level you'd need to join a party - and the party system's have the same obstacles as the electoral system, i.e you can only vote at local level. But if any of you are interested, get stuck in !

well the outcome of the vote in the village was GREAT 65% voted against the merging of the villages. The businesses will save cause we don't have to change our postal codes, street names and village name!

I got into the newspapers complaining that its pretty unfair that we foreigns with no EU affiliations are treated as 3rd class citizens.
We are sometimes more educated than some germans - We pay our taxes - work hard, take part in social activities, do the integration process including the state courses, we learn the Germany History and to top it all we learn to speak German fluently AND we still not "integrated enough".

we still the AUSLÄNDER! I feel so degraded by that word.
Has anyone heard of a study that examines the effect of the "A" word on foreigners ?

No taxation without represenation.

Doesn't it not only roll of the tounge so well; but also as a concept.

Top of my head for anyone south of the Weisswurst Äquator:

"Wer ko, der ko".

Integrated the whole community.
The right to vote in the whole community.

Not true, non-EUers are still entitled to constitutional protections. Furthermore, you cannot be a "third-class citizen" if you are not a German citizen to begin with. BTW, why do you make an issue of educational levels? That isn't a legal criterium for voting, and it comes off as sounding as though you want to deprive German citizens who aren't well-educated of their right to vote.

So why then do you refuse to take on German citizenship if you really want to vote and have such close ties to this country?


What German word do you propose to substitute for "Ausländer" to describe someone who is not a German citizen and comes from another country?

So integrated that you refuse to take on German citizenship, although you can keep your UK citizenship? Since you have also openly advocated allowing those in Germany illegally to vote for all levels of government, do you also claim that they are "integrated"?

Keep in mind that the demand of the then-UK citizens who lived in the 13 colonies and coined the slogan "no taxation without representation" was actually to be able to tax themselves at a time when few UK citizens resident in the UK could vote at all!

You knew, prior to coming to Germany, that you would not be able to vote in German national elections since you were not a German citizen. Yet you came anyway.

The lack of any cogent argument by people who refuse to obtain German citizenship yet demand the right to vote in German national elections is really pathetic.

MT, you might want to read Articles 38 and 51 of the Grundgesetz. BTW, based on 1990 rulings of the BRD Constitutional Court, it seems your demand is unconstitutional. How do you think it would fare in a national plebiscite or a parliamentary vote?

[quote name='nadia-south-africa' date='Dec 20 2007, 8:54 pm' post='1154732']
We pay our taxes - work hard, take part in social activities, do the integration process including the state courses, we learn the Germany History and to top it all we learn to speak German fluently AND we still not "integrated enough".

Be fair - the same happens in other places, especially in small communities, but not only there. People I used to know on the island of Anglesey, North Wales, would refer to the "family from Manchester" and look at me askance when I pointed out that the grandparents were from Manchester. We've lived in the Mosel Valley since 1994, I'm British, my wife from Düsseldorf. She's no more accepted than I am. I'm also sure that if I moved to South Africa I'd find the same situation.

A mixed bag of snippetts:

What? The USA has federal, state and local laws?
You'll be telling me they speak English next!

For about the fifth time on this thread Conq. speculate or mud throw all you like on my personal citizenship statuts,
I am NOT going to discuss it here.
Participating in civil society is more than just voting and I am engaged in the community for sure.

It is no use pretending they are not there or simply deporting people.
There ARE illegal immigrants in western industrialised democracies.
And those societies need to respond to the issues.

It is on the left of the mainstreal press in Germany but I read by chance an editorial in the taz from earlier in the week.
In which it was specifily suggested that the CDU does NOT want better integration and more people to take up citizenship becasue they are on the whole not inclined to vote CDU.

Whatever the citizens of Western democracies decide to do about those residing illegally, I think it's fair to say that the response definitely should not be to allow those residing illegally to vote.

BTW, since you support noncitizen voting at all levels in Germany, do you also support a right for noncitizens to stand for elections at the national and state levels, including those here illegally, i.e., would you make it permissible for a UK citizen or someone from any country who is here in Germany illegally to win election at the national level, e.g., a Chancellor MonksTown?


Does the Taz have a bug at CDU headquarters?
I don't see how someone writing for the Taz would have access to the policy meetings of the CDU; and furthermore, I doubt CDU politicians are rushing to Taz journalists to leak anything of note.

Illegal immigrant by definition lead a clandestine existence and aren't "on the books".
I don't support the right of illegal immigrants to vote, because it is simply a contradiction of terms.

I support there being paths available to people out of illegality and the end of one path being the possibility to become a regular resident and / or citizen.
And anyone resident for X time being allowed to vote.

IIRC, an Education Minister under one of Blair's earlier governments was also a German citizen.
Oh look, sky fell down there!

MT, that is not what you said earlier on this thread when I asked you what your stance was.

You can try to talk out of both sides of your mouth if you like, but if a person has no legal basis to be resident in Germany, said person is here illegally whether or not Lord MonksTown deems said person to be enough in the shadows to be defined as being here illegally.


Was he a dual citizen, because in that case he was a UK citizen. What was his name?

If illegal immigrants are regularised by an amnesty and (possibly) citizenship they will no longer be residing illegally.

Course someone who is illegal is illegal. But they are defined so by the law, they are not "illegal" in their existence as a human being.

People move in and out of illegality; it's not a static condition.
Laws are not static. They don't exist in a vacuum.

I'm not high lording it over anyone, not my style, or my politics.
I'm expressing an opinion about the society I live in and contribute to.
Or shouldn't we be allowed an opinion in case it threatens "Germany's" soverignty?

Amnesty isn't going to happen in Germany, so those of you who support it will have to find a better argument than simply saying the violation of law that illegal residence in Germany is, as well as its attendant side effects, can be magically wiped away with one vote in the Bundestag.

MT, no one is preventing you from expressing your opinion. Others also have the right to criticize what you post/say.

Neither does the US Republican party, because cabbage-picking mexicans are much more likely to vote democratic. That's why Buchanan and other border fence types don't want amnesty etc. The whole idea behind the guest worker program is a direct rip-off of West German Gastarbeiter policy right down to the name! Like, duh!

My wife discovered what it meant to be a non-citizen in the US ... begging for a work permit, travel hassels etc. Schwarzenagger himself can't be president because he isn't a member of the special lucky sperm club that makes many of my formerly-US-posted German colleagues' kids US citizens by accident of birth. Well, that's just the way it is.

Conquistidor is completely in the right in all of the foregoing posts. Ibid.

Of course the corollary to this thinking would be that the SPD wants people it thinks are inclined to vote for it to get naturalized only because they will vote for the SPD.

Of course political parties have ther own perspectives.
Coming up next on breaking news, the British like mint sauce on lamb!

Politicians are in a bind. Alienate illegals but no but.
Give the chance for everyone in the community to make their contribution to the community?

You're not a member of a community if you reside illegally in that community, i.e., the country in which that community is a part. Part of being a member of a community is respecting the laws of that community and the country in which it is located. You have already admitted to the low rate of tax compliance by those here illegally.

Why are you so eager to reward those who violate immigration law? The people who are disproportionately hurt by the presence of those here illegally are the same ones you claim need ongoing government assistance because of their economic situations. Generally speaking, these people will benefit disproportionately from not having to compete with those here illegally who, by your own admission, usually do Schwarzarbeit. Many of those who would benefit (in some places most of them) from a reduction of people here illegally are themselves legal immigrants.

For the sake of clarity, the above statement is confusing with regard to at least the city of Berlin.

You are only eliglible to vote for the Abgeordnetenhaus von Berlin - State Government, if you are considered German in the sense of Article 116 of Basic Law
(Landeswahlgesetz) § 1 (Wahlrecht): „(1) Wahlberechtigt sind alle Deutschen im Sinne des Artikels 116 Abs. 1 des Grundgesetzes“

EU citizens are able to vote in the Bezirksverordnetenversammlung - Local Elections, as here they are afforded the same voting rights as those considered to be Germans.
(Landeswahlgesetz) § 22 a: „Wahlberechtigt und wählbar zu den Bezirksverordnetenversammlungen sind unter den gleichen Voraussetzungen wie Deutsche auch Personen, die die Staatsangehörigkeit eines Mitgliedstaates der Europäischen Union besitzen (Unionsbürger)“

Therefore, EU citizens in Berlin are currently not able to vote in the Upcoming referendum for Tempelhof Airport (in German)

If I have misunderstood the situation, I am delighted to be corrected