Leaving Berlin due to problems with racism

Dear all,
I am doing some research (for a newspaper article) on to what extent - if any - native English speakers who have moved to Berlin are considering leaving becuase of problems with neo-Nazi types or skinheads. The reason I ask is that a cafe in my neighbourhood has been adopted (so to speak) by a number of skinheads who are carefully avoided by the other customers, to such an extent that the last time I visited a couple of skinhead types had half of the cafe to themselves; all the other customers were crowded at the other end. I have also been "congratulated" on more than one occasion by middle-aged Germans for being the "right sort of foreigner" (I am white and speak OK German) - an annoying experience in any case.
Not in itself enough to make me pack my bags, but I'd be interested to see what the rest of you feel, particularly those for whom latent or explicit racism could be a reason for leaving Berlin.
Thanks!

Yes, I suppose you could find people who reply that that's why they left Berlin, just as you can find evidence in the U.S. of why people left there for here.

When you find a place in the world where latent or explicit racism doesn't make people want to flee or doesn't exist, please be sure to let us all know.

39, female, black, American

Yeah i agree you get racist everywhere in the world. If you flee, they win, its better to fight against racsim rather than to run from it

well Im white, fluent german etc and lived for several years in Berlin. Although I personally never had any direct problems with skinheads, neonazis & co, I found their continued presence in the city unpleasant and to my mind they give the place a very nasty taste. And I know of several people - all western Europeans/english speaking world expats, who have had nasty encounters with them there. It was worst of all in the eastern part of the city and the surrounding area of Brandenburg. I no longer live there, having moved to western Germany, it being job related reasons which caused me to leave, but I wasnt sorry to leave all that behind. I think its a major problem in (eastern) Berlin and Brandenburg still.

I think the part about this that I find most frustrating is the suggestion that racism belongs to the skinheads alone. I heard this in the U.S. too: as if the Ku Klux Klan minority (an absolutely tiny fraction of the U.S. population) were to blame for the segregated neighborhoods, the continued income disparities, the differences in medical & educational system opportunities, application of criminal justice and policing policies, etc.

We give these extremists much more credit for being effective than they actually are.

While I applaud efforts to root out extremism, it is along a much broader and disturbing continuum. Many whites would rather pat themselves on the back for not being those (kinds of) racists, rather than examine the way that their everyday choices maintain the systemic racism I describe above.

There is a favorite joke that I have held dear, given to me by an anti-racist white ally: "In a survey of racism in a white suburban neighborhood, each resident stated '*I'm* not a racist...but my neighbor *is*.'"

Its difficult to differentiate between racist skinheads and anti-racist ones. Im not overly familiar with Prenzlauer Berg but it sounds rather Yuppie (for want of a better word) and im wondering if the skinheads in the cafe were just skinheads in a cafe, and the problem might be paranoia?

There is a problem with racists in northern and especially northeastern Prenzlauer Berg, where it borders Weißensee.

Im sure there are racism problems in the areas surrounding P'Berg, the point TColes made (if ive understood correctly) is that its everywhere. Its not to be found solely in undereducated young white males who lack opportunities and are resentful.
But what i was saying about the cafe is this- as with the thing someone said, "I tolerate everything except intolerance", how did the people in the cafe KNOW that the skinheads were racist? It appears that they didnt. It also appears that the skinheads were not what they were used to seeing, and therefore they were intolerant of them, and assumed lots of things about them that may not be true.

i see neo-nazis all the time in berlin, especially around alexanderplatz. there are at least 2 people in my building who are xenophobic and i live in mitte. i encountered a couple standing in the courtyard of my apartment building. the man asked me 'do you live here or are you a visitor?' i just looked at them shocked. and the man continued 'you don't understand german? it's better that way.' a few days ago, i saw a guy walking down the street near where i live wearing a jacket with '88' on it.

i travel to the eastern states on a regular basis. i've seen more neo-nazis in berlin than i've seen in places like brandenburg, saxony, and saxon-anhalt. but perhaps they blend in better in the other areas because (statistically speaking) there might be more of them. --but i don't want to label everyone from the east a neo-nazi right-wing skinhead, because that's not true. some of the most lovely people i know are from the east.

It's true. I live off of Ostseestr. and have had minor problems, but I think this is because I have a bit of a Yiddish tinge to my German.

Doubt it ... linguists able to detect a Yiddish tinge in your German are extremely rare birds among neo-Nazi types or skinheads

what sort of minor problems?

The majority of the skinheads I have seen in Prenzlauerberg have been gay. Certainly far from the neo-nazi types, just they look that way. And they would harm anyone.

of course: skinheads are NOT neonazis and vice versa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead

those are just gay bald dudes.

I have a shaved head.. hopefully people don't think I'm a skinhead..

I wear converse tho, not big metal-covered boots.

I trust you corrected them: you are, in fact, British and it is evryone else that is foreign

I am caucasian so I am not in a position to experience racism here first hand, but it would have suprised me if germans were not a bit xenophobic which they are - for example, I limit to 10 times a week answering the question 'where are you from?' and then being categorised like a voelkisch tourist brochure (australians have these national characteristics..amercans are like this.. etc). As a result some people here find australians 'bad' - usually hobby communists from prenzlberg. Also, because of the moral colony atmosphere created here because of the war and the general failure of german culture (kultur and pop culture) to make much of a positive impression on the world compared with the english-speaking variation, I think a lot of germans are resentful of the resultant fashionable general dominance and cow-towing to "english", so I get a bit of that. I have not yet had any major problems with skinheads because I perhaps look 'left'. In general, I find german men very loathe to start any sort of problems, especially those connected with me being a foreigner. All this is more likely to be an encouragement to stay rather than to leave..

Isn't this a bit "germanophobic"?

Why?

There's loads of Neo Nazis in Saxony, much more than Berlin which seems more tolerant from the visits I've done. The crappy parts of Leipzig are red neck as hell and working class people in Leipzig are generally extremely xenophobic, I've seen people actually pointing at and abusing black people in the street. There's lots of young people in screwdriver T shirts, disguised SS symbols on T shirts, skin heads in DMs and in the summer there was a concert by a Nazi band in Leipzig, the whole of the city centre seemed full of neo nazis and police which was pretty scary.

@chipbag: Why? maybe (just maybe and a little bit) because of:

Funny, in Leipzig they dont seem to mind thousands of goths turning up for Wave Gotik Treffen...

I enjoyed a pleasant multi-day visit to Leipzig last year, but that neither disproves nor substantiates anyone else's experience. In any case, I suppose I prefer my racists wrapped up in the American flag and driving the nation into Hell via foreign policy "leadership."

To each their own.

you'll have to do better than that, tobyg, you'll have to say why it's an unconvincing argument. are you german? you haven't put your nationality in.

One way to tell about skinheads in Germany is the colour of their clothes. There are red skins, who are anti fascist, gay skins etc. Skins who wear a lot of white are the ones to avoid. I live near Prenzlauer Berg and often speak a lot of English loudly because I am talking to my small child; I never get any trouble and would not expect it in that area. Incidentally I saw a neo nazi march in the area recently and hardly any of them had skin haircuts - they looked like sleazy little guys with longish hair.

Are you serious? I didn't know such marches still exist in modern Germany.

you are kidding, aren't you? the NPD and the other splinter groups DVU or is it DUV (i forget), march from time-to-time. but maybe not in mainz. but in places like bremen, saxony, berlin, meck-pomm, etc.

That sounds pretty grim. A city with Hitler's children running around all over the place...

Is berlin really that bad?
I thought most German big cities were quite safe while on this website most people sound like its a mugging everyday.

just wondering?

I havent seen anything

I have never had any encounters with neo nazis and I rarely see them, but I am white and female and German speaking so maybe their presense isn't so obvious to me...

Something that annoys me though is the attitude toward foreigners. I just hate the assumptions that I'm a tourist just because I am not a native German speaker and have a small accent. I'm a German citizen for christ's sake.

Millions of native German speakers/German citizens come to see Berlin as tourists ... being foreigners (Fremde, Auswärtige) altogether

I know that silly, but the assumption is that I'm a tourist because of my native language not because of my knowledge of the city.

perhaps in your opinion you speak german with a small accent, but in the opinion of a native, you're accent is very heavy. i think most germans could not fathom why anyone would voluntarily move to germany.

are you a german citizen or are you a perm. resident? how is it that you are able to have duo-citizenship? or did you abandon your candian one.

I'm a citizen, and I have dual. Normally you are not able to have dual but you can have it if you got your citizenship because one of you parents is German and my mom was born here.
And really, I mean it...I know my accent isn't that heavy. I grew up hearing German.

I've had my pocket picked once in about 18 months, but that's more annoying than frightening. I don't know the rates of violent crime, but there were fliers up in the Hackescher Markt S-Bahn station this fall about an Australian tourist stabbed late at night in a Döner shop over the summer. That sounds pretty horrible, but I figure if one violent crime is still the biggest news after several months in the middle of a big city, things are pretty safe. Especially compared to the several armed robberies a week that seem to take place in Uptown New Orleans and Hyde Park in Chicago, both University areas.

I do occasionally see young punks of various sorts making provocative nuisances of themselves by smoking on the U-bahn, playing music out loud on the bus, etc, but the only time it was a little scary was when there was a local football derby and one end of the train car was dominated by loud youths, one of whom had a "White Pride" patch on his jacket. But I didn't see them harrass anyone.

For reference, I'm white, male, and speak German with a moderate accent (American with slices of Swiss).

i work with an american whose mother is german. he grew up in the u.s. but grew up speaking both languages. he speaks germany fluently by american standards. but germans crack up whenever he opens his mouth and think his accent is soooo cute.

I'm not saying I don't have an accent, I'm just saying it's not super 'stark'. Like there is a TOTAL difference between someone who grew up hearing the language and learning to form the words in childhood and a tourist...that's all I'm saying...

I lived in prenzlaure berg for nealry 4 years (just moved to Dresden in august) and I have never seen any trouble.

I have over my time there heard of a few incidents etc but nothing to suggest the place is unsafe.

Which part of the area is the post starter talking about? There is a big difference in people from Prenzlaure allee to Schönhauser allee and greiswalderstr.

There is even a difference from below prenzlaure/danziger to up past the s-bahn station.

The problem is there will always be people who for one reason of another have to band into groups and villanize other people. Be it for the other people taking jobs away from the locals (that these people would not even consider doing) or just trying to blame the other group for whats wrong with the country.

These people will always exist and as long as the major political parties keep thing happy and going forward they are always pushed to the fringes of (political) society.

I am a Malaysian Chinese living in Berlin for almost 18 months now.
From stories I hear from other guys (local or foreign), it's not really the skinheads that you have to worry about.
No offence to Turkish people, but I HAVE heard from more than 5 foreign friends that they got beaten up by these Turkish. Some of them are even not "white", 2 person that I know are actually Latin.
I have not really seen much people complaining about these skinheads, except that sometimes they are a little noisy.
Noisy is not a problem for me as long as they don't start laying their hands on me.

I had troubles with the Turkish a LOT, esepcially when I lived in Kreuzberg. I even got surrounded once by a group of Turkish-German (they were speaking German to each other, and young so I think they were 2nd gen) guys and they spat on me and threw a bottle at me. NOT fun times. Also was stalked a lot. What? I can't wear a skirt and heels in GERMANY? Some people need to realize that if they don't like how thing are here they need to get out. They give the others a bad name (I've also known lots of well educated, liberal Turkish people that hate how people see them because of these morons.)

wow I'm quiet shocked reading this thread. I am german but have lived the last 7 years in Los Angeles and I honestly have never experienced racism as I have in The US. Actually my first encounter with racism was in LA and and all others that followed were also in the states. maybe because I'm a german white chick I don't get any trouble here in Berlin or anywhere else in Germany..but it has always been my impression that racism in the Us is far worse and much further spread than it is in Germany. I live in reinickenforf in a mostly turkish neighbourhood and everyone seems to be getting along just fine here.

I lived in the undesirable part of Prenzlauer Berg that borders on Weissensee, and it was sometimes pretty scary to take the Ringbahn at night... there were often LOADS of disenfranchised neonazi youth with killer dogs hanging out at the Prenzlauer Allee S-Bahn station... I never personally experienced any problems with them, but was certainly uncomfortable whenever I saw them. They were usually drunk and yelling racist slurs to passers by, so they definitely weren't just groups of harmless gay bald men.

I've also heard of people moving to Prenzlauer Berg from other parts of Germany (like a German-Brazilian family I know) and they're considering leaving because they felt a million times safer in Cologne.

I actually know people that have moved to Berlin from Sweden, because Berlin has a strong anti-fascist scene. Sweden has a very active and violent nazi movement, so they probably had problems with nazis back home. (There is a small, but very efficient antifa organisation in Sweden. But naturally they have a problem with coverage.)

For your amusement I took some pictures this morning of two very typical nazis that I spotted on the S-bahn.
[img]http://www.bild24.se/thumbs/6191nazi1.jpg[/img]

As you can see they have pretty normal clothes and do not stand out too much. The guy to the left even had a hoodie from a hiphop brand.

How did I know that they where nazis?
The scumbag to the right was sporting a "Thor Steinar"-jacket.
[img]http://www.bild24.se/thumbs/351naz2.jpg[/img]

Even thou the "Thor Steinar" clothing are carrying a Norwegian flag, this company has nothing to do with Norway. The clothing brand is pure a pure nazi-company, which fund a lot of nazi activity. The name is taken from a Waffen-SS general named Felix Steiner.

The TS clothes are extremely popular among nazi activists and their supporters! Oddly enough, the design is not very far from the clothes that young immigrants around Kreuzberg wear, making the nazis look almost as hiphopers. Hence, very distant from the '80-'90s skinhead culture. So keep your eyes open!

Be aware of Thor Steinar ! This is NOT a regular clothing brand! Head over to www . tho r s te inar . de (remove the spaces) and take a look at their clothes look like and can spot them, for your own safety. These people are a security hazard to all non-german speaking, non-german looking people or people that in another way won't fit their twisted idea of society (ie. most people).

be careful with pics - did you ask them? obviously not... keep in mind the "recht am eigenen bild"...
and then again, it's a clue - no evidence. remember punks wearing swastikas (yea, it's not the same, but i'd be careful with such definitive statements)

Picture quality is way to low to identify somebody on that picture.

If you look at a comparison of international crime statistics (as difficult as they sometime are to compare) it confirms what most people experience in Berlin ie that the level of what you might call 'street contact crime' is significantly lower than in english-speaking countries. There are probabaly some unflattering explanations for this in the german case, but there seems to be a sort of pattern for racist/fremdenfeindlich attacks that they occur fairly infrequently in the dark, with fairly harmless victims (like the portuguese building worker who was murdered in potsdam a few years back), despite big dogs and thor steiner gear etc. and german guys also don't seem that verbal. I think it's more the everyday 'oh when are you going back to your country/tourist' stuff that wears on the nerves. there are more than 100,000 german-born residents in australia and i'm sure they don't get asked about their accents very often, and on a population basis that would mean about half a million australians in germany, which would probably get mr koch re-elected 'what are they doing here!??'