I received a scary "Nazi" newspaper in the post

Some of them are as thick as shit Gene you are right.

But some of them are very clever in how they operate.
Particuarly where younger people feel alienated from society, the fascists try and fill a gap on cultural and social issues eg: youth clubs, training, job market, bands etc
as the established parties financially force and/or tolerate cutbacks.

Of the two Munich lists, the Pro München one was started around the issue of the new Sendling mosque.
Some genuie concerns that people might have are played on by such groups as as detailed above by the poster who challenged an older woman on the the issue, people get sucked into it.

In some cases, the anti-Semitism of fascists can led them into obscure alliances with those Islamist groups that have a lot of anti-Semitism in them, but that isn't the case on the ground in Germany, as far as I can see.

Go back and read what I posted. You weren't educated in Dickensian England were you? If you or another non-German is the victim of a violent crime, the perpetrator(s) would be deported after serving their sentence if not a German citizen. Or do you wish to be beaten to a pulp by a bunch of violent, racist thugs who have beaten other victims? German neonazis who commit violent crimes would be dealt with by hate crimes laws, preferably locked up for life so they cannot repeat their offenses.

But if someone was BORN here or spent a LONG time here, to the extent that they were socialised here, then I don't think Germany has the right to "dispose of their " rubbish by deporting people to a country many of these people don't or hardly know. The issue at hand isn't really about what should be the correct punishment if these two indivduals are convicted. it's about creating an atmsphere that says, you, I, or just about anyone on Toytown don't "really" belong here.

If the violent non-German criminals don't want to be deported, they should refrain from committing violent crimes they obviously should not be committing in the first place. Stop coddling and pampering violent criminals!

A number of ndividuals in Germany (and probably not even a majority) are racist, not the state. It is at any rate non-sequitir to the discussion about deporting violent non-German criminals. At any rate, it is the attitudes of racists towards law-abiding non-Germans you need to work on, not trying to run interference for racist thugs, a stance which will discredit you when you wake up and do decide to advocate for those who are law-abiding.

You know, I've never seemed to have any problems with people trying to beat me up, but then life can be quite quiet when your 6 ft 3 and not built like a beanpole. Besides which, I'm sure that the police have quite enough powers to deal with the perps already, without giving them any more. It's like in the UK, where the reason given by the govt for increasing police powers was 'because the police have asked for it'. Seems like the definition of a police state to me.

That's no deterrent to hardened criminals. There are plenty of thugs who would enthusiastically attack even a tough target- where I come from people did that all the time, in part to make sure such a person "knew their place". I suspect that happens in the UK as well.

Most prison sentences for violent crimes in Germany are rather light. What I propose would help prosecutors to do their jobs in prosecuting violent offenders.

Aside from the popularist elements who are seeing to get elected, there isn't that much desire within the CDU/CSU to toughen up the sentencing.
For the last few weeks I have been watching the issue in the SZ and I have yet to see a criminologist in favour of it either.

There are crimes when a custodia sentence is appropriate and I think this is one of them.

Custodial sentences cost money.
If you want to see more people in prison for longer, the money has to come from the taxpayer.
Avoidiing cutodial sentencing has been, I think, partly an attempt to cut costs.
"Soft sentencing" eg community service / probation etc still costs money too and i SUSPECT there has been the tendency not to "invest" in that kind of area that might have paid off dividends.

Ideally of course, you don't want people to go down the path of anti social behaviour leading into pety and then more serious crime.
That means good social work, youth clubs, good education, training, job oppurtunities.
And they are all increasingly hard to get for the pooer sections of society that by sheer co-incidence also happen to overlap heavily with non-German citizens.
Funny that.

Well, MT, noncustodial sentences are appropriate for some crimes, but not all. My concern, in case you missed it, was about violent criminals such as the Arabella Park U-Bahn duo.

The best way to provide more job opportunities for non-Germans resident in Germany (obviously the end goal since it has so many positive side effects) is more of a free market economy. More training is also very desirable, but of little import without more vacancies to fill.

Is this the third or fourth time I've said this today already:
If they are convicted I don't see any alternative to the two Arabella Park perpetrators other than a custodial sentence.

The UK's economy, like that of Germany is even more market orientated ie "hire and fire".
But doesn't seem to have a lesser problem with young violent criminals.

MT, economic issues are non-sequitir to the issue of violent crime. The free market creates more jobs than Socialism or your beloved Marxism and allows for more upward social mobility for those who do the right things in life despite starting out disadvantaged. You can train people for decades, if the jobs aren't there, they will not get hired.

As for the Arabella Park duo, of course they will do (soft) time. Why shouldn't they do time in prison? Why should they get pampered, MT, or get let go completely from paying their debt to society? The Turkish fellow will probably get deported after their sentences are complete, although both should be deported since neither man deserves to walk the streets of Germany again menacing law-abiding people.

Social mobility?

Surely it couldn't be the case as both the UK and Germany have moved their market economies even more in a market direction, social mobility has decreased.


But it's OK for them to walk the streets of Athens or Ankara if they continue to be a threat to society as a whole?
Or do you mean they should face life imprisonment?

Care to show something that backs you up while removing any other potential cause of a reduction in social mobility (e.g., increased immigration) from the analysis?

Social mobility isn't Robin Hood-style income redistribution, MT, except maybe in your Marxist Schlaraffenland.


If the reporting was accurate and the Greek man wanted to attack Germans (hate crime) yes, I think they should get life imprisonment.

The two are citizens of Greece and Turkey, therefore under international law, those countries cannot keep their citizens from entering their countries. How they deal with them once they enter is their problem. Why should people living in Germany have to fear racist attacks/hate crimes from this duo?

Becasue whilst they are on paper foreign citizens, they were born here / spent a long time here.
You have to take the rough with the smooth. Germany wanted / wants the labour and skills and tax contributions of us supposed foreigners.
So they have to accept that some so called foreigners will commit crimes.

They fact they shouted "Scheiß Deutsche" is indicative of the cleft between Germany and many people with migrant backgrounds that live here.
A Harlem born African American duo wouldn't shout "American motherfucker" if they attacked a white pensioner on the New York Subway would they?

They are foreign citizens, period, MT. Regardless of the amount of time they spent here, they are not German citizens and for that matter didn't see themselves as a part of this society, so why should they be treated as if they are German citizens? Even for those exercising EU Freedom of Movement there are some limits- residing in another country is a privilege.
Would you apply the same logic to neonazi attacks on foreigners? Of course not- they are completely unacceptable.


You continue to make excuses for violent, racist thugs and imply that it is OK for non-Germans to attack Germans. That's really pathetic. There is no excuse for the duo's crime. At any rate, if life in Germany is so bad that Greek and Turkish citizens living in Germany have no chance here, they can always go to the country in which they are citizens, where presumably they won't face racism, right? No one makes them stay in Germany.


Such a crime would be equally reprehensible. They wouldn't shout that he is American, but if they referenced his race during the attack, it would probably be prosecuted as a hate crime.

You like to twist things Conq. but that is downright untrue.
What they did is NOT "OK" and if convicted I think they should face a custodial sentence.

I don't think this duo's sickening attack on the pensioner was a hate crime.
They didn't attack him for his ethnicity, they attacked him becasue of his justified (but perhaps unwise) demand that they stop smoking in a non-smoking area.

It's quite interesting Conq. how you seem to think that supposed "foreigners" don't really belong here, however long we have lived here or even if we were born here. I've spoken to a fair number of other "foreigners" on this issue. Even ones that I would NOT qualify as of the left wouldn't vote for CDU/CSU candidates becasue of the implications made by their campaigns.

And the strength of these two far right lists standing for Munich City Council is a result of those CDU/CSU campaigns.
When Koch and Schmid and Co ran these campaigns, surely they must have known that they would be benefiting the fascists?
They knew it. They were quite happy to give the fascists a push up for their own advantage.

Shame on them!

Talk about twisting things, MT. In spite of my changed circumstances, you should realize that I immigrated here with a US passport. The right to be in Germany depends on each person's circumstances, and is absolute only for German citizens. If you do not like that, you have some EU and German legal statutes to revise.

Feel free to post some evidence about what you have alleged. Unlike you, I am not a political activist, so I don't follow the Hessen state elections in minute detail.


Once again, do you have any evidence to back up this very serious allegation?

"We hold these truths as self evident".

Peter Struck, the Chairman of the SPD Bundestag Group, already accused Koch of being glad that the pensioner got attacked at Arabellapark U-Bahn as it enabled him to rund a racist / xenophobic election campaign. As far as I know, Struck refused to back down. Fair play to him.


No.
Schmid & Co would have to convince their own parties, the other parties and the rest of the EU and other signatory states to revise various treaties.
Is that really going to happen to do a favour for the short term electoral advantage of the CSU in Munich?

Shall I write just for a laugh to my MEPs from the UK's South West to lobby them, if this is the burning issue facing Europe right now?

One partisan politician says something over-the-top about a politican you dislike because (shocker) he is a center-right politician, and that makes the opinion Struck expressed within the context of a campaign a fact? Would you, MT, want to be accused of being happy a German man who wanted the AP duo to respect the smoking ban was attacked by non-Germans? Would the SPD want to be accused of being happy that the pensioner was attacked so that it could falsely accuse CDU/CSU politicians of racism for wanting to prevent the duo from attacking another pensioner? Would the SPD want to be accused of cheering violent criminals' attacks? What you do, MT, is that you assume racism towards every person who is perceived as non-German without offering any proof of this- it is a leap of logic that makes you unable to see that the concern is about people who commit violent crimes!


This isn't a blip on the radar screen- remember the UK wanted to expel a citizen of Italy last year who committed a violent crime. You want to give noncitizens the vote, but you don't want them to have the same responsibilities that German citizens do, including following the laws of this country. Lawmakers and other employees at the EU level are always working on new laws, so they can certainly address this issue as well.

Look guys i have lived here for 25 years and my general opinion of the Germans is that the majority still worship Hitler.Its there in all walks of life over here.Even the East Germs talk about Hitler with awe.When all said and done its still going to be there when we have all died.Then again the little Auslanders are at fault for all the problems in Germany.I like Germany and the majority of Germans otherwise i would not have stayed here so long, but when you look at it Hitler was an Auslander too.

Sure, it works both ways. I don't think that Italian citizen should have been considered for deportation.
He's lived in the Uk for so long he was Britain's problem.

The treaties stand as they are.
If Schmid wants to try and water down the rights of EU citizens he hs to convince his own party, the rest of the parties, get the federal Government to get on the EU agenda
and then try and win the argument in the EU. I don't think that is likely as it would be a reversal of the process towards a common but diverse European identity.

There is already a lot of arm-twisting done within the EU on thornier issues, so convincing other EU states of the need for a change is eminently possible. I think that those who aren't on the far left of the political spectrum (i.e., the majority of those citizens of EU member states) don't support the notion of a single European identity, which would be Schlaraffenland naivete at its finest. Rest assured that the nation state is not about to die and those of you on the far left trying to slay it will provoke a political backlash if you haven't already.

I really don’t want the west to be taken over by the Muslim faith. I detest the way Muslim societies treat their women. I would hate to live in a country where there are lots of mosques with loud speakers blaring out the message calling people to prayer. In Nice, France, the local Muslims are continually trying to get planning permission to build a large mosque but fortunately it is continually blocked by the local population. Should I hide my feelings? Am I a fascist for feeling this way?

Errrrm Conq. the left has issues with the EU.
It's the political centrists like the SPD and C parties who have pushed the EU.
Schmid's party is jointly responsible for the structure of laws and treaties as they now stand.

I don't remember them ever bitching about it before.
It's cheap poliical oppurtunism on OUR backs.
I knew of course that Schmid would drop his "kuschelimage" if he thought he could gain votes from doing so, but I felt personally gutted when he scraped this idea out of the bottom of the barrell.

As far as the results of the council go, all bets are off now...

MT, when Freedom of Movement was enacted, no one wanted to think negatively about the European Project, so issues like the brutal racist attack perpetrated by the Arabella Park duo weren't really considered. Recent experience here and in other EU countries has suggested a review of the policy and some minor changes may be warranted, so let's use the democratic process to do this. That is what I am suggesting.

Your comments suggest that there is support among local voters for doing something about racist attacks by non-Germans (of which non-Germans can also certainly be victims) besides coddling them. If there is a desire by voters for changes using the democratic and constitutional processes, then you need to participate in that process by debating the facts instead of simply calling those who want to deal with the problems identified by the attacks "racist". That makes you an apologist for criminals and will further harden hearts against the brutal thugs you champion simply because they are not German.

I think you are a prisoner of your ideology.

When the freedom of movement issue came up, the issues were considered.
And on balance it was decided to generally NOT allow the deportation of EU criminals.

It wouldn't be a minor revision, it would be a major change of direction.
However appalling this attack on the Munich U-bahn was, should a whole rake of law and treaties be ammended becasue of that?

If Schmid doesn't want the EU and other so called foreigners who make Munich what it is, we could go.
And Munich could go back to being the very provincial nest it was before the Zugeroaste came.


Will you kindly desist with this.
Not only are you blatantly lying, you are actually undermining your own credibility by doing so.

MT, you are wrong on the deportation issue and the EU treaties. Citizens of an EU member state can be deported from another member state if they "threaten public safety". At any rate, the constitutional and democratic processes allow for change, so let's debate the facts.

Somehow I think Munich will be just fine if you leave. I also think that many other foreigners would be happy to take your place.

As for your false accusations of lying, MT, I suggest you look in the mirror to see a person who is truth-challenged. A matter of violent criminals who aren't German citizens you falsely conflate to German "racism" and tell us we have to tolerate violent crimes. No we don't and it's certainly not racist to say so. It is racist of you, MT, to accuse Germans of racism for wanting to deport citizens of other countries who commit violent crimes in Germany. Why should anyone want to keep guests who become violent criminals? To go even further, you claimed the crimes occurred because of economic privations among non-Germans! This was a gratuitous racist attack, there was no excuse for it whatsoever.

That's the "Monkstown is Anti German" line again is it Conq?
Change the bloody record will you.

Anyway, back to the matter at hand.
What is going to happen if these two far right lists get councillors in the Stadtrat?

What will Rot-Grün-Rosa do if they lose their majority?
Would they let themselves be tolerated by the Linke or go into a 4 way coallition with them?

Would the CSU try and govern reliant on votes from these far right councillors?

Interesting times and it's all to play for.

Maybe Schmid might realise that a few thousand EU citizens who are entitles to vote are the Zünglein in the Waage?

Well, MT, no one wants to go into coalition with far left or far right parties. I suspect that the far right won't make it into the Stadtrat.

As to whether you are anti-German MT, I will refrain from commenting because I don't know you- perhaps you only like far left Germans. Your comments, however, do suggest anti-German feelings.

One more thing, MT- if the Arabella Park duo had attacked you for being a gay Englishman, would you want them deported after they served their sentences? Or do you want them to get one of those all-too-scarce apprenticeships instead of law-abiding folks?

Heh? I draw the line at friendships with fascists but I've friends with a variety of political views, Germans and non-Germans.

You can get a council seat in munich on the basis of 1.2% of the vote:

http://www.muenchen.info/wahlen/wahl2002/i_srwahl.htm

Now they are standing, these 2 far right lists might well get seats.
One might hope as there are two of them, they might split the vote.

But they are feeling pretty confident in Munich right now and if Koch wins in Hessen, they might well feel more confident.

Absoloute majorities aren't as common in Germany as elsewhee so the parties have to look for coalitions.
There still 5 weeks till polling day in Munich and a lot of water will have flown down the Isar by then.


No. There is some indication that some of the victims of subsequent copy cat attacks on the U-Bahn may have been homophobic.
The answer remains the same. If the centre of your lifei s here and you were socialised here, Germany shouldn't simply be allowed to "dispose" of you if you committ a crime.


If they are convicted and serve their sentence, they are going to have to get back into society somehow.
Decent education, training, the prospect of a decent job and social facilities are things that keep young people from becoming anti social , then petty, then serious criminals.

When it come to cutting back on spending on youth clubs say, the state is often penny wise and pound foolish.

The Turkish man who was part of the Arabella Park duo will be deported, as I understand it, so you will have to change EU lor German law if you want to prevent that. Germany should not have to pamper violent criminals, as you want the country to do.

It's weeks back now but there was a story in the Sz that suggested that even with Turkish Citizens it is not cut and dried as there are certain treaties limiting deportation.
I don't think these violent criminals should be pandered to. For the what is it now, SIXTH or SEVENTH time in a few days:
If convicted I think a custodial sentence is unavoidable.

If you want to waste limited training positions on the Arabella Park duo, you are pandering to violent criminals. I say law-abiding people should get the apprenticeships and training since places are limited. You act like the attack was no big deal. They could have killed an elderly man, MT.

Treaties can always be renegotiated. Sounds to me like this is an issue that should be addressed in the political process first, although it seems like you are desperate to keep that from happening, MT.

I would rather see youngsters having a decent educaton, training, job oppurtunities and social facilities if that can prevent this appalling but fortuneatley rare act of violent criminality.

Schmid isn't interested in serious debate on the issue.
He's just after votes from people on the right.
He might have hope to have gained votes from those otherwise inclined to vote for these far right parties but what he has done is bolstered their position.

We'll have to watch this space to see what happens over the next few weeks.

MT, of course young people deserve a good education (to include vocational training for those not bound for university or public-sector employment) but that in and of itself is not going to prevent them from committing crimes. I read recently that 72% of Turkish citizens living in Germany have no qualifications for any sort of skilled or professional work, i.e., no university degree or vocational training, which is disturbing and shocking. Yet by no stretch of the imagination are anywhere near 72% of Turkish citizens resident in Germany criminals. It is non-sequitir. Better opportunities are a matter of both social justice and the economic present and future of Germany, but they are not per se a crime-prevention measure. Nor will the best economic results, and the social justice you purport to crave, be achieved without greater doses of the free markets that you, MT, abhor.

am I getting this right - are you genuinely afraid of violent criminals in Munich?

hahahahahhahahhahahahahahha

BTC, to whom is your question addressed and what is your basis for asking it?

well kind of all of you. Crime is falling all over Europe - and guess what, of all urban areas, Munich has the lowest rates of crime and has held that position for a good long time. Considerably lower rates of crime than any city in the UK or USA.

Frightening isn't it!

When I cast my vote in a few weeks, I'll certainly be suporting candidates that recognise the importance of improving education opportunities
for people with migrant backgrounds. Germany scores really badly on that and Bavaria is the worst state as well.

I would like to publicly state that Conquistador did not write the following:

"Anyone who today wants to act in the name of German honor must first announce the most relentless fight against the intolerable defilers of German honor ... the representatives of the November crime. That collection [of] Marxist, democratic-pacifist, and Centrist traitors that pushed our people into its current state of powerlessness... I admit most frankly that I could reconcile myself with every one of those old enemies, but that my hate for the traitors in our own ranks is unforgiving and will remain."

He did, however, write the following:

The Turkish man who was part of the Arabella Park duo will be deported, as I understand it, so you will have to change EU lor German law if you want to prevent that. Germany should not have to pamper violent criminals, as you want the country to do.

Even by your low, anti-US standards, garibaldi, that is beyond vile. You fail to see that the above quote from Hitler was not within any sort of similar context to the issue of violent crime discussed on this thread, and is not in any way comparable.

I stand by my statements about violent criminals, which as previous posts made clear, include German citizens as well.

If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

No, MT, I don't have to take that sort of libel, particularly from someone who has made as much of an issue of my foreign origins as garibaldi has. Funny how you never denounce an ideological soulmate who wants to persecute a foreigner.

Heh?

I'm not sue what Garabaldi's views are.
We seem to agree on some stuff, have disagreed on other stuff.
99% of his posts are worth reading.

I've not seen Garabaldi having a go at you for your origins on here.
He could hardly castigate you as a "foreigner". This is TT, we are ALL "foreigners".

I wouldn't have posted what he did but I'm not going to get hugely worked up over it.
If your stock in trade in venomously going for people with personal attacks, then don't run crying to mummy when one day another boy in the playground slaps back.

Libel? There's no libel of ANY sort in that post. You did write the two sentences Garibaldi attributed to you, right?

Sure you have seen garibaldi's handiwork, MT. Allow me to refresh your memory:


Funny how the below statement by an ideological leftist didn't provoke Sturm und Drang from the leftist cognoscenti:

I doubt that you would want to be compared to Hitler, MT, and everyone knows that was inappropriate. Your disagreements with me on political issues seem to blind you to that.

Hitler has a kind of fetish to it.
You are more than willing to sling round accusations of racism and xenophobia yourself without any base to the allegations
but get all hot under the collar when the other boys in the sandpit slap you back.

I don't agree with those posts by Garabaldi as they stand.
But you are in some kind of crazed tin foil hat kind of situation if you think there is some kind of left-wing "brotherhood" on TT out to get you.

Garabaldi did put his finger on it though.
You do have issues with "free speech" if the opinions expressed are not your own.

The Islam issue from Timmeh I could come back to another time.

Funny, unlike garibaldi, I don't ask for anyone's posts to be moderated or any thread closed no matter how offensive. There is a wide difference between fair comment and false allegations, the latter a.k.a, what "the other boys in the sandpit" sometimes sling. There is a difference between free speech and libel, and it is obviously the latter with which I take exception. Feel free to try to prove otherwise, but you can't, hence you keep throwing out that tired old, and false, allegation.

MT, feel free to post any instance in which I posted "accusations of racism and xenophobia" to see if they were unjustified.

You've accused me of anti-Semitism, anti-Americanism, anti-Germanism.
I've asked you to provide evidence of your allegations which you have consistently failed to do.

Using the "report to mods" button is a matter of style, I tend to only use it when I see blatantly racist pots which are thankfully rare on here.
Some of the stuff you post is out of order but you can hoist yourself by your own petard.

I suggest that others review your posts, MT, and draw their own conclusion.

What makes you think that other people haven't been doing exactly that, not only in respect of MT's posts but yours as well?