I received a scary "Nazi" newspaper in the post

In the post I found a newsletter with the heading: 'Promünchen: voter newsletter for all true Münchner' with a picture of an Aryan child on the frontpage and 'Future instead of Islamization', followed by articles about murders committed by muslims, and how men should be in charge of the household again and mothers shouldn't work. 2 whole pages were devoted to anti-muslim propaganda, including a mosque in a red circle with a line through it. The gist of the whole thing is let's return to the good old days when there were only Germany here and women didn't work, etc.

It could be "Volksverhetzung" (sedition?) according to §130 StGB. You could probably make a report at the police station...

Apparently it was sent to everyone as it says' An alle Haushalte mit Tagespost'. It's a political group that is seeking 1,000 people to sign a petion so that they can get representation at the Rathaus.

Yeah, I would probably ask at a police station if such propaganda is legal. If not, just throw it in the trash. What a waste of paper...

Yes, let's ban free speech.

Yes, I got it too - had a glance at it (not sure I want to waste my time reading it all properly), and it looks like nasty extreme right-wing stuff, aimed at the not-so-bright masses - the kind who want and need someone to tell them what to think, and how to vote. I think whoever produced it are possibly not very bright themselves, judging from the quantity of spelling and/or typing errors I spotted just at a casual glance. Is this some new right-wing extremist political party or what?

Anyway, looks like it's had a wide distribution, so if there is some doubt about its legality, no doubt the police are already aware.

KingBilly, do you know anything about Germany? Free speech is one thing, Nazi/Neo-Nazi rhetoric* is another and in most circumstances is quite illegal in Germany. Like the Horst Wessel song, for example?

* I'm not saying that's what this flyer is, but I do know that German law does not protect certain kinds of expression. Article 51 of Germany's Basic Code states that a citizen's right to free speech cannot be used to conflict with another's right to "personal dignity." As a result, the German criminal code condemns the making of racial insults (Art. 130), the writing or disseminating of works that incite racial hatred (Art. 131), and the trivialising or denial of Nazi atrocities such as the Holocaust (Art. 194).

I actually know nothing about Germany. What is a Neo Nazi? Who was Horst Wessel, never heard of them.

Gopher, this is from the kind of / may be / we're not sure / we hate the other fascists / it was only 599 999 999 / etc bloc in Munich that are particuarly operating in the SE of Munich.

@ KingBilly


KingBilly or William of Orange was an early form of Neo Nazi. One who liked to decimate Irish towns by burning the inhabitants our of their homes and then ethnically cleansing the native Catholic population. Wiki

@Gopher:>> These types of newsletter are quite frequent occurrences being dropped in letter-boxes. They are distributed by Facist pro-Nazi groups. I'm sure it asked you for a contribution and to join the "Verein" If it was actually posted to you and delivered by "posty" himself I would lodge a complaint with Deutsche Post and the Police. This is incitement to racial hatred.

There is talk about banning the neo-nazi party NPD (sort of german BNP). That might puts an end to it.

There is some talk of trying (again) to find a constitutional ban on the NPD amongst some sections of some of the mainstream parties.
What the OP has experienced is some fascist group who are (common knowlege) leafletting the less posh areas of Munich trying to garner votes for the March 2nd elections.
The fascists have (fortunetely) had a row and don't have a unified slate. Pity huh.

ach Tallguy. Seafóid!

So boy, you look at my name and automatically assume I'm some kind of catholic hater/exterminator/bigot?
That conclusion would be as ridiculous as me taking some deeper meaning from your name. So you are tall eh? Male? Oppress the small guys??

The Bears tuppencehaypenny, KB, despite the imputations in the name, dude, when not winding up, is as balanced a purveyor of peace between the rapidly aging delineations on our wee island as you could hope for here. Time we moved into the 21st century and forgot all the shit that fosters hatred on our wee island. And start here. Ey boys?

yeah I know that nazi proaghanda is banned but why? before you all start insulting me for that I reckon we should let them have their say as they make themseleves sound silly without us having to condemn them. Like the holocaustt disbelievers- what do they think happened? a giant game of hide and seek. Another point is that it's better that these groups are public than underground so we can monitor their activities and have a good old laugh whenever they open their mouths. If groups are driven underground who knows what they'll get up to

They could start repairing shit willynillywilly. Not likely though.

@RustyMember - I see you're currently in Australia. Have you been to Europe/Germany or lived there? That's not meant in a bad way, I was just wondering how much you know about this?

All over Europe there are extreme right nationalist groups, variants of the Neo-nazi concept. In some countries its scary how much power they hold - in Flanders of Belgium for instance the nationalist group formerly known as Vlaams Blok had 1/3rd of the votes at one point. They have been banned but regrouped under a new name (can't remember at the moment). Some of the policies of these groups may be very good and positive, but the key purpose of the groups is much darker. They try to gain votes and a good reputation via the moderate policies. Then there are groups who don't even try to mask their more extreme objectives.

There is a very good reason why these groups are banned. In the extreme cases it goes far beyond free speech and is both intimidation to minority groups, and similar to the dangers of some cults. Free speech does not include the right to intimidate or indirectly threaten others.

The Sendling mosque issue has the potential to be the BIG issue in the Munich elections.
The CSU are just waiting for the right (sic) moment to take it out of the bag.

Are you sure? I read about the CSU's new stratergy of starting to drop the idea of just being Christian - read catholic - and approaching Muslims. Their reasoning, which does bear weight is that Muslims often reflect the conservative traditional moral attitude of the party. Found that interesting to be honest.

I used to (about 12 years ago) get all sorts of Neo-Nazi rightest crap sent to me just because of my Hebraic first name, and these guys would send it without postage so I would have to go down to the post office to pick the letters up. After the first time I would have the employee show me the envelope, then I refused to accept the delivery. They gave up after a while.

If the propaganda they are diffusing so generously is not against the German Constitution (Grundgesetz) you cannot forbid the leaflets. The NNs have learned in the last couple of decades, they are trying to look and act more bourgeois and win voters over by rhetoric - it worked in Saxony where they are represented in the State parliament with a scary 9.2%, only .6% less than the SPD.

Not that they have become a party like all others, their peccadillos are rather major than minor. Jürgen Menzel, member of the Saxon parliament, tried to smuggle a revolver into the Parliament and was declared persona non grata. He is, however, allowed to enter the premises again under certain precautions. Thorsten Heise, member of the national committee of the NPD, was sentenced to six months probation for producing CDs to be sold in Berlin, the songs discriminated against Turks, mostly those living in Berlin. A similar case against him went to the appeals court.

Oi! Who is you calling less posh? We 'as tree-lined havenues and proper manicured lawns round our side o' town, I'll 'ave you know.

Anyway, I had another look at this rag. If anyone wants to see what it's about, there's also a web site: www.promuenchen.de (I'm deliberately not including the link). They seem to be politically close to (or a reincarnation of?) the ultra right-wing Republikaner party (does it still exist?) which was led by the late, and rather charismatic, Franz Schoenhuber. The rag contains an endorsement from his widow Ingrid Schoenhuber.

Gids mate: Look at the pronouncement of Söder the last week.
Hey, let's meet for a drink in the new year innit.

Even IF the CSU as a party was cool with the concept of Muslims praying to the SAME GOD as Christians why on on earth would they let up at election time to have a go at the "kanacken". ? Surely not to gain votes from racists?

That's scary.

Yeah I agree, I had no idea people did that. Did they think you were Jewish and wanted to harass you? I mean I don't know if you are but the name Sara(h) is so common, I would never even think someone is Jewish just because of their first name... I would have never expected such things to happen either (but then I am a bit naive at times, I often underestimate how horrible people can be).

Not condascending in the least. Used to live in Germany in fact pretty much all over Europe but even in Australia we have that shit too. I actually know a lot more about this stuff than I'd care to.

Rimmed Pauline Hanson?

that's low

Did you know that the NPD gets financed with the taxes you pay? But only as long as that party remains legal.

Christmas Market revelers beware! These "pro-münchen" people are out in force today in front of the Rathaus. I actually saw them chasing down old Bavarian-looking couples (e.g. people wearing felt hats) to sign their petition.

pro-muc@web.de

Just sign 'em up for a gay Turk newsletter

There are regulations about the minimum distances to be maintained between anyone canvassing for signatures for candidate proposal and the distance from a council office where this can be performed.
I guess pretty much all of Mareinplatz is no go and the other parties will not be doing it.
If you can pinpoint exactly where it occurred it might be worth reporting to the council.

They were placed exactly between the tourist office (in the Rathaus, by the front door) and the first row of Xmas market stalls. I watched 3 different couples as they were approached and were given the newsletter and none of them reacted to it. Maybe they didn't get a good look at it...

I don't know why people assume that either, but it is not unique to that particular bunch of wackos- normal, decent people from the Arab countries and Iran often assume the same thing from someone's first name.

Who are these felt hat people, that you see wearing these sort of old fashioned grey or dark green trilby hats with feathers or whatever in them. Ive seen them in small towns in Bavaria and to a lesser extent in Hessen. Less so in the big cities, but maybe they are visible there. I suppose a few feathers are harmless, but it still looks kind of sinister to me. Are they the people who used to hold their hands up? you dont get old people walking around looking like that in Britain or US.

This fascist group seems to be getting desperate for signatures. They'e been out en force circling people in Marienplatz for about three weeks, now. You can't even go near the place without being accosted by them. There are a handful of police hanging around to prevent any fights. I asked if these groups have permission to be there, and they do. It's very frustrating as I have to walk by there at least twice a day and feel like an unwelcome Ausländer. I've never had such a bad feeling living in Munich before. It's really a shame.

Hold out your hand for one of the pamphlets (with gloves on, of course) and thank them for including Ausländer in their attempts to win votes. If your first or last name sound Middle Eastern/Hebrew/other lesser races mention it. Haggis Junior were keeping our fingers crossed that they would try to give me a flyer but we must have looked too eager.

Read more here.


They're mostly neo-nazis / NPD members trying to form a movement under a different name to attract support. One of the members has even been kicked out of the CSU where he was also a member.
Here's what the frontpage looks like. Straight to the rubbish with this filth...

Islamisierung on the title page too. My Unword of the year.

They really are wolves in sheep's clothing. I've seen several little old ladies and even nice, normal people that work in my office carrying these leaflets (after walking through Marienplatz). I asked one of them why she was carrying a fascist newspaper and she was shocked. They are apparently telling everyone that they only want to rid Munich ofausländer 'criminals' and support good Christian values like in the good ole days. Now, where have I heard that before...

In the USA ?

In the last 2 years we have had 4 NPD marches in Dorfen.Place swarming with police.To be honest i have felt more tghreatened when walking along to the Liverpool football stadium, Anfield.

Pro münchen and the other NPD offshoot group that was canvassing for signatures have now officially received enough signatures to participate in the next election. Well, let's hope people aren't dumb enough to vote for them as well...

Oh, they're ok, these lads. Some of their best friends are Muslim.

It has previously been touch and go whether these to far right parties would get enough signatures to stand.
The racism and xenophobia whipped up the the CDU and CSU after the U-Bahn assaults saw the a rapid rise in people signing.
Bouyed up by this success, I hear on the grapevine that fascists from all over Germany are going to be heading here on Ash Wednesday which is traditionally a day for large political meetings.
Not exactly the kind of "compliment" Munich really wants.

Given the fact that parties don't have to get a huge percentage of the vote to get a seat in the council once they stand, it is not unlikely that both lists will get councillor(s).

The one to watch is the result of the Hessen State Election on Sunday.
If the Koch's CDU wins on the back of a racist / xenophobic campaign, expect the atmosphere to worsen in Munich.

@ Genie, I seriously doubt that either of these groups are particuarly friendly towards people of the Muslim faith, given that most Muslims in Germany would be the "foreigners" they dislike.

MT, I guess what you are saying is that you want Germans to be beaten to a bloody pulp (without recourse to the rule of law) by any non-German criminal who feels like doing so, and if they don't like it and don't want to allow it, then they are "racist". It's time to amend EU law to allow the deportation of all violent criminals who are citizens of another EU member state after they serve their sentences, and it's time for hate crimes laws as well, something you should welcome.

You obviously attribute too much intelligence to these life forms. This brings to my memory a ridiculous story one of my co-workers from up north (NRW, up north of the Weisswurstäquator that is) told me once, who grew up in a small town which had its own Nazi band of bored stupid young Euro trash. But one of them, surprisingly enough, was a young German of... hold tight... African descent. In a Nazi troupe. Which gained him the appropriate title of the 'Neger-Nazi'.

Too bloody right, Conq. There are far too many of these slimy foreign types running around Germany. Time to throw all these filthy auslaender out. Oh, hang on a mo...

My understanding was that the two men were German citizens of Turkish and Greek heritage. Is that not the case?

Done to death in another thread

What a load of shit.
I said on another thread that upon conviction, I don't see any alternative for the two original perpetrators than a custodial sentence.


Apalling as the attack was, all the objective stats seem to be indicating a lower occurance of crime on the transport network.
Is it approriate to make a significant change of direction in the development of the EU becasue of that?
Some politicians may like it as a soundbite at election time. But they's have to convince the rest of their parties, other German political parties and then try and persuade the rest of the EU to accept it.
Unlikely - therefore it reamins a tub thumping soundbite designed to whip up xenophobia.


Not sure whether I'm in favour of particular hate crime legislation and I'm not convinced either this was a hate crime in itself.