Bavaria's non-smoker protection law now passed

The way I see it there's a loophole which allows places to become smoking clubs. Maybe it isn't even really a loophole, maybe it was always know that some places would take this option. If owners want to do it, that's fine, there's no reason to close that loophole. Other places are smoke free, which is great. Everyone has a choice. I don't see why people are still pissed off. I almost get the impression that some people want to see the law fail or be repealled/watered down at all costs just so they can say 'I told you so'.

Anyway, there's a s-bahn strike from Monday, shouldn't we all be putting our differences aside and heading over to that thread to complain about the common pain in the ass, the GDL?

There's no "choice" in the smoking clubs situation as you HAVE to be a member.
So drinking pubs can keep hold of their core regular trade but they lose passing trade.
As a customer I am forced to join a club even if I only want to go in that location ocassionally.

And I <heart> the GDL.

The reasons I heard on the radio this morning for allowing smoking at the Oktoberfest are ridiculous. They claim they don't have enough time to prepare for the change. What a load of shit.

All they need to do is make one door in the tents a smokers door. Then outside 10m x 10m area with a fence around it where people can smoke and get back in. You shouldn't be allowed to take drinks out here, so no one lingers. In any case, there are never any problems if you want to leave a tent. You might have trouble getting back in, but stiff shit.

This is pathetic, but interesting, from my home state: US drinkers upstage smoking ban anything like that in the bavarian law? lol

damn, you beat me to it.

they also say 'I'm playing me...before the smoking ban.'
i chatted with a few friends who have taken part in Dinky town.

Hazza and tfl in agreement shocker!!

Yes:

Did I hear that right today that smoking WILL NOT be banned at the Oktoberfest this year after all? - Heard it a few times on the radio today . . ....

You did hear correct.. the people in charge are pathetic whimps..

well according to the Abendzeitung, definitely from 01.01.09 the Fest will have to be smoke-free.
let's see...

Yes, they are giving them a pass thing year because the organisers reckon they can't get their shit together in time to abide by the ban. What a crock of shit. You say "No smoking here" and you kick anyone out that smokes, just like you kick out an Italian who's drunk more than 1 mass because you know he's about to chuck up over everyone.

If there is a problem with people going outside to smoke and getting back in when it's full, feel free to organise a sealed off area next to the tent where people can smoke and still get back in OK. This is of course optional.

Problem solved.

I agree with Hutcho. No preparations need to be made. You want to smoke, you go outside, and it's tough shit if you can't get back in. I really was looking forward to actually wearing a nicer dirndl this year because of the clear air, but I guess it's back to the same old smokey Ofest as always...

I'll bet that this time next year the the organisers will still have made fuck all effort to implement no smoking in the tents (although as Hutcho says, what do they actually need to implement) and will be bleating again that they need more time/bribing the relevant authorities (possibly) to get another extension.

If the tents 'claim' they are going to lose space due to having to create a smoking area maybe they should just ban anyone who has an arse takes up the space of 2 peoples. That way they can have the smoking area and probably increase the number of visitors at the same time.

Last night I was at the Georg Elser Halle for the Hot Chip concert and you wouldn't have thought there was a smoking ban! There were loads of people smoking and the security did F all, I was nearly beaten up for asking the guy next to me to stop smoking. So I can't see much happening at the Oktoberfest when the security are presented a load of drunks smoking - this year or next!

A few people were smoking at the Cure concert a couple of weeks ago at the Olympiahalle. No one said or did anything about it.

Sums it all up really.

Like I mentioned, they seem to deal with the Italians alright, and the people who dance on benches.

I also note from the SZ yesterday that two groups are going to court to try and get smoking clubs declared illegal.

This the place that used to be called Bavaria Bräu and got into financial difficulties a while back, you know, when the place was full of smokers, what did they blame it on then? We went there a while back with the Friday beer Garden mob and they got all pissy when there were a couple of beers outstanding, even though we'd spent a bloody fortune there over the course of the evening. Perhaps some decent customer service would help things.

Smoking bans are not the only reasons that pubs are having a hard time.
But if all other things remain equal, then falling trade is indicative.

Regarding the Wies'n, the KVR is worried about people flows and the potential for crushing around exits.
And alcohol fuelled violence from groups of smokers and anti-smokers.

The politicians have painted themselves into a corner by only listening to the shrillest anti-smoking lobbyists.

Fat people drink more.

FACT...

What, the place that used to be practically empty even on a Friday evening when you could smoke? Yeah, that would be the place.


Makes a pleaseant change from only listening to the fat wallets of the tobacco companies.

I won't be able to make O'fest this year since I'll be in Texas, but I'd like to wish you all (in advance) a happy and smokey O'fest. And remember, if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to go (just like no one is forcing me to read this thread)

Don't be rediculous, of course we're forced to go, it's the Oktoberfest, resistance is futile!

Errrr, the Wies'n is a massive corporate entertainment event for localy based companies. It is actual a must to go to the events when invited. In fact most of my Wies'n (FFS can we stop calling it Oktoberfest like a bunch of tourists, it'll be steins and pretzels next. Interrrrgrate people, interrrrrgrate!) drinking visits are now related to business contacts.

Is your wife still falling for that one???

I made up that you have one.

ff

I don't know if any of the hardcore antis on here ever worked in a beer tent.

Well I did and if there is one thing I can tell you - closing up the tent, after the people and the smoke left, left with only the BO, puke, faeces, beer and that rotting undefined something on the floor... you want something to cover that smell out of hell.

You want a sterile-healthy-bringthebuggy-greentea-mochafrappecappocino-saveawhalewhilefreeingtibet-wiesn? Go to a bloody Anheuser-Busch theme park and drink your flavoured water out of plastic cups FFS...

air freshener?

I used to work in bars and hated the combined ming of BO, puke, faeces, beer and that rotting undefined something on the floor AND stale cigarettes.

Why not some joss sticks? The scent matching the colour of the individual C&A dirndl, the to determine mantra and that lovely jasmine-chai...

Edit: I still do work bars as well and there is absolutely no way to compare a beer tent (keep in mind no A&B theme park!) with a bar.

it was an Irish Bar

why not compare? both involve putrid smells in enclosed spaces, the bar actually more enclosed in some cases.

I used to hum of beer and ciggies after work!

Show me an Irish bar with 5000-10000 (depending on the tent) max capacity and around 10000-20000 daily customers on a bad day, with St. Paddies on for two whole weeks...

but with bigger floor space, better ventilation, higher ceilings.
it's all relative.
it all stinks anyway.

Yes it is. Did you ever notice that it is actually "raining" inside the tents? Especially on hot days? Well I got news for you... it's not actually a monsoon or something like that, it's you, me and the others in the tent who actually provide that "shower". So much for better ventilation, more space, higher ceilings...

can't say I notice the 'rain'.
have been wet by other fluids but not this 'rain'.

Well its just come out that there will be no smoking ban in beer tents.

Can you clarify please mik?

There will be a smoking ban or there won't be a smoking ban?

There will be no smoking ban at the Oktoberfest this year. There will be one next year. The poor dears that run the Wiesn managed to convince the idiot politicians that 6 months wasn't enough time to saw a hole in the back wall and build a fenced off area for the children to go and smoke in.

Probably because they're having trouble getting the architect plans for the new tent configuration approved by the BauAmt!

Was out tonight in a location that has high food sales ie it's turnover is less effected by the smoking ban.
It is a location where the owner LOUDLY said he was in favour of the smoking ban and got a big write up in the local press.

Except that even he know has seen the problems and is changing the side room into a "smoking club" from this Friday.

And I finally got my hands on the turnover data today of the bar I am involved in running.
We made EUR 1500 / month less turnover in January and February compared to the previous year with exactly the same conditions - apart from the smoking ban.

Have you analysed this past just one year? Are you Sure the trading conditions are exactly the same?

Statistically speaking, you haven't got a barstool to sit on if you want to try and blame everything on the smoking ban. Doubless it will be a contributary factor though.

If people are indeed facing a 'rising' cost of living and falling real wages, perhaps they simply can't afford to go out as much as last year? Then the conditions for statistical comparison would not be the same. Hope that helps.

So now you see why it is ridiculous to allow some places to be smoking clubs, if everywhere was smoke free your smoking customers would have stayed at your place, but instead they've gone to the "Smokers clubs".
Once again I was out Friday night and the place was jumping, no problems with the smokers, they just pop outside for a couple of minutes and then they're back, ever so slightly smellier than they were before they went out, but we can live with that.

Real wages have fallen of course and this means people go out less.
Balancing that out is that our prices are some of the lowest and have stayed stable despite increases elsewhere.
But still the smoking ban carries a large part of the blame that the bar is taking EUR 1500 a month less.
I know it is due to the smoking ban because we can instantly name specific smoker customers who no longer frequent the bar or come less often or come for shorter periods. And we can see them in the raucherclubs that make up 50% or more of the pubs round here.

A blanket ban, but new legislation required, would create a "level playing field" but would be a theat to the existence of many of the places that have managed to get round the law by being private raucher clubs. Becasue it is the smaller, local, regular, more drinks orientated venues that have clearly suffered the most with the blanket ban in England.

We already had some nights that were non smoking at the demand of certain sections of our trade.
You'd think therefore now that we are totally non smoking and the number of such venues is quite small locally we'd be getting stormed
by those non-smokers who the militant antis claimed for years were prevented from going out becuase of smoking. The figures tell a different story.

Marketing tip.

Many non smoking venues still stink because the owners haven't taken the necessary steps of freshening up the places. I avoid these places because I still have a dry cleaning bill after being in them.

ff

Thanks for the marketing tip FrauFruit.
Funilly enough commenting on the fact that smoking had covered 101 various smells in pubs over the years is something I've been doing for a LONG time.

I've been arguing for a MAJOR rennovation of the toilets in there for about a year or so.
I came back to the issue again last night with a colleague. But if we are making a turnover of 18 000 a year less, it will be hard to be able to make the investment.

There is a powerful air conditioning system in the place to keep the air fresh.
The intake is on the street - where the smokers congregate.
Super eh? There is still the smell of smoke but we lose the smokers trade.

But it isn't the smell of the toilets as a rule that it keeping people away from pubs.
The Wirtshaus (with food , which acts as a puffer) I mentioned above, that argued loudly in favour of the ban but is now backtracking by opening a smoking club, has the nicest toilets I've seen in Munich outside the Bayerische Hof.

Places that are non smoking are losing smoking customers and non smokers who claimed they couldn't go out before are not making up the numbers.

Not in my experience they're not, everywhere I've been has had plenty of customers. Maybe the non smokers are not coming to your place because they're just going to nicer places. Especially if the loos stink!

What's your "experience", Allerhausen? How many of Munich's bars do you own or even work at, so that you can make such an informed statement? Or perhaps you're an accountant who does the books for a number of bars?

Where does this "experience" come from?

Mr A.
IF this is the case, why is a wirthshaus with food and very clean toilets that was in favour of the smoking ban and said so publicly now back tracking?

The traipsing back and forth to go outside to smoke, even IF patrons are allowed to take drinks outside cuts down on potential drinking time.
So even if the pub is full, turnover falls.

Maybe it is different where you go out, I'm just reporting what is happening near me.
Heard the first rumour reported back from a customer last night that we were going to close. There's always rumours, but still.

Just the evidence of my own eyes. MT keeps saying that it's all doom and gloom, from what I see that isn't the case. Just trying to show some balance, the way MT writes it everywhere is on the brink of closing down.