Yeah...sure...it's exactly like Liechtenstein...
Thanks for that. I laughed aloud.
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Bavaria's non-smoker protection law now passed
Total (sort of) ban, incl. Oktoberfest (not yet)
Thanks Hazza... it is tough to know which comparisons are appropriate though... comparing the non-compliance of pubs to non-compliance of tax dodgers is laughable... whereas comparing non-smokers to Nazis is simply logical.
hint, my point was that all of it is dumb, in case you missed that.
hint, my point was that all of it is dumb, in case you missed that.
Smokers will soon have to wear an armband with "I am a Smoker" on it. They will be pointed out to children and hushed whisperings behind hands will ensue. Groups of yobbish non-smokers will laugh and jeer at them and finally they will be interned in a Carcinogen Camp...
QUOTE (Hazza @ Mar 4 2008, 8:33 am) 
If it's "working fine" and "OK", then why are there so many smoking clubs?
Perhaps it's working fine precisely because there are "so many" smoking clubs. The really desperate people can stink themselves out in their little holes while the rest of the country can get on with their lives without dying and stuff.
I also take issue with your "so many" claim though – in Freising there are two smoking clubs out of some 50-60 pubs and restaurants. Nonetheless, the law is an ass for allowing even them.
QUOTE (Small Town Boy @ Mar 4 2008, 10:40 am)
...while the rest of the country can get on with their lives without dying
I also take issue with your "so many" claim though – in Freising there are two smoking clubs out of some 50-60 pubs and restaurants. Nonetheless, the law is an ass for allowing even them.
I also take issue with your "so many" claim though – in Freising there are two smoking clubs out of some 50-60 pubs and restaurants. Nonetheless, the law is an ass for allowing even them.
...everybody is dying my friend.
... there are 3000 smoking clubs now in Bayern, 200 of which are in munich...
QUOTE (Bilko @ Mar 4 2008, 12:31 pm)
... there are 3000 smoking clubs now in Bayern, 200 of which are in munich...
out of how many licenses drinking establishments, I'm honestly curious
Coming back to what I and others said from the start:
The biggest problems with smoking bans are faced by smaller pubs, with no food that rely on beer drinking regulars.
I have posted links on this happening in England.
Last week or the week before there was a story in the SZ on this happening in other German states where the smoking bans came in earlier.
These pubs are having a hard time of it and as I pointed out, 5 0ut or the 10 pubs between my house and my local are now smoking clubs.
Last weekend, 2 out of 3 pubs I was in are now smokers clubs. Weekend before it was four out of five. And I don't smoke!
The law effectively doesn't exist from my point of view.
The biggest problems with smoking bans are faced by smaller pubs, with no food that rely on beer drinking regulars.
I have posted links on this happening in England.
Last week or the week before there was a story in the SZ on this happening in other German states where the smoking bans came in earlier.
These pubs are having a hard time of it and as I pointed out, 5 0ut or the 10 pubs between my house and my local are now smoking clubs.
Last weekend, 2 out of 3 pubs I was in are now smokers clubs. Weekend before it was four out of five. And I don't smoke!
The law effectively doesn't exist from my point of view.
QUOTE (MonksTown @ Mar 4 2008, 5:58 pm)
The law effectively doesn't exist from my point of view.
And as far as I'm concerned it's one of the best things that has happened to me for a long time. It's improved my nights out no end, I love it.
QUOTE (Janx Spirit @ Mar 4 2008, 9:45 am)
Smokers will soon have to wear an armband with "I am a Smoker" on it.
Why? It's pretty fucking obvious, isn't it?
Mr A, I loved the first few days as my clothes didn't smell of smoke any more after a night out.
But the % of pubs that are smokers clubs is just so high now round here, it is as if the law didn't exist.
But the % of pubs that are smokers clubs is just so high now round here, it is as if the law didn't exist.
Sorry, the link's in German, but the head of the KVR doesn't think the law has a future either.
Basically saying that the law in it's current form will fail...
QUOTE
Wenn es um das gesetzliche Rauchverbot in der Gastronomie geht, findet Kreisverwaltungsreferent Wilfried Blume-Beyerle klare Worte: "Irrtum", "Ziel verfehlt" und "Ungetüm". Er ist sich sicher, dass das "Gesetz in dieser Form kippen wird"
Basically saying that the law in it's current form will fail...
...like it has in all the other countries that have passed similar legislation?
The hilarious thing here is that, for probably the first time in its history, Bavaria has actually done something ahead of its time. Watching all the conservatives (with a small 'C') flail around in their resulting discomfort is really highly amusing. In a couple of years' time everyone will wonder what the fuss was about, as the remaining loophole (smoking clubs) is closed.
The hilarious thing here is that, for probably the first time in its history, Bavaria has actually done something ahead of its time. Watching all the conservatives (with a small 'C') flail around in their resulting discomfort is really highly amusing. In a couple of years' time everyone will wonder what the fuss was about, as the remaining loophole (smoking clubs) is closed.
To close the smoking clubs loophole will mean tightening the legislation.
Can't see many CSU poiticians lining up to do that really...
Sure the law is "working" in other countries - the closures of smaller UK pubs with a working class customer base that mainly sold beer is proof of that.
Can't see many CSU poiticians lining up to do that really...
Sure the law is "working" in other countries - the closures of smaller UK pubs with a working class customer base that mainly sold beer is proof of that.
is it such a mission for the smaller pubs to become smoking clubs then now? how much is the license?
At least people in the UK can step outside without as much fear of the neighbours lodging noise complaints. It's not too bad here yet, because it's too cold to hang around outside for too long.
Summer will be interesting though...
Summer will be interesting though...
Problem with becoming a smoking club is that you can only admit members which means that you miss out on casual visitors.
From the link above:
So you need someone at the door controlling who comes in and you need to found a club with a president, a secretary and a treasurer. Just having someone at the door is a cost that many small bars can't afford.
From the link above:
QUOTE
Bei einem Raucherclub sind die Mitglieder vom Wirt individuell bestimmt und abgegrenzt, es muss eine wirksame Zugangskontrolle stattfinden und sichergestellt sein, dass die sogenannte Laufkundschaft keinen Zutritt erhält.
"Ad-hoc-Mitgliedschaften sind demnach nicht gestattet", sagt Blume-Beyerle. Vorstellbar sei aber, dass künftig Vereine gegründet werden müssten - mit Vorstand, Kassier und Schriftführer.
"Ad-hoc-Mitgliedschaften sind demnach nicht gestattet", sagt Blume-Beyerle. Vorstellbar sei aber, dass künftig Vereine gegründet werden müssten - mit Vorstand, Kassier und Schriftführer.
So you need someone at the door controlling who comes in and you need to found a club with a president, a secretary and a treasurer. Just having someone at the door is a cost that many small bars can't afford.
QUOTE (Small Town Boy @ Mar 4 2008, 6:26 pm)
...like it has in all the other countries that have passed similar legislation?
The hilarious thing here is that, for probably the first time in its history, Bavaria has actually done something ahead of its time. Watching all the conservatives (with a small 'C') flail around in their resulting discomfort is really highly amusing. In a couple of years' time everyone will wonder what the fuss was about, as the remaining loophole (smoking clubs) is closed.
The hilarious thing here is that, for probably the first time in its history, Bavaria has actually done something ahead of its time. Watching all the conservatives (with a small 'C') flail around in their resulting discomfort is really highly amusing. In a couple of years' time everyone will wonder what the fuss was about, as the remaining loophole (smoking clubs) is closed.
Yes, because you know so much more than the head of the KVR. Obviously your knowledge and expertise far outweighs his...
On one hand we've got non-smokers saying that the ban is great. On the other hand we've got people saying that in inner-city Munich there's no problem finding smoking-clubs. So there's no problem with the ban, right?
I can't understand why this would be an election issue - every party except the FDP voted for the ban.
I can't understand why this would be an election issue - every party except the FDP voted for the ban.
You expect an honest answer from party polticians on the issue?
QUOTE (Matt T @ Mar 4 2008, 9:10 pm)
On one hand we've got non-smokers saying that the ban is great. On the other hand we've got people saying that in inner-city Munich there's no problem finding smoking-clubs. So there's no problem with the ban, right?
So basically you're saying that the head KVR guy is talking out of his arse...
QUOTE (MonksTown @ Mar 5 2008, 1:16 am)
You expect an honest answer from party polticians on the issue?
I, uh... dang, they get me every time!
QUOTE (Hazza @ Mar 4 2008, 6:34 pm)
So you need someone at the door controlling who comes in and you need to found a club with a president, a secretary and a treasurer. Just having someone at the door is a cost that many small bars can't afford.
It may well be the case that they are supposed to have someone at the door, but in my (admittedly limited) experience, the pub either isn't checking or it's the waiter who checks.
QUOTE (Hazza @ Mar 4 2008, 6:41 pm)
Yes, because you know so much more than the head of the KVR. Obviously your knowledge and expertise far outweighs his...
He's entitled to his opinion and I'm entitled to mine. It's already well-established that Bavarians are hopeless at utilising international experience. I expect he still thinks that Ireland is the only other country to have a smoking ban.
QUOTE (Small Town Boy @ Mar 5 2008, 12:54 pm)
It may well be the case that they are supposed to have someone at the door, but in my (admittedly limited) experience, the pub either isn't checking or it's the waiter who checks.
Right, if they started policing this properly, as per the law (which they are hinting is going to happen soon), then do you agree there will be a problem?
QUOTE (Small Town Boy @ Mar 5 2008, 12:54 pm)
He's entitled to his opinion and I'm entitled to mine.
Sure, but then don't come on here and say that the ban is working as if it's a fact, when people with clearly far more experience and knowledge are saying the opposite.
QUOTE (Small Town Boy @ Mar 5 2008, 12:54 pm)
It's already well-established that Bavarians are hopeless at utilising international experience. I expect he still thinks that Ireland is the only other country to have a smoking ban.
Yes, it's quite obvious that they drafted and introduced this law without drawing on international experience. Otherwise it wouldn't have been such a cock up and they wouldn't have to look at amending the law now.
QUOTE (Small Town Boy @ Mar 5 2008, 12:54 pm)
in my (admittedly limited) experience, the pub either isn't checking or it's the waiter who checks.
Why have a law that isn't enforced?
It's an honest question.
QUOTE (MonksTown @ Mar 4 2008, 5:58 pm)
Coming back to what I and others said from the start:
The biggest problems with smoking bans are faced by smaller pubs, with no food that rely on beer drinking regulars.
I have posted links on this happening in England.
Last week or the week before there was a story in the SZ on this happening in other German states where the smoking bans came in earlier.
These pubs are having a hard time of it and as I pointed out, 5 0ut or the 10 pubs between my house and my local are now smoking clubs.
Last weekend, 2 out of 3 pubs I was in are now smokers clubs. Weekend before it was four out of five. And I don't smoke!
The law effectively doesn't exist from my point of view.
The biggest problems with smoking bans are faced by smaller pubs, with no food that rely on beer drinking regulars.
I have posted links on this happening in England.
Last week or the week before there was a story in the SZ on this happening in other German states where the smoking bans came in earlier.
These pubs are having a hard time of it and as I pointed out, 5 0ut or the 10 pubs between my house and my local are now smoking clubs.
Last weekend, 2 out of 3 pubs I was in are now smokers clubs. Weekend before it was four out of five. And I don't smoke!
The law effectively doesn't exist from my point of view.
have you ever considered the possibility that it is a good thing that drinking-only establishements are suffering and may die out due to the smoking ban? Have you considered that it might not be such a good idea for people to be whiling away all their free time in smokey dives drinking their livers into scelosis?
Britain has a very bad drinking culture. The sooner people can go out to an establishement without the single intent on getting bladdered the better. Combining a drinking and eating culture (smoke free of course) seems to improve the drinking culture considerably. I won't be mourning the loss of a dingy dark whole where three men and a dog waste their lives away. I also won't be supporting any bar that allows smoking with my custom.
QUOTE (Hazza @ Mar 4 2008, 6:21 pm)
Sorry, the link's in German, but the head of the KVR doesn't think the law has a future either.
Basically saying that the law in it's current form will fail...
Basically saying that the law in it's current form will fail...
I totally agree. The way they implemented this law is a complete mess. There is only one reason that is valid for banning smoking in pubs/restaurants, and that is under work place health and safety. This is the way that every country has done it so far, as far as I know, except for Germany. The way they have implemented it here, it has simply nothing to do with that, and the reasons they have chosen to do it are completely invalid.
QUOTE (Hazza @ Mar 5 2008, 2:57 am)
So basically you're saying that the head KVR guy is talking out of his arse...
I'd expect nothing else from anyone from the KVR. It's entirely irrelevant if this law is a mess or not. If there are problems with the smoking ban legislation as it stands then it will be fixed by ammendments but you few who refuse to accept that smoking in public places is not acceptable have to get used to one fact: The smoking ban will not be repealed.
QUOTE (HellesAngel @ Mar 5 2008, 2:08 pm)
I'd expect nothing else from anyone from the KVR.
Surely the head of the KVR, which isn't exactly known as the most flexible of government organs when it comes to the law wouldn't be saying the law is bollix, if it wasn't errrrm bollix.
Bayer-Blumentopf of whatever he is called has said there needs to be an exception for the Wies'n etc and an exception for tiny one room pubs.
Funilly enought, some posters have been saying that for months.
Funilly enought they are non-smokers with expereience of the pub trade.
Funny that.
This is getting boring now ...
Just its really funny that everybody else in the world has accepted that second hand smoke kills, and just got on with life after smoking bans.
Just its really funny that everybody else in the world has accepted that second hand smoke kills, and just got on with life after smoking bans.
(sigh)
This thread is NOT about whether or not second-hand smoke kills, but the implementation of the smoking ban in Bavaria. As a former smoker I think that the implementation of the ban has been farcical. I also find it absolutely fucking annoying that many of the places that I frequented casually are now smoking clubs, and that I have had to pay a fee (sometimes as high as 5€) to join their club just to get inside. Ludicrous!!
This thread is NOT about whether or not second-hand smoke kills, but the implementation of the smoking ban in Bavaria. As a former smoker I think that the implementation of the ban has been farcical. I also find it absolutely fucking annoying that many of the places that I frequented casually are now smoking clubs, and that I have had to pay a fee (sometimes as high as 5€) to join their club just to get inside. Ludicrous!!
So now the CSU is talking about changing the laws - apparently they're worried about upcoming state elections. Personally I suspect that relaxing the laws would lose them more votes that they'd gain.
What's more, the particular area where they want to change the laws is for party-tents, i.e. Oktoberfest. So they're reconsidering the law for a situation which hasn't even occurred yet this year.
Is that the scent of lobbyist's money I smell, or are they just making sure everyone knows that they have no idea what they're doing?
What's more, the particular area where they want to change the laws is for party-tents, i.e. Oktoberfest. So they're reconsidering the law for a situation which hasn't even occurred yet this year.
Is that the scent of lobbyist's money I smell, or are they just making sure everyone knows that they have no idea what they're doing?
QUOTE (JerseyBoy @ Mar 6 2008, 9:34 am)
I have had to pay a fee (sometimes as high as 5€) to join their club just to get inside. Ludicrous!!
would that be 5€ a year?
I think it's a one-off fee. Crazy!!
Yup € 5 a year to join a smoking club seems hat there is a loop hole in the law that allows pubs and clubs to get around the smoking law
QUOTE (Matt T @ Mar 6 2008, 9:47 am)
What's more, the particular area where they want to change the laws is for party-tents, i.e. Oktoberfest. So they're reconsidering the law for a situation which hasn't even occurred yet this year.
There is more than one Fest in Bayern as well you know.
It's March.
There's only 63 days until the Berg starts.
And where is that near? Oh yeah Nürnberg, where the CSU just got their arses spanked in the city election.
The clock really is ticking for the Fest season, the Berg location in particular is pretty small, site work will start soon and providing smoking areas is going to be an issue in any case, but how can they plan when the law doesn't appear to be stable?
Even though the whole thing has been not thought through from start to finish, a bit of thinking now would be an idea.
Not because I want to smoke or want to breathe smoke in, it just needs to be a fair go and give licencees a fair chance at compliance.
Because having a law with non-enforcement or that is ignored helps nobody.
If my translation of Morning Man Mike today is correct it seems that smoking will now be allowed at the Wiesn 2008, typical backsliding political move after the votes are counted.
I heard that too, although not on morning Mike, whoever that is. Apparently the tent owners have persuaded the authorities that they don't have time to plan and build separate smoking areas for this year. Report from Bayern 5 in German.
Common sense prevails at last.
the Abendzeitung says there will be special 'smoking rooms' whatever that means.
from 2010 things will change again:
from 2010 things will change again:
QUOTE
Rauchen bleibt demnach auf der Wiesn zwar grundsätzlich verboten, es werde aber in diesem und im nächsten Jahr „von Sanktionen noch freigestellt“. Erst 2010 müssen Raucher auf dem größten Volksfest der Welt mit Bußgeldern rechnen, wenn sie sich nicht von ihrem Glimmstängel im Zelt trennen können. Bis dahin müssen sich die Wiesn-Wirte etwas einfallen lassen.
By 2010 (200th anniversary) the tent owners will have had time to rearrange their tent space. The Süddeutsche Zeitung reports that the now inside toilet space could be moved to the garden area and a part of the garden area will be standing room only smoking. This reduces the outside seating but provides more room for more tables squeezed even more tightly together. The toilets and smoking area will be accessable from the tent only.
But: When the tents are full to bursting I bet non-smokers will take their beer out to those areas and stay. I mean, who is going to check if you go back in when you've finished your cigarette? And if I am in Boxe 16 (front right of the tent) and the smoking area is outside Boxe 10 (back left of the tent) will I really box my way through the throng to puff my gasper? Hardly.
QUOTE
Ob sich die Politik nun aber auf eine Gesetzesänderung oder lediglich auf neue Vollzugsregelungen verständigen wird, ist derzeit ungewiss. Es kursiert aber bereits ein Vorschlag zur Lösung des Rauchproblems auf der Wiesn, der sich beharrlich in den Wirte-, Verwaltungs- und Regierungskreisen hält. Er lautet: Um den Rauchern auch bei überfüllten Zelten den Zugang zu ermöglichen, müssten die Toiletten nach draußen verlegt werden, weil davon auszugehen sei, dass sie anderenfalls als heimliche Raucherbereiche genutzt würden.
Daher sollten die Wirte ihre Biergärten verkleinern und bei den Toiletten einen Bereich umfrieden, der dann den Rauchern zur Verfügung stehen könne. Die Wirte könnten dann im Gegenzug im Bereich der jetzigen Toiletten im Zelt neue Plätze schaffen. Stadt, Kreisverwaltungsreferat (KVR) und die meisten der Wiesn-Wirte halten diese Lösung jedoch derzeit für schwer umsetzbar.
Daher sollten die Wirte ihre Biergärten verkleinern und bei den Toiletten einen Bereich umfrieden, der dann den Rauchern zur Verfügung stehen könne. Die Wirte könnten dann im Gegenzug im Bereich der jetzigen Toiletten im Zelt neue Plätze schaffen. Stadt, Kreisverwaltungsreferat (KVR) und die meisten der Wiesn-Wirte halten diese Lösung jedoch derzeit für schwer umsetzbar.
But: When the tents are full to bursting I bet non-smokers will take their beer out to those areas and stay. I mean, who is going to check if you go back in when you've finished your cigarette? And if I am in Boxe 16 (front right of the tent) and the smoking area is outside Boxe 10 (back left of the tent) will I really box my way through the throng to puff my gasper? Hardly.
Can they possibly get those tables and benches any closer together?
Not Germany but how Witherspoons sees things in the UK
Could also put this in the binge drinking section as a lot of the article is about that.
Could also put this in the binge drinking section as a lot of the article is about that.
So at the wolrd's biggest beer session the law isn't going to applied?
That's hardly a sucess for the law is it?
Whatever happenend to the law and orde CSU and their objection to "Rechtsfreie Zonen" ?
That's hardly a sucess for the law is it?
Whatever happenend to the law and orde CSU and their objection to "Rechtsfreie Zonen" ?
Seems more like a failing of the politicians than the law. Big, local, well connected business drive local politicians... sadly nothing new to see here.
Oh well, looks like I'll have to wait a little while before enjoying a smoke-free Oktoberfest. I'm not terribly concerned about this for the fest though, since given past experiences, smoke smell is the least offensive of the crap that ends up contaminating one's wardrobe there (seriously, its disgusting!)
Oh well, looks like I'll have to wait a little while before enjoying a smoke-free Oktoberfest. I'm not terribly concerned about this for the fest though, since given past experiences, smoke smell is the least offensive of the crap that ends up contaminating one's wardrobe there (seriously, its disgusting!)
(seriously, its disgusting!)
QUOTE (thefirelane @ Mar 7 2008, 10:08 am)
(seriously, its disgusting!)
That's why you should drink copious amounts of beer so that you don't notice until the next day, when you pick up your discarded clothes and think a tramp/hobo has slept in them!
QUOTE (jellyone @ Mar 7 2008, 6:46 am)
If my translation of Morning Man Mike today is correct it seems that smoking will now be allowed at the Wiesn 2008, typical backsliding political move after the votes are counted.
This must be some new form of democracy... where it doesn't matter what the votes are, since the politicians always know better than the voters?!
Perhaps Germany should just hold a referendum on the issue and let the voters decide once and for all?
QUOTE (Owain Glyndwr @ Mar 5 2008, 1:24 pm)
have you ever considered the possibility that it is a good thing that drinking-only establishements are suffering and may die out due to the smoking ban? Have you considered that it might not be such a good idea for people to be whiling away all their free time in smokey dives drinking their livers into scelosis?
Britain has a very bad drinking culture. The sooner people can go out to an establishement without the single intent on getting bladdered the better. Combining a drinking and eating culture (smoke free of course) seems to improve the drinking culture considerably. I won't be mourning the loss of a dingy dark whole where three men and a dog waste their lives away. I also won't be supporting any bar that allows smoking with my custom.
Britain has a very bad drinking culture. The sooner people can go out to an establishement without the single intent on getting bladdered the better. Combining a drinking and eating culture (smoke free of course) seems to improve the drinking culture considerably. I won't be mourning the loss of a dingy dark whole where three men and a dog waste their lives away. I also won't be supporting any bar that allows smoking with my custom.
I have to agree with OG here. Finally someone talking some sense.
QUOTE (Bipa @ Mar 7 2008, 10:33 am)
This must be some new form of democracy... where it doesn't matter what the votes are, since the politicians always know better than the voters?!
At what point did that become a new form of democracy?
According to the CSU fraction leader, the law wouldn't need to be changed in order to make exceptions for beer tents and small bars where the owner works without staff. The Health Ministry has the competence to change the implementation regulations without involving the Bavarian parliament:
"Neue Diskussion um Rauchverbot", SZ, March 4th
I liked another quote that said that the strict anti-smoking law hurt the Bavarian motto of "leben und leben lassen", which made traditional CSU supporters (along with other issues) boycott the election.
"Neue Diskussion um Rauchverbot", SZ, March 4th
QUOTE
Während sich das bayerische Kabinett in dieser Frage in Schweigen hüllt, fühlt sich CSU-Fraktionschef Georg Schmid allerdings gar nicht demontiert. Im Gespräch mit sueddeutsche.de legt er sich fest: "Das Gesetz ist so richtig, es ist ein vernünftiges Gesetz." Und: "Das Gesetz bleibt bestehen." Eine Änderung komme "unter keinen Umständen in Frage".
Eine Hintertür für eine Lockerung lässt er sich allerdings offen. Bei der Frage, ob für Bierzelte oder Ein-Mann-Kneipen eine Ausnahme gelten soll, gehe es um Fragen des Vollzugs. Dafür sei aber nicht der Landtag zuständig, sondern das Gesundheitsministerium.
Eine Hintertür für eine Lockerung lässt er sich allerdings offen. Bei der Frage, ob für Bierzelte oder Ein-Mann-Kneipen eine Ausnahme gelten soll, gehe es um Fragen des Vollzugs. Dafür sei aber nicht der Landtag zuständig, sondern das Gesundheitsministerium.
I liked another quote that said that the strict anti-smoking law hurt the Bavarian motto of "leben und leben lassen", which made traditional CSU supporters (along with other issues) boycott the election.
Sweet - "leben und leben lassen"
Perhaps kill youself and help kill others is more appropriate but it's amazing what you can convice yourself if you want.
Perhaps kill youself and help kill others is more appropriate but it's amazing what you can convice yourself if you want.
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