Bavaria's non-smoker protection law now passed

I'm envisioning a Maxwell Smart Cone-of-Silence type contraption.



Then again, they never got that to work, so maybe not.

I'll have to talk to some of my friends at EPO , looks like I may not get the patent.

This 'debate' long ago stopped being useful. On one hand we have HelterSkelter denying that cigarette smoke is a health hazard at all, and on the other we have Hazza saying the equally hyperbolic exaggeration of if we implement any worker protection measures, then we can't morally have door guards without requiring them to wear hazmat suits.

This bores me. If the pro-smoking lobby is going to willfully lower their IQ for purposes of ‘winning’ by attrition, fine… go head.

I have a better idea.

Put up or shut up.

And the anti's side is pure logic and sound reasoning? Yeah...did you forget to take those blinkers off this morning?

These posts actually prove the point of the smoking lobby´s idiocy. The minute you stoop to criticising someone´s English you know you should really shut up. Clearly Hazza has a problem shutting up at all. I can now see why he and his Missus get along so well when problems that should be long forgotten by now and were cleared up about 2 or 3 years ago are still on the agenda.

Anyhow, I fully welcome German people to contribute here including your girlfriend Hazza, but her English is by no means native level. Please don´t overuse that term. As for the 5 year olds and growing up part, at least there´s still hope for them. You, unfortunately, have missed the train. No pun intended.

It is really great news. For years we have suffered the obnoxious and poisonous smoke from 'coffin nails' in silence. Finally democracy has prevailed and the majority can breathe again. As for smokers, please feel free to continue with your disgusting and dangerous habit, just don't do it anywhere near me or the rest of the free-breathing world. Good luck with your charming smoke-house parties, I'll be off down the pub ...

I don't understand it when people say "democracy has prevailed".

Surely if it was the will of the majority, then there would be someone catering to it. Even if thefirelane's theory was correct then wouldn't there still be demand for at least a few bars to be smoke free? Aside from that, where's the democracy? Was there a vote on the issue when we all weren't looking? Did the people representing us in the Bayrischer Landstag use this as an issue to getting reelected? No, of course they didn't.

So please, tell us how "democracy has prevailed" in this instance?

Actually, I have to admit, I was in the UK last week and I did smell the odd fart or rank smell in a pub, but it was great to come home absolutely smoke-free.

Went out last night to a restaurant and out of 8 people, 2 were smoking. We were the furthest from them, but I still stank of smoke when I got home. I really don´t think it is the majority who smoke and the market has failed to pick up on this.

It's the law. Go and have a fag and get over it.

Sure it's the law, but please explain how "Democracy has prevailed"?

Common Hazza. That ones easy.

The whole point of democracy is you vote for somebody who then goes away and pretty well ignores what the majority want but implements what they think is best/what the best paying lobby group wants. Then around election time they trot out another series of lies.

Ciggy companies obviously havn't been paying enough.

Sorry, I was thinking of the concept of democracy and not how it actually works...

Restaurateur Introduces Smoking Hole

A restaurateur in Lower Saxony has refused to be deterred by the state's new ban on smoking in bars and restaurants: He has sawed three holes in the wall so patrons can smoke "outside." ...

Somebody above posted that one.

It's a great pic but any respose I can think of would really have to be on the adult section.

Heard on the radio that a directive has gone out not to levy any fines during the first six weeks of the smoking ban.

Copycat.

Copied from here, though. €5 fine is not enough!

I tend to think that the non-smoking bars have failed due to the fact that most groups of friends are made up of a proportion of both smokers and non-smokers. Thus, when venues for a night out get discussed, the non-smokers usually cave in and accept the desire of the smokers to smoke, in order to maintain the group as a whole. Non-smoking barhoppers are generally, up until the end of this year at least, more used to sacrificing their morals for a night out for the sake of their mates, and also to go to a good bar, than smokers.

OK, but it's not Democracy...well maybe in the sense that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a Democracy.

True, but this relates to your earlier statement about how if it's a democracy, then non-smoking bars should therefore be more popular. This explains why it doesn't have to be a non-smoking democracy for the non-smoking bars to fail to prosper.

Well kind of...the fact that there is not a single non-smoking bar in Munich (correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I don't know of any) says to me that there's not even a niche market there.

2 drinks and you're sacrificing your morals all over the place anyway though. And you think smokers are icky!

Swedish Chef has hit the nail on the head, and as for democracy (or the concept thereof) then surely it is the reflection of the will of the majority, in which case, this ban is quite simply that, until I missed something and now a mojority of the population smoke?

Usually, when folks invoke the will of the majority as democracy, they are talking about Alexis de Tocqueville's tyranny of the majority which is not so far from Joseph Weydemeyer's dictatorship of the proletariat and is not democracy.

jpoc

I can't wait for this prediction to come true. We non-smokers going up to smokers Dirty Harry-style "Go ahead punk, make my day".


Although I don't think it will take very long for a smoker here to refuse a polite request to stub out.

I had this just yesterday. Some guy was smoking in the entrance area of our institute's building. I did
not actually see him at first, I just came over because I was disturbed by the smell. Smoking has been
forbidden in the building for quite some time. I asked him nicely, several times, to extinguish his
cigarette or leave the building. He refused both, the reason being "it is cold outside". In the end I
just snatched his cigarette and stepped on it. He actually started attacking me, but his mate managed
to convince him that this was not a good idea: I am 6'5" and have been playing rugby for quite some time.
Mind you, that guy was sober (at least as far as I could tell). Curious what will happen when people
are drunk ...

If you can't handle a serious discussion don't blame it on the others. Just because people don't agree to your superiority and yes-so-goody-good-I-am-so-bl##dy-witty, you don't have to twist their words, intentionally misreflect their views and by doing that make a twat out of yourself... keep playing your games and never question yourself...

You not only bore me... get a life.

There was one beside the Viktualienmarkt some 10 years ago. It didn't last 6 months as far as I can remember.

One other problem for the publicans here (as compared to Ireland and GB where you have to pay straight away) occured to me last night when I was out for a drink with a crowd of non-smokers, (I was the only smoker). Being the considerate smoker that I am I went outside for my smoke, and while I was standing there with only my fag for company I thought to myself that I could just bugger off without paying and no one would notice it. Now I'm not saying that that kind of thing will increase big time, germans tend to be too honest for that, but I could imagine it becoming a problem in certain "working class" pubs.

You weren't complaining at the time, buttercup.

There's going to be a 6 week moratorium where the ban won't be enforced.

Now either they are being really dumb, or those in power don't want it to be enforced. Why would you introduce a law and then not enforce it for 6 weeks? How will that delay help?

All it will do is send out a signal that it's OK to ignore the law and encourage people to do that even after the 6 weeks is up. If they really thought the law shouldn't be enforced until mid-February, then that's when they should have introduced it, though I don't see what's supposed to change between now and then.

The whole thing is a stupid farce...

Maybe for the first time on this topic I agree with you.

Are there any elections coming up?

Funny, my thought exactly !!

Ah...did you see what I did there?

I pointed out from the start that the legislation was crap and unworkable. But you were too busy slapping each other on the back and whooping and wanting to "Bring on Jan 1".

But now it looks like because of the crapness of the legislation, the whole thing is at risk of not working at all. Do you realise now what I was trying to say?

I'm against a wholesale ban - I think that smoking bans shouldn't be legislated, but occur through market forces. But if a law must be made, then it needs to be workable and it needs to be fair. And this law is neither. The authorities realise this and are taking their own steps of non-enforcement as a result.

@Hazza, that's one opinion and I'm glad you're allowed to have it.

The farce is the way they are fucking up something that so many other countries and regions have managed to implement smoothly. If Italy can implement a smoking ban with all of their polictical in fighting how can it be that it is beyond the organisational skills of our highly organised Germans?

angela merkel smokes 60 a day. marlboro reds.

By the way - getting back to the passive smoking thing (only briefly) though. I wanted to see if I could find a picture of a lung on the net from someone who's died of passive smoking. I found a lot of smokers compared to non-smokers lungs, but couldn't find a single passive smoker's lung.

Given that it's such a hot topic at the moment and that apparently thousands of people die of passive smoking every year, I think it's strange that none seem available.

If anyone could point me to a picture, I'd be curious to see it.

This is exactly where I sit too.


I also agree with this, how can ze Germans manage to fuck this so bad. Pass a law that comes into effect a couple of weeks later? Very well thought out by our organised and methodical hosts

Well that's the thing though...If a fair, workable law was introduced, then I would not have been so vocal in its opposition. Remember, I'm still kind of looking at this through bar owner's eyes. If there's a ban and it doesn't harm the industry, then that's OK - I still don't necessarily agree, but fine.

What are you expecting to see? Lungs full of Tar? That's for the 60 a day guys. It's cancer caused my carcogens. Just search for pics of cancer.

Which, with all due respect, isn't the most neutral position to come from.

I don't think the law makers job is to look after bar owners , it's to look after society in general.

Well I'd expect to see a lung that's somewhere between a non-smoker and a smoker. I'd expect to see significantly more tar than in that of a non-smoker. Of course it's not possible to see all the carcinogens, but I would think that one could still see a difference, just from the increase in exposure to tar, right?

You have a degree or other experience in medical science too now, Hazza?

Also, here's a reference regards the six-week grace period: Sechs Wochen Schonfrist (SZ)

Note that inspectors will still be out in force and fines will be applied to those who refuse to stub out.

I’d watch out though… this sort of ‘simplified’ thinking often turns out to be wrong. I’m not trying to be insulting or anything (this time ) but I’ve just seen enough assumptions like this turn out to not be true… for instance, is it really the tar that causes cancer? I don’t know. Perhaps the tar is a heavier substance that falls out of the air faster, whereas the cancer causing substances (oxygen free radicals for instance) linger in the air just as much but don’t necessarily blacken the lungs.

My point being, visual inspection isn't the greatest indicator since color probably is a correlating factor instead of a cause.

I don't see where I claimed any more than curiosity and what I as a layman would expect to see. That's why I'd like to see one though, just to see what it actually does look like.


What inspectors? Munich police have already stated that they won't be doing any inspections.

So basically inspectors that don't exist aren't going to fine anyone for 6 weeks unless they refuse to do what they're asked. Nice one!!

I imagine the point is, so the bars can enforce it themselves and get every one used to it without the fear of a fine should someone light up. The point isn't so they can simply ignore it for 6 weeks, but rather 'ease into it'. It kinda makes sense when you think of it that way.

Of course in practice, it'll be used to extend the status quo...particularly as the police have said they won't be doing any inspections.

Again...no thought

So you are saying exactly what will be better?

Right now we have a solution where those that make an honest effort to comply will out of danger safely by the time enforcement starts. Those that choose not to comply will have problems

The only other solution would simply be to start enforcement immediately with no adjustment period.

So you would like a solution that punishes even the people who would like time to make an honest effort?

I’m not going to say everything was well thought out (starting in summer is a brilliant idea, I think). But things like this show you are just complaining about everything simply because it exists… I guarantee if they started enforcement immediately on the evening of Jan 1 you’d be here complaining about that and saying we should have an adjustment time.

Damned if you do, damned it you don’t….

I'm just pointing to more incompetence...

In my opinion, because of the bad way this law is being implemented, it has a real chance of failure.

You can't point at the UK and Italy and Ireland and the US and Australia and say it worked there, so it'll work here. They didn't rush the laws through without proper forethought and keep changing their minds.

Until the start of November, Beer tents and festivals were going to be exempt and bars could have an extra smoking room. Until 2 days ago, the ban was going to be brought in on 1 January and smoking was going to be banned from then. Now there's a 6 week moratorium. The cops had stated that they wouldn't be doing any inspections, but the SZ talks of inspectors doing the rounds. Who are they? and where did they come from all of a sudden? Nobody can answer the question of noise. Does that mean we can now sit in the beer garden at Max Emanual all night long? Because previously you either had to go inside or go home at 11pm - but if they're going to allow people to go outside there to smoke, then it's not fair on the non-smokers if only the smokers can sit ouside all night on a hot summer's night.

I think I'm cynical about this for good reason. The whole process is one big bucket of shit.

Yes there is in Bavaria... odd, innit?