Bavaria's non-smoker protection law now passed

That's where you're mistaken.

There is ZERO tolerance for noise on the street.

I asked Hazza ages ago about his personal experience with noise violations. He was NEVER ONCE fined.



We both said a lot more on the other thread too which can all be read there...

You are right to bring this up. The noise levels outside factor will play a much larger roll in Munich than it has in Italy, Ireland, or bigger cities in Munich. And you know what will happen? The bouncers will tell you to smoke quietly, go back inside, or leave. Bars without bouncers will probably be forced to hire some to control the noise or face Abmahnungen. Eventually, people will lose interest in fighting with bouncers, standing in the cold or rain or snow, and realize that smoking shouldn't really be that important a factor in their lives.

Banning smoking in restaurants is simply the first step towards the greater good. It's a law forcing smokers to realize that smoking is bad for your health and can be harmful to others around you, a movement that the country must embrace at some point. If you take a look at the states now, very few people smoke. It definitely wasn't that way 10 years ago. I just can't grasp why you guys are so passionate about clinging onto your cancer sticks. I understand that it's an addiction, but haven't you ever had the urge to quit? Stop thinking about the bar owners for a second, don't you think that this, in the long run, will be better for you?

As you know, this has alraedy been implemented in the UK. It doesn't seem to be a problem for clubs as they usually provide a smoking-corner in one of their courtyards, and a few pubs do, but of course the majroity of the pubs don't have the luxury of being a big building. So yes, most people stand outside in front of the pub; sometimes you're allowed to take your drink with you, sometimes you're not.

Yeah, because I didn't have to send people outside to smoke...

Wow, it's a good job all those dosey smokers who don't realise what's good for them have people around to POINT OUT THE BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS and save them from themselves

Then ask the guys in Kilians, they are having big problems with the neighbours as it is.

I can't find any links to it now, but one of the few exceptions is the interrogation room in police stations. I can just foresee the following scene:

COP: Joe Blow, you have been arrested for repeatedly breaking Bavaria's strict non-smoking law meant to protect the general populace from harmful second-hand smoke. It is my duty as a police officer to take down your name, addresse, age and statement.

JOE BLOW (lighting a cigarette): Fire ahead, officer.

COP (lighting a cigarillo): Now, let's get down to business.

P.S. The neighbors will not complain about the noise only, they will complain about the harmful second-hand smoke and the smell. Or just toss buckets of water on the smokers, no matter how silent.

And always has been. ZERO tolerance doesn't stop noise though. People have always been noisy on leaving pubs - that's nature - and pubs have always had to deal with it.

I assume you don't drink alcohol, eat fast food or go outside at all due to various toxins and air pollution. If you do then according to yourself you are either dozey or a hypocrit.

Isn't it up to the neighborhood to approve the establishment in the first place? Can neighbors actually do anything but complain? What are the rules behind this?

so a pub/club located down a side street will have to be careful about the noise levels outside, late at night, when smokers pop out for a quick cigarette.
but will pubs & clubs in non-residential areas (ie Kunstparkost) really have such a problem?

Home?

Maybe, but hey, at least i can spell the word

Possibly not but those places are in the minority.

So making it even harder for pubs to deal with is the obvious solution there then is it??


The ones in non-residential areas will be OK...But most bars and pubs happen to be in residential areas.

Restaurants will be fine too, because people generally eat earlier, so if they're outside having a smoke at 9pm, then they won't have a problem...

Cool - I'm sure that'll be great for business...

Someone asked about Oktoberfest.. well according to their website they are thinking about raising the prices (again) for beer to cover the costs of the extra personnel they will now have to hire.

any excuse to raise the prices, eh?

What extra personnel will they have to hire?

well the breweries will be happy then, they love raising their prices.

so how will the smoking ban effect the small bar-owner in a residential area; will his trade suffer so much? he will certainly have a bit more work to keep his outside smokers quiet while they pop out for late night ciggies.

my smoking friends in the UK (as I posted previously) had previously been against the ban, but now they've just accepted it and a few of them are actually glad cuz they smoke less.
when we went clubbing in York a few weeks (on the main road in a residential area) they got little arm bands to wear so they could go out the club to smoke outside in a little fenced-off area and come back in again (without paying £15 entry fee again grr!) is this a possible Oktoberfest solution?
in the pubs they'd just nipped out now and then together for a ciggy,

MoiLV is making sense here. Think "big picture" people. Sure, the law is going to suck for some small bar owners who can't have their patrons make noise outside, but it's all for the greater good. Those bars will have to adapt or close down. Sure, it sucks for them, but it's a worthwhile sacrifice for the population at large.

I smoke myself and I can't wait for the first of January. I was living in Ireland in 2004 when it became the first country in the world to ban smoking in public spaces and it has been a success.
Tobacco smoke is toxic and I find it disturbing that people try to put profit margins ahead of the health of workers. Here is an example of how the health of bar workers has improved since the ban in Ireland.

The Vintners’ Federation of Ireland (VFI) launched a massive PR campaign against the ban in the months preceeding it's introduction trying to scare people into believing that the ban would ultimately kill any social interactions (i.e. your chances of getting laid) with images of isolated lonely guys sitting in an empty pub.

They also claimed that the ban would kill off the bar trade in a sudden drop in sales. They are still trying to get people to swallow this one.

The reality of the ban is that workers and customers alike are breathing clean, non-toxic air. Your chances of "social interactions" have increased with the unexpected arrival of "smirting". The pub sales apocalypse never arrived, instead a steady decline, which started before the introduction of the ban largely due to ridiculous drinks prices, has continued.

The one and only downside to the ban is now obvious potency of the poisonous Guinness farts.

Sláinte! And roll on the new year!

Sounds fair enough to me. I guess they will have to hire extra security staff to police people going in and out to smoke. Seems reasonable to me as long as it's not much more than 1 Euro per Maß.

I would expect the price in bars to increase as well if they have to hire bouncers to control the noise outside. Such is life though, everything comes with a price.

Can you suggest how a pub in a residential area can "adapt"?

SiM - I imagine that more personnel will be needed at the entrances/exits of the tents for those going out to smoke every 5 minutes. Can't find what their strategy is yet on their website though.

I am somewhat in favour of the smoking ban - liberty ends where it infringes the liberty of others. Second-hand smoke, while overrated as a health hazard, is at least bothersome to non-smokers in a public place such as a bar or a restaurant. Therefore, restrictions or even a ban appear reasonable enough.

What I don't like about the ban is the direction we are going here generally: there are enough health nazis among politicians and bureaucrats in Berlin and Brussels who would love to ban lots of other substances as well, for the sake of Volksgesundheit and bossing people around.

I do not like to be ordered what is good for me and what is not by an almighty state. How much fun is life when you can't do something silly or dangerous once in a while?

Publicans are responsible for any noise related to their establishment, be it music from inside or guests outside. Worst case they can lose their licence if there are too many complaints.

I think this is what they will have to do, only accessible from inside the tent, can't be that hard to organise, there's always a sort of dead area around the back of the tents.

exactly...and there's always 4 or 5 seedy security men just standing around scratching their heads.
will give them something to do!

Nothing against people risking their own life, but do they have to risk mine at the same time as well?

Yes, it certainly is. Anybody up for banning cars, lorries, trucks etc etc etc? No, didn't think so.


Anyone for putting speed limit technology in cars? Whats the point in speed limits, when cars are built to go quicker. Any deaths ever caused by speed?

I can fully understand people not wanting to go somewhere smoky. Even as a smoker myself, I wanted to burn most of my clothes after a night out in GM's.

What I find utterly ridiculous though, is this bloody spin they keep putting on shit, saying its all about "protecting the health of bar staff". Do me a fucking favour. Part and parcel of the job. Every job has health risks, and I would imagine deaths caused by workplace stress probably outweighs the number of passive-smoking barman deaths.

Maybe they should move out of town, damnit. It's time these raucous smoke-pits had a little respect for the non-smoking, quiet-loving folks of town

impress upon their patrons to be quiet when outside smoking.
how long does it take to have a cigarette, 10 minutes?

10 minutes? Poof, you should easily be able to smoke one in 5, 3 in the cold!

Longer when combined with chatting to your mates and having a drink outside.

They hire bouncers who force smokers to "adapt", aka, smoke quietly or leave.

When there's 1 smoker in a pub - sure no problem. If 25% of your patrons smoke (slightly lower than the national average of adult smokers) and there are 200 people in your pub, then 50 of them will probably go out a minimum of 5 times a night.

That's 2500 minutes of overall smoking outside...

That'll be the next problem. I'm not sure about this but as far as I know you need a special licence if people are to be allowed to drink outside (with time restrictions) which most places don't have. So you probably won't be allowed to take your drink with you.

Great solution. So the owners of the pub have to take a pay cut of €50 a night because of this law.

I'd like to see how happy you'd be if the government changed a law all of a sudden and you ended up with a €1500 a month pay cut...

s'cool...they'll just need to ensure it's quiet minutes if the ciggy breaks are late ones.

Seems to me the best solution is to close down all the pubs and bars that are within 100 metres of a residential property. That way all the extremists would be happy. No smoke pollution and no noise pollution.

Which the extra bouncers will have to enforce like they do in the UK atm. Though, as I said, some let you take them outside.

In what world do you live in? How is your average corner pub supposed to finance bouncers?

but wouldn't they only need them on busy nights, say Friday & Saturday?

Your average pub won't have 200 people in it so probably won't need bouncers, a 'polite notice' would be enough. Anyway, their revenue will go up as all the non-smokers who've been sitting home waiting for this ban will now proudly march nightly into the bars to indulge their addiction.

New bouncers required? Bars providing jobs innit.

Dream on!

Oh I'll be going out now more for sure. In summer I'd go out maybe three times a week because we could sit outside, in winter down to once every couple weeks. But now, oh yeah, I'll be spending more money in restaurants. So many Thai places I haven't tried yet! And... TANTRIS here we come! And I'll be able to stand Master's Home long enough to try their food too!

I think that might be a bit of a dream, let's face it, non-smokers didn't hermit it up just because someone was fagging it down the pub