Bavaria's non-smoker protection law now passed

That's dumb...If you, as a bar owner felt that you would need extra security for protection, then you would already have bouncers working there. You wouldn't need to wait for a smoking ban. If you currently don't need bouncer, you will need them after 1 Jan. That's €50 a night you didn't have to pay before.


But you only have to fork out that €50 because of the law. no law, no €50 expense for the night.


Yeah, but then you have to pay for health insurance and Sozialversicherung and all those other expenses...Staff on the books cost more.

OK - seeing as €50 a night is so little money to you, I'll give you my bank details and you can give me a daily überweisung of €50.

Cheers.

..and you obviously don't think of your staff either.


Arguing with you is like herding cats. I'm out.

No it wasn't. It was a problem for a select bunch of well, sorry to say this but fascists who liked to prove their moral superiority over smokers, by pretending they were dieing each time they even saw a cigarette machine. You'll find most protest groups are full of them. In fact people like me who dont give a damm and believe in fellow human beings having the right do something naughty once in a while cos shit we're all dead anyway, are the very people who dont complain about stuff, we just try and get on with our lives and feed the kids.

More so to my shame.
Because today its the smokers.
Tomorrow it's the fat eaters, The day after it's the video game players, and the day after that it's something else.
And by the time it effects me with something I enjoy but just might theoreticly possibly harm someone, or god forbid might make their clothes small a bit, then who is left to protect and fight for me?

And yes society is changing, we're becoming intolerant ununderstanding and paranoid. We are also gethoising ourselves out of being a fully functional society because of that.

nah. The polls say that the Pro ban loby is bigger then the Anti ban loby... Also , only 18 voted against the ban out of a total of 166 possible votes. Maybe it the case if you were to poll the hardcore drinkers crowded around the immediate bar then the Anti smoker would be in the minority!

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Anyway, as i have said on another thread. This is all total speculation. No one has a clue how they will enforce it or how the noise issue will be dealt with. Do people really believe that they will close down all the bars because of noise...in Bavaria ... where beer is king...in a state which borders on Alcoholism. Sorry, but I can't help but be very sceptical

Also., one other point. We talk about democracy and capitalism and that bar keeper have a right to stay in business because the non smokers are being selfish... er really... Why are bars any different to an other business. Since when have they become a protected enterprise where legislation should only be made to encourage profit and anything to the contrary is victimisation. Why should bars be treated differently than any other business. When I was a licensee, running a bar & restaurant, we were almost put under because of the cost of implement a whole raft of new EU health and safety regulation which the UK enforce to the letter. Fishermen are affected by Quota's. Employees lose there jobs because of laws & restriction imposed by various EU quangos, which reduce profits, leading to job cuts to to keep the investors happy. Interest rate hikes which cripple small business with high debts etc All Harsh & unfair...but a part of life in this day an age. People have to continually change and adapt in todays society

& Before any one replies with the same old reply.."but you haven't answered the noise issue". Yes, I know it is badly thought out and I have stated before, that the are a number of viable workarounds, which unfortunately the politicians chose not to include in the legislation.

If it was such a problem and there was such a demand for non-smoking bars, then why did market forces not dictate that at least a few bars in Munich would be smoke-free of their own accord?

Surely if there actually was a market gap, someone would have exploited it and made lots and lots of money...right??

Probably because non-smokers will usually put up with a bit of smoke, whereas as smokers will be more vociferous if you try and stop them?

So what you're saying is that smoking in bars is not such a big deal to most people...

Exactly. I am really happy about this law. I have serious problems with smoke because of my allergy, but until now, short
of not going out, the only thing that I could do is put up with it and take anti-histamine pills before I go out.

I felt it was incredible how inconsiderate a lot of smokers are: Some time ago I was sitting in a rather nice restaurant with a friend at
a four-person table. Two guys come over and ask whether they can sit down on the empty seats. We say "Yeah, sure, but we just
ordered something to eat, we would appreciate it if you do not somke on this table." One of the guys says "That's great, I really do
not like cigarette smoke either." The guys sit down, and within 30 seconds (!), the other one goes "Since you don't have your
food yet, I am sure you don't mind ..." and before we can reply, he lights up ! How inconsiderate can you be ? We explicitely asked
them not to smoke when they wanted to share our table ...
I am very happy that I do not have to put up with these selfish people anymore. Don't get me wrong, I have some very good
friends that are smokers, but there are some (not among my friends, though) that are just assholes.

And as far as the Wiesn is concerned: The security guys manage quite nicely to tell off anybody who steps onto the tables (instead
of onto the benches) within seconds. I am sure they will be able to do the same thing with people trying to smoke.

Hazza,
or that non-smokers have been considerate as hell for a bloody long time and got nothing in return. My wife went out for a work's christmas do last night and there was only one smoker out of the lot, so do you think he refrained, or moved away when he wanted a fag? did he bollocks, despite the fact that my wife's also pregnant. So I say fine, ban it and if you want to blame someone (rather than the politicians) blame fuckwits like the guy last night who show no consideration / contempt for the wishes of those around him

Also amusing are the smokers who are considerate enough to hold their poison stick away from their group of friends, but in doing so hold it right next to the next group who also are also trying to enjoy a visit to the pub.

... and even more considerate when they turn their heads away from their friends to exhale...

Oh yes, roll on Jan 1st!

The Ban at the Oktoberfest Will hurt some of the people who go round the tents selling cigars and cigs, and to be real lets face it smoke is the least of the health hazards at the fest...liver failure...being pucked on...ending you night in a orange box being wheeled away...being ripped off by stupid taxi drivers...getting a maß glass hitting you on the head chucked by a mad Italian\Australian...the list is endless...inhaling smoke was never high on my list of bad things at the fest

Best news I've heard in a long time.

Maybe I'm being really simplistic here, but is a solution to all these supposed problems simply - don't smoke ? After all, it's not a necessity like breathing is it ? If you just didn't smoke you wouldn't need to go outside and make a noise. Would you now

@weevil
well bugger me, why didn't i think of that!

neither is having a beer at the Oktoberfest...but I gave up smoking a few years ago and have no plans to give up beer

You should tell the thousands of people that die each year from passive smoking that they are just whingers and oversensitive.


You seem to be missing the point here. Smoking kills other people. The above things do not. This is not the start of a slippery slope, the analogy does not work in this case.

I'm sorry, show me one person who died from second hand smoke. Roy Castle didn't. Never smoked a fag in his life, but died of lung cancer. Shit happens. What people forget is that there are a number of causes for all cancers. Christ, you can get cancer from banging your head. Not all cancer deaths are caused by smoking and you can bet your ass there was lung cancer before there was smoking. I know that smoking is the largest single cause of lung cancer, but it isn't the only one.

Don't laugh: there is already a thing called 'Second-hand Obesity'

There is that many studies out there that proves the risks of passive smoking, I'm not going to even start to argue the point here. Arguing such points with some "militant smokers" is like arguing that the American's didn't land on the moon with conspiracy nutcases.

In fact, I've argued about this smoking ban and smoking in public so many times on other threads I really don't want to get dragged into this at all anymore. The main thing is that the government has seen sense and from the 1st of January we (and most importantly, employee's in restaurants) won't have to smell toxic fumes from other people with a nasty habit. That is all that matters.

Gee, way to supply the facts there, Hutcho. I'm not suggesting for one second that second hand smoke is a positive health boon, but the comments about thousands dying every year is bollocks until proved otherwise, and I just know you're not referring to me as a 'militant smoker'

Well,errr, there is a good argument to suggest the moon landing was stage managed. So if keeping an open mind makes me a nutcase , so be it.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/228.html

Its the guy lurking behind the lunar module having a crafty fag that gives the game away!

Excuse me if I don't give a shit about the poor smokers having to go outside when it's a bit chilly! If it's cold they're less likely to stand around making lots of noise and annoying the neighbours.

Looks like Germany finally realizes the conflict between saving the planet on one hand and allowing people to pollute it with a cigarette in the other. It’s a great law.

Damn. We left Munich too soon. Now you'll be able to drink in a pub or restaurant without getting too smoky, AND you don't have to drive home.

SMOKING - done

What's it gonna be next?

Fat food? Alocohol?

Fat people should be banned from all restaurants, bars and public places. Their unnecessary high food consumption leads to a food-industry which contributes more to global warming than all cars and planes on this planet, and therefore endangers my life because of unavoidable allotment issues, which lead to mass migration, political instabilities, riots, revolutions and wars... the smell of fat and grease on my clothes when I go out makes me wanna puke everytime...

Don't even get me started on alcohol...

So if you are overwheight and wanna have a drink and a Schweinsbraten while I try to have a plain bio salad fom a local farm and a yogi-tea at my favourite pub I never go, I will feel myself forced to draw my Benelli M4 Super 90 and empty the magazine upon you in order to save me, my children and childrens-children and help make this place a better world worth living.

Germans. Especially ones with Benelli M4 Super 90s. Clearly detrimental to people's health. Ban 'em. 1st Jan is too late!

So, tonight I sat in a wonderful place for dinner, and the gentleman across the table from me excused himself to go smoke at the bistro tables at the front of the room. And I said, "Wow, are people smoking up there?" because no one could smell a thing, the ventilation was so good.

So I followed said person to the bistro tables, and he lit a ciggie, and soon there were three others lighting ciggies saying "wow, how cool we can smoke" and soon there were others joining us who otherwise wouldn't have gotten off of their butts at the tables.

And the whole time no one worried about the people who didn't smoke at the "smoker's table".

Guns don't kill people, ciggies do.

Can i please request that we create a ceasefire on fags v gags?

And yes, i know i have contributed to it, but ferchrissakes is this not getting a little same old, same old?

Tend to agree there considering the fact that there is bugger all we can do aboút it now. Smokers should have been more active ie. out on the streets, before this thing was passed, now we will be out on the streets .

Jack, the problem is that people relied on the Bavarian government ment to go for a sensible solution.
But the minute the anti smoking lobby realised there was going to be SOME movement they kept pushing for more severity.

Actually the increase in severity was inadvertantly triggered by someone trying to loosen the regulations.

I asked the owner of my Stammkneipe last night about the issue of people making noise when they go outside to smoke. He said that because he wasn't providing any seating or similar facilities outside, he was not responsible for what people do outside. If they make noise and the police come then that's the individuals' problem – he said it has nothing to do with him.

I really don't see how these two laws are at odds with each other. In the same way that people sometimes have to drive more slowly than they would like to, or park further away than they would like to, so smokers will have to learn to talk more quietly than they would like to. Being drunk doesn't automatically excuse you from being loud and obnoxious.

Selfish anti-smokers. Exacery.

Cars emit toxic fumes...what about those, they're certainly not a neccessity, especially not in cities.

My point exactly. Don't mind the smoking ban too much althought the way it is being brought in is a joke but next I'd like to see some of the pollution reduced by banning cars inside the Mittlerring (except for emergency vehicles, taxis, deliveries and other necesary vehicles). Stop the lazy fuckers driving to work/100 metres to the supermarket when it isn't necessary and polluting the streets and damaging the environment.

Another option is a congestion charge of 10€ a day. Either would suit me just fine.

what about ambulances/fire engines/police cars are they not a necessity? big delivery trucks? building site vehicles?
and taxis? and how should disabled people get around?
would public transport be able to cope if no one had a car?

I always thought Benelli made bikes! So they makes guns, too? Cool!

now, honestly, tell me how many of these people (who really needs their own motor vehicle) you see driving on the streets... 5% maybe?

Timmeh said that cars are not a necessity; I was just proving a point.

it's a frequent response of smokers to say 'well cars are also shit' so was just being pedantic.

there will always be a need for vehicles on the road...if there were no cars there'd be more buses/trams/trains etc. and that's just public transport.
and some people do need their cars...it's a fact. infirm or disabled people, doctors etc.

@ Wibble I like the idea of the congestion charge. I think there was also the idea of keeping LKWs off the Mittlerer Ring during peak hours; read that in the paper a few months ago.

You're talking utter bollox! Who cares how much you used to smoke? As regards 'pussies here who claim to be smokers'? What arrogance! What puerile bullshit... If it's too smokey for you you leave, do you? You pussy!

@Moonboot, I was meaning private vehicles. There is of course need for public transport and emergency services etc

yeah..I know...

I do not think this law will effect the gastronomy business in the long run. New things, ideas, laws take time to settle and be accepted. Too much hoo-ha now.
Champor has been a non-smoking dining since the begining of the year - and I must say that the business has not been affected -at all. Actually it has seen a rise. The non-smokers stay longer, the smokers come, appreciate the food and leave before 22:30 ( we allow smoking after the kitchen is closed.) So it evens out.
Other countries have done it - and it has worked. I do not see why this law should fail in such a developed and literate country like Germany.

It will be like all the hoo-ha about the Euro, no drink driving (imagine how that damaged drinking establishments business!!), wearing seat belts, taking morphine and cocaine out of patent medicines etc. People will adapt and life will move on...

The worst case knock on effect would be that due to noise, residents complaints can close a bar if there is enough of them.

That being said, I'm fairly happy about it. At least I'll be able to eat a meal without worrying about cigarette smoke, I can never understand why people smoke when they're eating. If I'm just going down to the pub or whatever, then I have no problems with people smoking.

He obviously has no idea of the law then.

Kilians don't hire 2 bouncers to stand on the door and ask people to be quiet when leaving as a community service...