I've exceeded my 90-day visitor visa for Germany

Okay, having ready all the rules and regulations about Visa's, I have a few questions.

My brother has lived here for 25 years, but is US citizen. When I arrived in September, I was under the erroneous impression that I could be here 90 days, had to go back to the states, which I did, and Then I could return. Upon my return, 17 days short of the first ninety, Customs at the airport asked me how long I was staying. "90 Days" I answered. He informed me of my reality, its 90 days every 6 months. I am working for my brother, under the table(for the moment) for what I had hoped was until April, and if we could work out a residency, much longer than that. However, I am now past my 90 days, and am not exactly clear about my options. I had planned on attending the Goethe Institute to strengthen my German, and the courses last for a year. I inquired about the visa situation with them, but they would only comment on the classes, I guess to be expected.

To compound the confusion, I have another brother that lives in Garmisch, working for the US. He has been here 20 years, and through people that he talked to, these are the rumors that I am hearing:

1) If I have family that is here permanently(My brother here has permanent status) I can get a 364 day visa.
2) If I have left Germany to travel, which I have, that time can be taken off my 90 days.
3) A student visa can be obtained, but only from the German Consulates in the States.
4)If I have exceeded my 90 days for any reason, I must leave immediately if discovered.

I have a place to live and income here, although I realize under the table will not satisfy the Germans. My Brother in Garmisch said I could get a part time job on the concern there, and just commute. That would give me an ID that would allow me to stay as long as I held the ID card. He said however, that any application through the US military there also is reviewed by the German gov., and if they see that I am here past 90, despite my travel outside to other countries in the EU, they will deny it.

I am starting to think I have absolutely no options, other than to return to the states.

Any assistance anyone could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Qozmiq

It might help a bit if you made the title to your question a bit more clear, you might get a bit more of a response
Just past 90 days, Am I screwed?
help

doesnt help much

I would think that you would not be able to apply for a residence visa if you are already here illegally, i.e., here over the 90 days you can be in Germany every six months without a visa. Go back to the US, and try to find a better, and completely legal, way to get here. Try to think longer-term than just a few months as part of that process, i.e., what do you want to do in Germany, work here, study here, or what? Good luck...

I don't think you have a good argument to present to the government for letting you stay. You have two brothers living in Germany, but neither is a citizen. You yourself can't tell the authorities that you are gainfully employed, because both you and your brother/employer are cheating by paying you under the table. Plus, you have already overstayed your 90-day limit.

Nope. Doesn't sound good to me.

Go home and try again in 6 months.

Edit: I don't mean to be rude, and I apologize if I am...I can only imagine how stressful your situation is and this doesn't help...but I cannot possibly understand why you did not know this before you came here. Your misunderstanding is insanely easy to avoid, all you have to do is read the english on the consulate website. If you had done your homework before you up and moved to a foreign country, you would not be in this situation (well, provided your papers got approved). I just don't get it.

Oh my goodness... did you bother to look into the law before you came ? apparently not. As a US Citizen you have the special privilege of coming to this country without a Visa and changing your status. This does not exist anywhere else to my knowledge. This is one area that I have to give these weird Germans many props.

When people start abusing this, they take it away - screwing lots of people who wouldn't otherwise abuse it. Shame on you.

I suggest you go back to the US, Via England. Take a bus as they don't stamp your passport upon exit. Many times they will not stamp your passport upon entrance into the next country. They didn't recently when I went between Denmark and Germany. They did however check it when I reentered Germany - but got no stamp. Take a flight from London or where ever you end up back to the US. They will give you an exit stamp in your passport.

Legally a US Citizen can be in the UK for 6 months without a Visa. I don't suggest you hang out and harbor yourself there back and forth. They will eject your butt faster than the Germans will, and they will deport you which could mean two things 1) They will ban you from returning to the country indefinitely or for a period of 5 years. Once you've been deported you will have a hell of a time even entering another country let alone getting a Visa. So get in and get out.

Once you re enter Germany again in 6 months. They are going to question why you do not have an exit stamp from Germany or a Schengen State. You will need to provide a very convincing account of where you have been, how you got there, and how you left. You will probably need to show them some proof of such events as well. I saw this happen to two guys the last time I left from Tegel. They can fine you and deport you if they don't believe you. So make sure you have your stuff together.

Then I suggest very strongly that you get a contract from your brother showing the hours you will work, and the rate you will be paid. I also suggest you don't tell them you were paid under the table, this is illegal in Germany as it is all over the rest of the world. Then when you arrive take your contract with you down to your local foreign office, or where ever they issue residence and work permits and you apply for the proper visa and work permit. If they decline you - try again, and again... and again... until you have you it. Your brother and any other relatives (alone or collectively can file a Verpflichtungserklärung (Official Affidavit of Support) to show they can help support you. You also need to have Health Insurance valid in Germany. Bank Statements of Money you have in the US are also a good idea to take along, and any diplomas or degrees you have.

Sorry to be a total B*** here, but I've worked my ass off on this wild goose chase these Germans have sent me on so I am within the law. And it absolutely busts my hiney that people like you aren't. If you really want to be here do it right otherwise you just screw it up for the rest of us.

Oh and one more tip for you, Germany is part of the Shengen States, which means that you can only be in the Schengen states for a period of 90 days. Not 90 days in each country.

P.S. I got my tourist Visa extended today for another 30 days, to make me legal here up to my wedding date. If I can do it so can you.

Three months in Germany, three months in America, three months in Germany, three months in America. And that is only since January 2004, so that's a pretty generous deal.

I mean, it sucked when I was coming to the end of my first 3 months without a staying permit, but it's better than being from a country that doesn't have this privilege...

And don't do stuff under the table - It doesn't just make other people deeply resent you, but it infuriates the German authorities when they find it out, and I can't imagine what they would do to punish that. Simple lifelong deportation probably... Shudder.

Its unlikely that it was "Customs" - more likely to be to be immigration officials (border police).

Thank you all for your replies. Some of them, unnecessarily terse. I simply was given wrong information, and yet I am 'ruining it for everyone else' Obviously, I was seeking answers here to rectify the problem, but moreover got lectures on how I conduct my business...ridiculous.

And a much more positive note than some Toytown users could muster, I went and took care of everything. The wait was very long, but if that is the worst part of the process I would do it over in a heartbeat. Thrice.

I simply gave them the documents they needed, and can now stay indefinitely. It was so easy. Ridiculously easy. I am not sure why so many cast such a dark shadow on the process.

Qozmiq

Congratulations! So does that mean that you are now free to stay here and not pay taxes and insurance and work for your brother? Wonderful.

So, not being mean here, just simple curiosity -- did you get a work permit as well or was the whole working (for the moment) illegally topic not something you brought up during your meeting concerning a new residence permit? I.e. have you got residency with unlimited work permit now or is working ability restricted?

I do agree that the actuality usually isn't that bad, but the occasional horror story does occur.

Lesson learnt then.

Rather than bitching about TT, why not raise the bar by posting in detail about how you sorted it?

While on this topic and to avoid opening a new thread, does anyone know how long a Canadian can stay in US as a visitor. The US authorities never specify such a date in my passport. Any idea on this?

Thanks

At the Einwohnermeldeamt ... or the Ausländerbehörde ?

Strange. For me to become legally employed I had to provide all sorts of documentation, and even after finally being approved I still only got a 1 year residency and work permit (1 year being the length of my initial contract). What did you actually say/provide (and to whom) in order to be allowed to stay "indefinitely"? I'd be interested to know...

All I had to provide was a copy of the lease where I am staying, and my brother wrote a letter assuring financial responsibility. They asked me if I planned on working, and I told them I was going to start my own business here. They asked my how long I wanted to stay, and granted me indefinate visa. It was that simple. It did not hurt, that when someone asked me for some odd reason, what I thought about the US government, I told them Bush was a murdering asshole. Maybe that's why it was so easy. And for the record, Toytown is a great site. I was not trashing it whatsoever. I have no reason to. Just a few users, have their hats on a bit too tight.

I am not saying the OP is not being truthful, but that sounds a bit too marvelous to be completely true. Anyway, I would avoid Schwarzarbeit if I were him, since it could zap both him and the brother that employs him.

When you say "unnecessarily terse", I presume you mean that some gave you the cold, honest truth and refused to pat you on the head, say "there there, it will all be alright" and complain about those nasty nasty people who should have bent over backwards to provide you with the necessary information on the visa status before you came here so that you would not have to use your own initiative and check things out yourself?

Yes. What nasty, horrible poo poo heads these people are...

You stayed here illegally, worked here (and presumably still are working here) illegally and all because you did not check things out before coming here? Honestly. The youth of today...

You have it completely wrong. You have absolutely missed the point. This side of this issue does need to perpetuated.

Surely you're not contesting this bit of what Crawlie is saying? That was my impression of your situation before you got things sorted out with the authorities.

I'm glad, for your sake, that you did somehow manage to convince the Germans not to throw you out, though I'm not surprised others are expressing a certain amount of incredulity at your luck.

You apparently didn´t explicitly apply for a permission to take up gainful employment in Germany ... and your indefinite visa nevertheless contains an expressed permission to that effect ?

Seems pretty crazy to me, too, miwild. Why wouldn't just anybody be able to get a residency permit based on an unsupported promise to start a business of an unspecific nature?

Face it! You have over stayed your allowed visa time, you will now be rounded up and kicked out of the country...
So start packing, the cops are on their way..

Yes, I am sure it was because you called your president a murdering asshole. It's clear that was why you were approved for an indefinite visa.

Sorry, it just does not work that way. Unless your brother has invested a minimum of 10 million Euros in his company, and provides work on a permanent basis for something like 10 German citizens, and has sworn legally to be fully responsible for your butt, you did not receive an indefinite visa.

People who come to Germany without gainful legal employment in advance and who have waited 3 months and 6 months, through terrifically hard meetings with reams and reams of virtually meaningless bureaucratic papers, and jumped through burning hoops, at best receive a visa the FIRST time for a period of the length of their German language course at best. If they are very lucky, they will find a company who wants to hire them, and who is willing to deal with the foreigner's office, to convince them, and the employment office that the person that they wish to hire has some kind of exceptional talent and ability that makes it impossible for a German to fill the position.

If they were lucky enough to fall in love and get married, they get their first unrestricted visa for a period of one year after the date of their marriage, but their marriage has to be registered, or legalised when they went back to their home country in sheer frustration at the requirements for non-EU nationals. Then, they get their union examined and if it's deemed that they are really a couple, they get their next visa for a period of 2 years. Then, they can apply for descretionary citizenship.

What I am in essence saying, is that I don't believe that you have received an indefinite visa. I think you are making up stories. I have read the law, in English AND in German. I speak both languages fluently. And what you suggest happened, is impossible according to German law.

And Germans who don't know you, don't appreciate you using that kind of language, even if it is to describe George Bush.

Not only is my hat on too tight, my dirndl is a little too tightly laced. And you know what? I like it that way.

So, please, do feel free to share the details of how this holy miracle happened. It's the Christmas season - I am willing to believe in holy miracles if they are at least backed up by something resembling logical fact.

If you received anything, it had to do strictly with your brother swearing that he would be financially responsible for you, and he needs to have a heck of a good business. Love to read that letter, minus names of course.

CA

I am not saying whether the OP is being truthful or not, but just a note on what CABH said...

Perhaps the law changed in the last few years, but when I (American) came here with my German husband (married in the States), I originally got a 3 year residency visa and work permit, and then after that expired, I got an unlimited residency and work permit. Which would be different from what CABH said above about 1 year, 2 years, etc. I did have to jump through a few hoops, but never needed to return to my home country.

If anything I have learned about dealing with the Beamters at the KVR, every time I went in there it was a different story and a different process. It took me 4 trips to the KVR to finally secure my initial visa, but for a friend of mine in the exact same situation and with even less documentation than I had, she walked out of the KVR on her first visit with an unlimited visa and work permit. So at times, it all seems a bit arbitrary and dependent on who you happen to see that particular day (and what kind of mood they are in.)

So although the OP's story seems exceedingly farfetched, I wouldn't say it is in the realm of impossibility.

:-) Well, your situation is really different. :-) You were already married to a German citizen before you came here. That puts you in an entirely different situation. That's awesome for you. :-)

OP is a single guy, without a legal job, who has exceeded his 90 days. The first thing my beampter would have done, is sent him to the airport. I don't know what the beamters are like in other towns, but if anyone used any swear word in her hearing, provided she understood what they said, the cops would be there so fast, you wouldn't know what happened. She deals with a lot of hostile sorts, and it took her at least 15 months to realise that I was steadily learning German, and not going to be like all the other crazy immigrants who go into her office and yell at her. :-)

It all hinges on his brother's letter, and how successful his brother's business is. But there is a law for that too with specific dollar amounts specified. I am refering to the current law, with changes as at January 2005. :-)

Based on the reported situation from OP, I think he's making the story up, because he's lonely and doesn't want to burn his bridges in this forum.

I on the other hand, am so integrated, nay assimilated, that I am losing my English. So it's nice to come and read what people have to say, and type a little bit. (okay, so I REALLY miss speaking English...) I don't speak ANY English at all, ever. I live in the former east in a little town, that was not on the list, and it's total German cultural and linguistic immersion here. :-) I have to say, for learning German, it's the best way to go. But if everyone ends up hating me here, meh, I'm in my local Carnivale Verein, the youth dance group, and have awesome German friends. I give an English course too - sowing seeds for the future. :-)

Visas are kind of my pet peeve area... That and people who won't learn German. :-) Worse if they sit behind me in the mandatory German course and speak Russian the entire time... all behind me now, literally. Course done, Zertifikat ready to be framed... :-)

Smiles,
CA

I am going through a horror story as of now...and it also makes me very disappointed and sad that there are people who think that they do not have to respect the host country's laws and still expect to be granted permission to live there. I will either get my residency or be refused, I will be joyful or disappointed, but I will not disrespect the laws of a country where I am a guest in...even if the decision is one that I disagree with.

There are plenty of other countries that I can spend my money in if Germany doesn't want me, although it would be nice to be here to get more fluent in German. To any of you folks who are thinking of illegally doing ANYTHING in any country, please consider that it would be an act of selfishness which will result in the hardship of honest folks and also increased future hardship for you as well. Don't shoot yourself in the foot...and our feet too : )

Viet

Welcome Member 20,001.

Seems to be contradictory that the OP claims he got an unlimited visa because he told the KVR that he was going to start a business, yet needed his brother to submit a letter saying that the brother would be financially responsible for the OP. How can you start a businesss if you have so little money that you cannot support yourself, which I believe is defined as 700 euros a month! Aren't there still minimum capital requirements for starting a business, and for those who are not citizens of an EU Member State who plan to start a business, doesn't a business plan have to be submitted for approval before the business can be created?

In the no longer available but delightful, "Handbuch fuer Deutschland", the amount mentioned for being a business starter was listed at 1 million Euros and 10 jobs created, as of May 2006.

This was the only thing I could find online today:
§ 21 Selbständige Tätigkeit
(1) Einem Ausländer kann eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis zur Ausübung einer selbständigen
Tätigkeit erteilt werden, wenn
1. ein übergeordnetes wirtschaftliches Interesse oder ein besonderes regionales
Bedürfnis besteht,
2. die Tätigkeit positive Auswirkungen auf die Wirtschaft erwarten lässt und
3. die Finanzierung der Umsetzung durch Eigenkapital oder durch eine Kreditzusage
gesichert ist.
Die Voraussetzungen des Satzes 1 Nr. 1 und 2 sind in der Regel gegeben, wenn mindestens
500.000 Euro investiert und fünf Arbeitsplätze geschaffen werden.

Im Übrigen
richtet sich die Beurteilung der Voraussetzungen nach Satz 1 insbesondere nach der
Tragfähigkeit der zu Grunde liegenden Geschäftsidee, den unternehmerischen Erfahrungen
des Ausländers, der Höhe des Kapitaleinsatzes, den Auswirkungen auf die Beschäftigungsund
Ausbildungssituation und dem Beitrag für Innovation und Forschung.

So, when the business is really a great idea that fulfils a regional need, and will have a beneficial effect on the region's economy it could be approved, providing that a minimum of five hundred thousand Euros was going to be invested, with proof of this capital in cash or an official loan, and 5 jobs created. Then, on an individual basis, this would be evaluated based on the enterpreneural experience and professional training of the applicant.

These proposals are very very carefully evaluated, and they certainly take a good long while to go through the process. It goes one in Germany to say that the visa is for 3 years. If the business is not successful after 3 years, the visa can be revoked, or the business is once again examined to see whether it is likely to be successful. If the applicant is 45 years or over, they must have proof of a secure retirement fund, or they will not be considered or renewed.

Not having had the requisite 500,000 Euros, I took a different route myself. :-( :-) Sorry for all the German. I loved the "Handbook for Germany" but it really seems to have disappeared from online. It was lovely. Thick as a brick, but lovely. I have it downloaded on my other computer, but not available at the moment. Anyways, something happened in August of 2007 that has to be updated, so that's probably why.

Smiles,
CA

I've been wondering where that went, too. It was kind of helpful, in a rather vague way. Not unlike TT, but at least the info was on better authority!

Where are you in Germany (We've been looking for you).
OK - if you're near a bordering country, go there and apply for a 90 day Visa. Get an address over the border and travel to work.

I believe that a person who is not a citizen of an EU Member State cannot have residency in one EU Member State and work in another.

And you wound be wrong... The Aufenhaultserlaubnis-EG thingy allows just such a thing.

DK, I made that statement with the OP in mind, and he isn't, AFAICS, eligible.