Munich city council and mayoral elections (2008)

You can check one list.

OR

You can check one list but prioritise candidates (boot or reject them) within that list

OR

You can check one list but prioritise candidates (boot or reject them) within that list AND individuals oother lists

OR

You can votes entirely for individuals.

It is quite complicated but democratic. Most people (57%) IIRC simply vote for one party list.

And if they decide to deport violent criminals after they serve their sentences in accordance with constitutional law and international agreements to solve the problem? Since you say it's Germany's problem, what do you suggest Germany do about it, and about neo-Nazi violent crime/criminals as well (for that matter all violent crime/criminals)? What do you think about restitution being made to victims of violent crimes?


Including state and national elections, and by residents do you include those in Germany illegally? From day one?


I have never heard of anyone being denied health care in Germany. Should those living in Germany illegally be required to pay for the cost of their care if they do not have insurance, or should taxpayers pay for any and all care they receive?


What about Iranian Jews, and others oppressed in Iran? One could rather easily make a case for the overwhelming majority of those resident in Iran being oppressed.

Conq. you said EU Citizens didn't complain about issues effecting non EU Citizens.
That was one of your classic digs against the people who have the audacity to have a different opinion to you and express it.
and of course, it was utter bullshit.
The list of issues and at your request, my brief personal opinion on those issues, proved it was bullshit.

They are all worth a thread or three in themselves and we have had them here before.
I'd like to stick here to the council elections in Munich themselves.

so Katrina dislikes the unemployed being allowed to vote? Preposterous.


well I do object to this actually but note that similar things are being done in all NATO countries, including the USA. In the UK, non-EU residents will have to get biometric ID cards and all EU people entering the USA will shortly have to be fingerprinted before entering.

Stick, wrong end of, there mate.

Well, the unions indicate otherwise with their public rhetoric. Or are you saying the unions are full of rubbish?
Would you advocate this if it meant wage cuts or smaller wage increases for company employees? A lot of people on the left in Germany act as if wages are of no significance and ignore the employer contributions to old-age pensions, health insurance, long-term care insurance, unemployment insurance, etc. Are you demanding that companies pay for more social spending on the unemployed, or for, say, the employee portion of the social charges as well as the employer portion? Exactly what social goods do you mean?
Exactly how so? They align the interests of the company and all of its employees and a good profit sharing plan would reward all for a successful annual performance.

I suspect a new US administration may scrap that ridiculous idea. Just because a number of countries are doing it doesn't mean it makes sense. I think the red carpet should be rolled out for business visitors, tourists, and students studying in the US.

Have you ever been a member of a trade union? If not, come back when you actually know more than what Fox News tells you about them

Again, I gave a brief couple of line answer to a specific question.
Don't really want to start a whole discussion on the issue of wages here, there have been and will be I'm sure other threads for that.

Right then, I've voted and I've voted and I've voted and I've voted until I've got writer's cramp. Next time I'll be voting for the party that makes the voting stalls wide enough for the big pink voting form. That took bloody ages. At least the wind should take down the remainder of those bloody awful eyesights along the roads now.

Actually, governments (even liberal ones) are VERY reluctant to relinquish power that has been accrued to them especially when, as is the case with fingerprinting dirty scroungers from Europe, it is not even remotely an electoral issue. i rather doubt therefore that the US will get rid of the need to fingerprint foreigners.

I don't know the pros and cons of the political paries , so I suppose I could vote equally for them, and just avoid the neon nasty parties. Thus not adding any bias to the political scene and reducing the power of the freaky parties. That would be one step up from a coin toss.

Transport
Housing
Social issues
City planning

are in the broadest sense the issues that are key to the elections in Munich today.

I think I'll have a bath and a shave though before I go to the polling station.

hehehe

I'm bloody glad my German colleague took me through how to vote the other day. otherwise I would have been bamboozled. Had lots of fun trying to fold up the ballot papers afterwards

Wow, BTC, that's really impressive! Feel free to disagree on interpretation of the facts rather than on innuendo. I doubt you are capable of that on the topic of unions. As for what I know, I would say my background in economics and working with union members gives me some knowledge at least as solid as that of a political activist.

By the way, polls close at 1800.

By 2000 they should announce who has won the OB vote, it will be the one with the YMCA moustache that is happilly married.

By 2300 they should announce the status of the council election, based on the votes that were cast for a single list only.
That is not the final result, but an indication. Those ballots cast with votes across party lists will be counted tomorrow.
Received wisdom says that it is the smaller parties who gain from those votes.

ooooh it's a popcorn moment!

Oh, and I forgot: privatisation is an issue in the election too:
SWM for power, water and transport etc and the hospitals, including ancillary services.

possibly, but you don't appear to be able to use that 'knowledge' when commenting on unions. I have been a member of two trade unions and was a member of a political party alligned with the trade Union Congress in the UK. Those trade unions are there to represent and protect the rights of their members. They only come into conflict with the management when those rights are threatened in some way.

There have been in the past, politically motivated trade unionists like Arthur Scargill or Bob Crow that see their union activism as part of a class struggle where ultimately they intend to bring down the establishment. But people like that are actually very few and far between and operate largely outside of the trade union movement.

I have seen nothing here in Germany to indicate that the union movement is any different here (although the legislative apparatus does differ)

I dont agree with this political system. I want to be able to pick the individual themes to vote for. Like more Transrapids and which ausländers to throw out. I was only joking about the ausländers bit.

That Ian, would be a move towards a more referenda based system like there is in Switzerland.
In small letter terms, the left and the green type people have pushed more toewards that in the last few years.

There are issues involved though and expanding the system is opposed by the more mainstream parties.

BTC, as you point out not all unions operate in the same manner, and I did not delve into the conduct of specific unions; however unions can and do have negative consequences for an entire economy (although not necessarily) both through their own actions and through their role in the political process. Since you are a former union member, it's not surprising that you are going to think positively of them- my perspective is a different one. As I understand it, German unions have historically been more benign than those in many other countries; however they are currently supporting policies of redistribution and making wage demands which are negative for the German economy and their own members. As for your comments on the "rights" of workers being threatened, can you be specific as to what rights are being "threatened" and in which manner? This could very well be a matter of opinion on which reasonable people can differ. You see them as an unalloyed good from your perspective; for several reasons based upon the laws of economics and empirical proof, I do not. This is as it currently stands, a normative v.s positive argument, so I don't expect to see eye-to-eye with you.

One more thing on profit sharing for workers- it would not cause the cost-push inflation that large wage increases are prone to do. Who is hurt more by inflation- managers or workers? Obviously the latter.

This is due to the fact that the post war concensus came to an earlier end in the UK compared to (West) Germany for example.
The premise is pretty much the same.

I'm off to an exhibition and then a vote. First time voter in Germany.

I'm just deciding what to wear to the polling station and the party later.

hmm. The traindrivers were expected to accept a wage freeze for years while the cost of living rose inexorably. They are now almost the worst paid traindrivers in Europe. Seen against that their wage demands are not at all unreasonable. And given that the pay freeze was deemed necessary for a deeply suspect privatisation I would say that the Unions are utterly correct to challenge it.


In the above example, the right to a fair wage for a day of work springs to mind.


I don't have an unalloyed good perspective as you imagine as my post above would demonstrate. Unions are vulnerable to being taken over by megalomaniacs who have agendas that run contrary to the interests of their members (viz. Scargill and Crow). But when a Union works and does what it is supposed to do then I have no problem with them at all. Surely industrial disputes are best worked out where management have a single body to negotiate with to achieve agreement?


I have absolutely no argument with that and neither do most trade unions as far as I can see.

well, unions have a more regulated position in the operation of companies in Germany. This means that management and unions have had a historical tendency to seek consensus meaning that Germany had far fewer strikes. It is only NOW when the government (forced by the IMF and other bodies) starts selling off the family silver in privatisations that are not in the interest of the public or employees that strikes have become the norm - and for good reason too.

Indeed BtC, workers representatives are now moving away from the corporate love in with the employers a la VW and a good thing too.
Pertaining to the elections today, its interesting that MVG employers are basicly in conflict with a council that at least until led 1800 today has an SPD-Green majority.

Off to vote now once I can get my hair looking right.

Shouldn't it be looking left?

My, but you are a card MT, aren't you?
Read -Read - Read

I dunno why I got dolled up for. More middle class young families than potential shags.
When you can't even cruise the polling stations in 80469 Munich, something is wrong in the world.

Wow. I've never seen a ballot paper so big as that pink one for the city council. 1180 names!!!

MT, It's like the dog licking his own bollix - simply because he can!

I am not familiar enough with the DB privatization to comment on it, but if they had gotten a 31% pay raise, imagine what that would have done to DB's cost structure and its attendant effects on everyone in Germany. I can't give you a figure as to what the appropriate pay raise would be, but it is really what both sides agree to. Are the train conducters the most poorly paid in Europe relative to cost of living? Is there some other explanation other than parsimoniousness?

When you say a "right to a fair wage for a day of work" what do mean? That is something that should be decided by the market, and if a negative income tax is deemed necessary, that should be implemented. How do you or any other indivdual know what that fair wage is? You don't, but the market is the collective sum of everyone's opinion.

As far as representation for workers goes, lots of workers get along just fine without being represented by labor unions (see the Japanese and German transplant factories in the US, for example). I understand it is part of the system here, but that doesn't mean that the unions' pay demands and policy proposals are in the entire country's best interests.

Then kindly respect the status quo and show some civilised respect for your host country.
I cannot, for the life of me, undersdtand ungrateful guests.

Garibaldi, I fail to see how engaging in debate on public policy in a country of one's citizenship is a matter of being an "ungrateful guest". Presumably you will remonstrate MT and other non-Germans who are going to complain about an aspect of public policy here? What about other German citizens who criticize one or more aspects of German public policy, e.g., those who criticized tax cuts enacted by previous Red/Green governments at the federal level?

31% in one whack does seem a lot. But they have had their pay frozen for 5 years. 31% over 5 years is slightly over 5% per year which is more reasonable. My own pay rises in a private company hve been in excess of that over the last 5 years.


When cost of living and inflation are taken into account a pay freeze is in effect a pay cut. And when that "pay cut" is in effect to fund the privatisation and make a mint for the institutional shareholders who take ownership of the company most normal people would see there being something unjust in that equation.


first, a truly free market would drive the wages of traindrivers down to almost nothing since they in themselves do not create wealth. Especially when presumably what you believe to be 'free' about such a market would be that trade unions would be banned and workers rights curtailed. It would only be a 'free' market for the bosses and shareholders and considerably less 'free' for ordinary workers.


It depends what the industry is. In the company I work for, we do not have unions, since it is a consultancy where all of us share in the management and the profits from the business. I negotiate my own salary annually and a trade union would be a hindrance to that.

However, when I worked for a global publishing company where wage increases and terms and conditions of work were decided in smoke filled rooms in another country, all employees were members of MSF so that the union could represent us in pay negotiations. Likewise when I was an academic, pay scales were set by government for every academic in the country. I was a member of AUT because they represented my interests in negotiations with the government.

absolutely

Guests are entitled to an opinion. Also, to whom exactly are we meant to be grateful?

guests who come and carp at everything European being substandard compared to the uber-wonderful heimland go done like a lead balloon here.

BTC, your own pay raises (and congratulations, BTW) are completely irrelevant to those of workers in another industry. 5% pay raises for each of the past 5 years? Did their productivity rise that much? 5% annually would have been considerably higher than inflation, so what is the justification for that figure? BTW, normally privatization opens up new sources of capital from which workers can benefit. Private sector employment generally pays more than that in the public sector? What about job guarantees, do the conductors have them? Were such guarantees part of the contract with DB?


The workers voluntarily agreed to that, didn't they? That effect you lament allows companies, industries, and economies to adjust. Was the conductors' pay considered low, high, or average 5 years ago? I don't know enough about the DB privatization and any negotiations to comment on them specifically, but there is no guarantee that shareholders would profit- perhaps the government would be the big beneficiary. We don't know since it depends on future events that cannot be predicted with certainty. The chances of shareholders profiting increase if the company is operated well as a private concern, but given DB's history, that is far from assured.


Train conductor salaries would not in a free market go down to zero. I have no idea where you get that from. Not only would no one be willing do the job for free (or for a minimal salary) not everyone can do the job nor can you simply replace them on a regular basis with untrained replacements. The fact that the conductors are doing the work for the salaries indicates an adequate supply at that wage level- or they wouldn't do it.

Workers' rights aren't guaranteed by the presence of unions- they are by national and state laws and by work contracts. Ask the workers at US transplant factories of BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, etc.

Incidentally, unless you assume that the railroad industry is a natural monopoly, a free market in that industry would attract capital and create more jobs, i.e., a higher demand for conductors, thus raising salaries and job opportunities.


I see why you agree with me on the benefits of profit sharing.

Funny thing, it seems that the greatest complaints about Germany often seem to come from UK citizens. Most American TTers seem to be rather positive about Germany.

If someone brings in their own informed opinions that happen to be different to yours, I hardly see that as carping against everthing European.

Conquistador, you do not do "engaging in debate on public policy" you do "Conquistador's lectures on how things ought to be in an extreme, right wing world".
... and you provide hours of entertainment - for which we are all very grateful. This forum, as you probably know, is renowned for taking the piss out of
those tending towards bloated histrionics. Thanks for continuing to provide fun even though you may not be aware of it yourself. Thing is... I suspect that
you do not want to be taken seriously. Aren't I right? (your style)

Listening to BR2 now, sounds like Ude stormed it. Greens got 13.5% in Munich. I guess Emma might have assisted a bit. I think I just caught the Wurzburg turnout at pisspoorpercent.

31% would take them up to the average wage for traindrivers in Europe. That is how the figure was arrived at. I split it down by five years to show you that as a wage demand it was not as unreasonable as the 31% figure made it look.


the train drivers did indeed acquiesce on this originally. But there has been a complete lack of goodwill on the DB management side. Hence the reakdown that led to the strike.


It was slightly lower than the EU average then. Now it is a lot lower.


I do feel it is a natural monopoly and also that it is a piece of the nations essential infrastructure - particularly in the future when car and air travel will need to be curtailed for environmental reasons and due to fuel costs and shortages. It is hard to imagine how one could introduce the necessary competition to ensure that costs were driven down in the consumers interests. The attaempts to introduce competition by having multiple operators that tender for periods on different lines lead to utter chaos and, in the case of the UK, the worst service and highest prices in the whole of Europe.

Germany has a fucking brilliant rail network that seems to have been managed well by the state for 50 years. Germany needs to start cherishing the DB and valuing its employees before the whole thing is lost forever. I cannot see how DB could be 'improved' by privatisation but a heck of a lot of ways it could be ruined by the same. if it aint broke don't fix it.

67%

whahey, Ude rocks!

The privatisation of British Rail. Hands up all those who think it was a good idea.

Quick! Fetch the straight jackets.

well precisely