Hi TT members!
This is my first time to post here. I have been reading posts and really learned a lot. One thing i am not sure though... if i posted in the right location for this concern.
How can we or you determine if someone is a native english speaker? What are the criteria? Does this description refer solely to Americans and British and those who were born in places where their mother tongue is English?
How about those who have obtained english speaking certifications? Moreover, how about those who have dealt with US consumers and businesses as CSR (Customer Service Representative) outsourced by US companies in handling their businesses, how are they called?
Is there such a thing as naturalised native english speakers?
Thanks for reading.
-rojen-
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The meaning of "native English-speaking"
When do you qualify as a native speaker?
As far as I know someone who has grown up speaking english is a native speaker. People who have a high level of english from study, work or living overseas would still not be native speakers, but be called fluent or native level speakers.
You have a point, cabbagefairy. It seems here that only native english speakers have the best chance to get employment offers here then. As i see in the posts, ''Native English Speakers'' are the most of the time... no ''Native english level speakers''...
(^=^)
(^=^)
QUOTE (rojen @ Dec 6 2007, 10:20 pm) 
You have a point, cabbagefairy. It seems here that only native english speakers have the best chance to get employment here then. As i see in the posts, ''Ntive English Speakers'' are the most of the time... no 'Native enlish level speakers''...
Methinks you have just about hit the nail on the headlette.
BTW, i have found that there is a miscellaneous section in the forum. This topic should have been posted there. I don't know how to transfer this though.
You can't, only a mod can move threads.
QUOTE (garibaldi @ Dec 6 2007, 10:25 pm)
Methinks you have just about hit the nail on the headlette.
.. And it's not too good for my future...
It's all right. You'll do just grand.
QUOTE (cabbagefairy @ Dec 6 2007, 10:33 pm)
You can't, only a mod can move threads.
Thanks again... I'm still learning. Doesn't even know how to quote properly yet...
QUOTE (garibaldi @ Dec 6 2007, 10:39 pm)
It's all right. You'll do just grand.
...
.. big hopes here... also needs much luck! Whew!
Took me a year to figure out how that darn quote button worked! Click on where it says quote on the posts you want to quote (the buttons turn red) then click add reply ( not fast reply!!!) and it will have them all there ready to go for you
Yes! Haha! Thanks alot cabbagefairy.. Now it shall not take me a year to figure this quoting thing out. Mille grazie.
Now it shall not take me a year to figure this quoting thing out. Mille grazie.
QUOTE (cabbagefairy @ Dec 6 2007, 7:24 pm)
As far as I know someone who has grown up speaking english is a native speaker. People who have a high level of english from study, work or living overseas would still not be native speakers, but be called fluent or native level speakers.
This, dearest cabbagefairy, is the essence of modern racism, projected onto the realm of language. I can't even begin to describe the piles, shelves and libraries of books written on this exact view as expressing the essence of modern racism. I know you meant good and you would probably think you are the farthest removed from racist a person can ever be, but just think for a second what you're saying here - the Ausländer, he will never be like a real native. Even if he speaks the language perfectly (indeed, in early 20th century continental philosophy, because he can speak it perfectly), he will never be the same, always different, always the outsider.
Language is about talking, reading, writing and generally communicating. It has nothing to do with the place a person was born into (please don't get me started on this. Just to catch a glimpse - what if he was adopted 93 days after he was born? 94? 194? 195?)
I invoke, with your permission, the Turing test. Not about intelligence and not involving a machine and a human, but rather about language, the ability thereof and between what you call a "native speaker" (PC version of "one of ours") and a "non-native speaker" ("one of them"). I think, if you can't tell the difference between the two and guess correctly which one is one of yours and which one of theirs, there is no difference in their linguistic capabilities. Only in their race.
So your distinction between native and native level is bogus and not about language.
And you, Genie, are a native speaker of gobbledygook.
Where in Cabbagefairy's post is there a reference to a place of birth? You simply did not understand her post.
This is simply not a philosophical matter but a neurological one so whatever these books, I am not even sure you have read, say is not relevant.
This topic has been discussed here before and too many people, like yourself, are misguided by the feeling that it is not fair that once you have passed a relatively young age it is impossible to become a native speaker of a language. The world is not fair.
The last point in your post actually does make sense, but as a matter of fact you can tell the difference between a native speaker and a non-native speaker so I really don't know why you think that supports the rubbish you have written above.
Where in Cabbagefairy's post is there a reference to a place of birth? You simply did not understand her post.
This is simply not a philosophical matter but a neurological one so whatever these books, I am not even sure you have read, say is not relevant.
This topic has been discussed here before and too many people, like yourself, are misguided by the feeling that it is not fair that once you have passed a relatively young age it is impossible to become a native speaker of a language. The world is not fair.
The last point in your post actually does make sense, but as a matter of fact you can tell the difference between a native speaker and a non-native speaker so I really don't know why you think that supports the rubbish you have written above.
QUOTE (Genie @ Dec 6 2007, 11:53 pm)
I know you meant good and you would probably think you are the farthest removed from racist a person can ever be, but just think for a second what you're saying here - the Ausländer, he will never be like a real native. Even if he speaks the language perfectly (indeed, in early 20th century continental philosophy, because he can speak it perfectly), he will never be the same, always different, always the outsider.
...
.. I hope the employers take notice of these.. giving chances to those who are as good as the native speakers. After all it will be mostly business dealings or a professional environment... a place with a common language for everyone.
QUOTE (LeChamois @ Dec 7 2007, 1:36 am)
And you, Genie, are a native speaker of gobbledygook.
Where in Cabbagefairy's post is there a reference to a place of birth? You simply did not understand her post.
This is simply not a philosophical matter but a neurological one so whatever these books, I am not even sure you have read, say is not relevant.
This topic has been discussed here before and too many people, like yourself, are misguided by the feeling that it is not fair that once you have passed a relatively young age it is impossible to become a native speaker of a language. The world is not fair.
The last point in your post actually does make sense, but as a matter of fact you can tell the difference between a native speaker and a non-native speaker so I really don't know why you think that supports the rubbish you have written above.
Where in Cabbagefairy's post is there a reference to a place of birth? You simply did not understand her post.
This is simply not a philosophical matter but a neurological one so whatever these books, I am not even sure you have read, say is not relevant.
This topic has been discussed here before and too many people, like yourself, are misguided by the feeling that it is not fair that once you have passed a relatively young age it is impossible to become a native speaker of a language. The world is not fair.
The last point in your post actually does make sense, but as a matter of fact you can tell the difference between a native speaker and a non-native speaker so I really don't know why you think that supports the rubbish you have written above.
I have a long day in front of me today so I can't bring up the examples I have in mind that support the "rubbish" written above, but please do remind me and I will supply you with a few mp3 recordings where you will not be able to tell the difference between people that were raised in the US and people who emigrated there when they were older than a "relatively young age" (whatever that means).
QUOTE (LeChamois @ Dec 7 2007, 1:36 am)
Where in Cabbagefairy's post is there a reference to a place of birth?
Implied in the word native. Do look up its meaning.
QUOTE (LeChamois @ Dec 7 2007, 1:36 am)
This topic has been discussed here before and too many people, like yourself, are misguided by the feeling that it is not fair that once you have passed a relatively young age...
See, if you take out the "relatively young" part, I agree with you (I especially like that you think I think there's a fair and unfair in these things. Very lovely indeed). I'm aware of developmental windows, I just think that these windows are different for different individuals and do not entail inability to learn things, they just make the learning process longer.
Who ever said it was fair to be called that? Sure their english might be grand, but that is how we get classed. And what's the big deal about being called a native or having the level of a native? It's practically the same thing but means you learnt it when you were older.
QUOTE (rojen @ Dec 6 2007, 10:20 pm)
You have a point, cabbagefairy. It seems here that only native english speakers have the best chance to get employment offers here then. As i see in the posts, ''Native English Speakers'' are the most of the time... no ''Native english level speakers''...
"English" aint the main criteria to get a job...The skills pertaining to a particular job is the requirement to get a job..! Lots of English speaking guys work here in Germany..does that mean they all knew German before?...Its the type of job and skills that determine the recruitment-factor..But indeed, language skills are the basic factor and multiple language skills are always helpful, especially in this generation..!
QUOTE (cabbagefairy @ Dec 6 2007, 7:24 pm)
As far as I know someone who has grown up speaking english is a native speaker. People who have a high level of english from study, work or living overseas would still not be native speakers, but be called fluent or native level speakers.
I know of many folks, who aint native speakers, but can play with English...and i've seen some who can outwit and play around with native speakers and give them a blonde moment..!
English is essential for a job, not native english ...and...English is essential to be on TT, not native english..!
Yeah I agree with cf, and LeChamois said it right that it is a neurological matter. I don't remember exactly by what age a child has to start learning a language to be qualified a native speaker but it is fairly early (in the first five years of life), as later children learn languages differently. Edit: I just looked it up on Wikipedia (de) and it says it has to be learned before the start of puberty, after puberty starts usually no other language can take the place of your native language.
Of course whether you are a native speaker has nothing to do with the place you were born but is (usually) the language your parents spoke (if they speak two different languages, it is one of them, or sometimes both if they raise you bilingually). The child of two Americans born in Germany is more likely going to be a native speaker of English but can also be a native speaker of German if it grows up in Germany.
And Genie, if you think native implies the place of birth, I suggest you look it up. Actually I will just quote it here:
From dictionary.com
Of course whether you are a native speaker has nothing to do with the place you were born but is (usually) the language your parents spoke (if they speak two different languages, it is one of them, or sometimes both if they raise you bilingually). The child of two Americans born in Germany is more likely going to be a native speaker of English but can also be a native speaker of German if it grows up in Germany.
And Genie, if you think native implies the place of birth, I suggest you look it up. Actually I will just quote it here:
QUOTE
na·tive /ˈneɪtɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ney-tiv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. being the place or environment in which a person was born or a thing came into being: one's native land.
2. belonging to a person by birth or to a thing by nature; inherent: native ability; native grace.
3. belonging by birth to a people regarded as indigenous to a certain place, esp. a preliterate people: Native guides accompanied the expedition through the rain forest.
4. of indigenous origin, growth, or production: native pottery.
5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the indigenous inhabitants of a place or country: native customs; native dress.
6. born in a particular place or country: a native New Yorker.
7. of or pertaining to a language acquired by a person before or to the exclusion of any other language: Her native language is Greek.
8. pertaining to or characteristic of a person using his or her native language: a native speaker of English; native command of a language.
9. under the rule of natives: a native government.
10. occupied by natives: the native quarter of Algiers.
11. remaining or growing in a natural state; unadorned or unchanged: the native beauty of a desert island.
12. forming the source or origin of a person or thing: He returned to his native Kansas.
13. originating naturally in a particular country or region, as animals or plants.
14. found in nature rather than produced artificially, as a mineral substance: the difference between native and industrial diamonds.
15. Chemistry, Mineralogy. (of metals) occurring in nature pure or uncombined: native copper.
16. belonging to a person as a birthright: to deprive a person of his native rights.
17. Computers.
a. designed for use with a specific type of computer: writing native applications for 32-bit PCs.
b. internal to a specific application program: to view the file in its native format.
18. Archaic. closely related, as by birth.
–noun
19. one of the people indigenous to a place or country, esp. as distinguished from strangers, foreigners, colonizers, etc.: the natives of Chile.
20. a person born in a particular place or country: a native of Ohio.
21. an organism indigenous to a particular region.
22. British. an oyster reared in British waters, esp. in an artificial bed.
23. Astrology. a person born under a particular planet.
—Idiom
24. go native, Informal. to adopt or affect the manners or way of life of a place or environment that is different from one's own, esp. a less developed country: After living on the island for a year, we went native and began to wear the local costume.
–adjective
1. being the place or environment in which a person was born or a thing came into being: one's native land.
2. belonging to a person by birth or to a thing by nature; inherent: native ability; native grace.
3. belonging by birth to a people regarded as indigenous to a certain place, esp. a preliterate people: Native guides accompanied the expedition through the rain forest.
4. of indigenous origin, growth, or production: native pottery.
5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the indigenous inhabitants of a place or country: native customs; native dress.
6. born in a particular place or country: a native New Yorker.
7. of or pertaining to a language acquired by a person before or to the exclusion of any other language: Her native language is Greek.
8. pertaining to or characteristic of a person using his or her native language: a native speaker of English; native command of a language.
9. under the rule of natives: a native government.
10. occupied by natives: the native quarter of Algiers.
11. remaining or growing in a natural state; unadorned or unchanged: the native beauty of a desert island.
12. forming the source or origin of a person or thing: He returned to his native Kansas.
13. originating naturally in a particular country or region, as animals or plants.
14. found in nature rather than produced artificially, as a mineral substance: the difference between native and industrial diamonds.
15. Chemistry, Mineralogy. (of metals) occurring in nature pure or uncombined: native copper.
16. belonging to a person as a birthright: to deprive a person of his native rights.
17. Computers.
a. designed for use with a specific type of computer: writing native applications for 32-bit PCs.
b. internal to a specific application program: to view the file in its native format.
18. Archaic. closely related, as by birth.
–noun
19. one of the people indigenous to a place or country, esp. as distinguished from strangers, foreigners, colonizers, etc.: the natives of Chile.
20. a person born in a particular place or country: a native of Ohio.
21. an organism indigenous to a particular region.
22. British. an oyster reared in British waters, esp. in an artificial bed.
23. Astrology. a person born under a particular planet.
—Idiom
24. go native, Informal. to adopt or affect the manners or way of life of a place or environment that is different from one's own, esp. a less developed country: After living on the island for a year, we went native and began to wear the local costume.
From dictionary.com
So how about a kid born in germany who starts with learning both english(at home) and german(at kindergarten) simultaneously?
No native language for this child ?
No native language for this child ?
dino, did you not read past the first paragraph of my post? I mentioned exactly that case in my post.
QUOTE (Mariposa @ Dec 7 2007, 2:01 pm)
The child of two Americans born in Germany is more likely going to be a native speaker of English but can also be a native speaker of German if it grows up in Germany.
I am asking how will he/she be considered if he/she speaks both well?
Both a native English speaker AND a native german speaker ?
Both a native English speaker AND a native german speaker ?
Yes, that is called being raised bilingually (or multilingually).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_langua...multilinguality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_langua...multilinguality
QUOTE
One can have two or more native languages, thus being a native bilingual or indeed multilingual. The order in which these languages are learned is not necessarily the order of proficiency. For instance, a French-speaking couple might have a daughter who learned French first, then English; but if she grew up in the United States, she is likely to become more proficient in English.
QUOTE (fRe4k @ Dec 7 2007, 11:36 am)
English is essential for a job, not native english ...and...English is essential to be on TT, not native english..!
...
GOTCHA!!!
QUOTE (Mariposa @ Dec 7 2007, 8:16 am)
Yes, that is called being raised bilingually (or multilingually).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_langua...multilinguality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_langua...multilinguality
Mariposa is mostly right. It is technically called simultaneous bilingualism (2L1) or bilingual first langauge acquisition (BFLA). This would be opposed to the child who learned English only until the age of three, went to Kita and learned German. This type of bilingualism is called successive bilingualism. Most researchers in the field of SLA and bilingualism (although not all) consider the cut off age for for 2L1 to be under 3.
As for the debate about native and nonnative I find it just plain silly. Native langauge simply means the langauge one has been taught from birth (or to get technical under the age of 3). It does not mean all native speakers speak perfectly, nor does it all nonnative speakers have major language flaws. No does it mean one is a raging racist for the use of the word.
Thats MamaE for explaining it in a more detailed way (and for correcting the cut-off age) ... And I very much agree with your second paragraph. I do not necessarily see it as a loss for myself not to be a native speaker of English, as very few jobs require you to actually be a native speaker.
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