Oh, the cyclists here in Germany

What is it about folks here who, whilst are law abiding in their cars, become aggressive law flouters bombing around on their cycles? How many times have I tried to cross the road when the crossing light says green to be nearly hit by someone going through the red light on their bike?? Don't they know that pushbikes can kill pedestrians too or don't they care?? They seem to think they're invincible when they get into the saddle!

Common enough male problem, I believe.

And lights! What are they? Less than 50% put them on in Munich at dusk/dark.

Ian yes, i forgot to mention that! Same problem in FF! Don't cyclists get prosecuted in the same way as motorists here?? And many of the women sail through traffic lights too..serves them right if they get killed.

Just quoting to document your attitude unless you're ever in an accident with a cyclist and they wonder who's at fault.

Obviously you've seen different drivers to me - speed limits, no-overtaking, stopping distances, 2 working headlights, 2 working brakelights, sobriety, consideration for other road users, not stopping in cycle lanes, etc., all seem to be optional round these parts.

And don't even get me started on the pedestrians and dog-walkers who blindly walk in anything other than a straight line and through the clearly marked out cycle path. Quite apart from the cyclists who seem incapable of keeping their bike moving in a straight line. And then the law says you should risk your life by trying to avoid all that lot on the cycle path (and the cars pulling out of side-roads, and the uncleared ice and snow in the winter). No thanks, I'll take my chances with the lorries - at least they generally have working lights.

I'll agree with you about the lack of lights and reflective clothing though - although pedestrians on country roads with no footpath would also be well-advised to not wear all-black, otherwise they might get a bike (or a bus) in their back at some point.

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No because the police can't see them due to lack of lights and reflecting clothing.
It's true, most cyclists are absolute anarchists and believe that motorized traffic has to watch out for them, a courtesy they do not extend to pedestrians themselves. Learn to live with it, watch yourself and your own behavior when on a bicycle, and wear a helmet! You cannot change other peoples' behavior, only protect yourself either driving or biking.
One of my co-workers (the non-German one) wears a helmet and a reflecting vest on her bike, the other one (German) has at least taken down a reminding note to buy a helmet.

Don't worry Gen, today seems to be removal day.

It's this unfortunate right-of-way syndrome...

I find it much better here in Munich than in other cities that I've lived in.

Here there at least paths for the cyclists to stay on, and the cyclists obey some of the rules.

No bicycles should be allowed on any bundestrasse outside of towns. Period. I'm sick and tired of some Lance Armstrong wanna-be crawling up a hill, slower than snail shit, in the middle of morning rush-hour, taking up half the lane and making it near impossible to pass them. And this same asshat is riding on the street when there's a perfectly good (and unused) bike path right next to them.

Swerving in and out of traffic, cutting off cars, making left hand turns from the right shoulder without signaling or even looking.

When one gets splattered across the pavement, I won't lose any sleep.

How about a swap: no motorised vehicles should be allowed on any street once you go past the Ortseingang?


Iif you've ever tried riding at any speed on a bike path then you'd realise why many cyclists don't use them - they're generally designed for Oma and the Enkelkinder to have a Sunday tootle along (and even for that are usually poorly designed). Even when there is no-one else using them, the uneven surfaces, pointless curves, side-roads, etc., mean that you're in more danger of having an accident on many bike paths than you are cycling in heavy traffic on a Bundesstraße.

Cycling on the pavement (sidewalk) and expecting pedestrians to get out of their bloody way... let them take their chances on the road where, as a wheeled vehicle, they surely belong! Cycling is, of course, environmentally friendly and healthy but here in German most cyclists are a menace and yes italoinglesina, they most certainly are a law unto themselves!

I agree that cyclists should stick to the road, but those that use the pavement aren't doing so to annoy people – it's because they lack the road skills and/or confidence to cycle on the road. This is most likely a result of their childhood: robotically crossing the road only when the little green man says it's OK, thus depriving them of the road awareness that kids in other countries get as a result of thinking for themselves.

There's a junction near me where you have to cross a 4-lane road, which might seem dangerous at first glance, but considering you have a dedicated green light it's actually as safe as houses. Yet around half the cyclists go onto the pavement at this point because the idea of crossing a busy road with the traffic is too much for them.

I'm with maekelborger on his road-swap idea. To me, a cyclist on a Bundesstrasse is no more or less out of place than a car in the middle of a town. And how often do you actually get stuck behind a cyclist and for how long? I doubt you lose more than about five minutes of your life each year trying to overtake cyclists, a length of time that fades into insignificance compared to the amount of time sat in traffic jams caused by people too lazy to go by bike in the first place.

The cyclists remind me of the squirrels from back home.

Always scurrying around in traffic, causing accidents...

I refuse to ride my bike at dusk or during heavy traffic times, because taxi drivers really do not respect bikers, and go out of their way to scare the living crap out of them. Regular drivers are no problem, everybody respects everybody else, and knows what they have to deal with and how to get out of one another's way. But cab drivers make mowing down cyclists a sport, and they think its just soooo funny. I've had many a close call with those jerks.

You guys all have it wrong, it's not that all pedestrians, all cyclists or all drivers are idiots, it's that everyone (including you) is an idiot.

Please tell me you (as a pedestrian) have never blindly stepped onto a cycle path without realising it.
Please tell me you (as a cyclist) have never forgotten your lights.
Please tell me you (as a driver) have never gone above the speed limit.

Jeez, the most dangerous person is the one that thinks that they are never wrong.

Please tell me you (as a pedestrian) have never blindly stepped onto a cycle path without realising it. Guilty
Please tell me you (as a cyclist) have never forgotten your lights. Not Guilty
Please tell me you (as a driver) have never gone above the speed limit. Guilty

This has touched on one of my main rants, as both a car driver and a cyclist (a very leisurly one), I can't say I have ever forgotten my bike lights as they always remain on my bike, but the batteries have died on me, but then I either walk the bike or stop & wait for cars to pass, but I do have reflectors on my bike and my back pack and my cycle clip thingies, it seems to me that a good majority of cyclists both young and old that ride around here are wearing dark clothing and no reflectors, lights or anything & certainly not helmets, what the hell are the parents of the kids thinking! They also like to go the wrong way down one way streets & expect the car to move or wait, the only reason I haven't yet hit a cyclist is due to sheer luck.

I'll admit to stepping in the damn bikepaths marked along the fronts of several bahnhofs when I first came to Germany. I obviously need more of a visual than simply lines spraypainted on the walkway... It used to drive my daughter nuts, she was constantly pulling me out of the way. I mean, aren't we all human here?

Haha. I knew there had to be at least one pedant who would totally miss the point (not necessarily a bad thing, my boyfriend is one too but like you he sometimes has a hard time seeing the forest for the trees).

Let me rephrase just for you leky: Please tell me you have never, even once, even when you were first learning to ride a bike done something stupid or something you later regretted or something you realised in retrospect could have been dangerous. Perhaps it was an accident, perhaps it was just not thinking, perhaps it was on purpose but tell me honestly leky, have you really never done anything on your bike that could have turned out badly?

Yep, I have done loads of things on my bike that were extremely stupid and very dangerous, but that was when I was younger, when I was the age some of these kids around here are I wasn't allowed to ride my bike at night or on main roads. I do understand the teens and early twenties thinking they're invincible, but what about the 30 & 40+ group, they should know better, I certainly do now. And the parents shouldn't be allowing their bloody kids out on bikes without lights, reflectors and a helmet.

The OP was being pompous about cyclists whilst implying that drivers and pedestrians are always law-abiding innocent victims.

This thread is therefore fair game for any cyclists wanting to point out the irrationality of this and how drivers and pedestrians put cyclists and (particularly in the case of pedestrians) themselves at risk. The fact that many cyclists (hand up, myself included) also put themselves and others at risk was already pointed out.

Don't try bringing logic and reason into it!

To be honest, from cycling every day to work observation, I think the majority of cyclists in Frankfurt are quite disciplined. Helmets are not very common, though; I personally would not ride without one.

It's a matter of perspective as well: while cycling I see a lot of cars parked on cycle lanes, or sometimes even double parked, but that does not mean that most car drivers here in Frankfurt do not respect the law.
Or, when cycling in mixed pedestrian/cycle lanes, I often see pedestrians walking four or five abreast, or wobbling left and right, but that does not mean that most pedestrians are unrespectful of other path users.

Dogs are the worst... their owners walk on one side of the cycle path, and the dog walks on the other...with the leash stretched across the middle, where you're trying to cycle...

As a dog owner I have NEVER done that and have seen it maybe once or twice.

I have a huge problem in my neighborhood with cyclists who cycle, full speed, down the pedestrian only paths at night, usually without lights. Because my dog is small, I really don’t think she would survive the hit.

I really don’t mind sharing the pavement/sidewalk with cyclists. I realize that it’s part of living in a city. However, I would ask that they slow the fuck down. If you want to go full speed in the countryside, go for it. But if you’re in the city, have a bit of courtesy.

I spent 4 years in berlin and am both a walker and cyclist. To be fair, which ever one I am, the other group are insane :-)

As a walker I have seen cyclists nearly total people, knock them into the road and just expect the walker to know there is a bike behind them.

As a cyclist I have seen mother drag their kids into the cycle lane when they have spotted a gap in the traffic, people just walking into the cycle lane even though its a different colour and a car just parking there nearly causing 3 bikes to collide with it.

The only thing you can do is look out for yourself and hope you do not get hit or do not hit anyone. Not that seems to bother the more insane bike riders.

Last week while riding on a marked cycle lane a pedestrian ran out in front of me without looking. I avoided a collision with him but when my bike not without crashing. Result: 6 stitches in my face, bruising, etc. Bike was hurt too.

Many cycle paths in Germany cities are poorly designed and put cyclists at risk. It is often safer for cyclists to ride amongst the cars, positioned where they can be seen. Too many accidents occur where cycle paths and pedestrians mix, where cycle paths terminate at intersections or roundabouts (drivers often don't look for continuing cyclists and frequently misjudge cyclist's speed) or swing between sidewalks (where pedestrians seem to walk with their eyes closed) and road edges. Sometimes when I cycle on the road drivers have to slow down and/or overtake me carefully. Often they have a crack at killing me because they are impatient and have the kind of aggression behind the wheel that is inflamed by slower and more vulnerable vehicles. This all may not excuse cyclists from running red lights, but it is perhaps an explanation for why they don't show much respect for the road rules that do little to protect their safety.

Amazingly, cars and pedestrians coexist reasonably safely in cities but only because roads and traffic controls have been developed appropriately and rules have been communicated clearly, i.e. during driving lessons, via signs etc. They trouble between cyclists and pedestrians and between cyclists and cars is simply because provision for cyclists on the roads is ad hoc and often completely stupid and because at no time to drivers, cyclists AND pedestrians receive enough clear information about rules and safe practice.

Cyclists are potential killers:

Well, it takes the dog owner's stupidity as well.

I commute to work by bicycle winter and summer, get around town mostly by bike otherwise. I would rather take my chances in traffic than drive on any so-called bike path in Germany. The way people wander onto the bike lane, you have to inch along at a waking pace just to avoid knocking them over. If you ride fast enough in traffic and are aware of what's around you, you'll be safe. In 10 years of this I have been warned once by the cops to stick to the bike path.

I'm continually alarmed by the speed at which some cyclists ride on the pavement (sidewalk), whether in a 'cycle lane' or not - should be outlawed immediately in my view. The whole concept of 'cycle lanes' which are combined with the pavement is insane imo. Of course pedestrians - often the elderly - will wander into them. The fact that they're marked by different coloured paving stones or by lines is irrelevant - sidewalk and cycle lanes do not mix! Cycling should be confined to separate cycle lanes, where available, or otherwise to the road, as in the UK.

Oh for fuck's sake. Get this cyclists might have just as much time pressure as motorists. You can have important business people on bikes who prefer to cycle rather than drive for health/environment reasons. Saying cyclists should only cycle at a walking pace assumes they're all unemployed or students and have all the time in the world.

Bullshit, they have as much right and need as car drivers to get where they're going fast.

Can I take it you don't agree with me then? Oh well, never mind

EDIT: I agree with you about the health/environment issue and with your comment regarding car drivers. Neither of these points relate to the thrust of my post. I'm also a regular cyclist myself.

You're alarmed at the speed at which cyclists cycle on cycle paths. My only possible interpertation of that is that cyclists shouldn't go fast, if they're in a hurry they should drive a car like a civilised person.

Hi again M-a-M... I understand your point and I guess my comments were too generalised. In many places, near bus-stops or pedestrian crossings for example, walkers can't avoid crossing the cycle lanes and in the confusion of a busy sidewalk sometimes don't notice a cyclist approaching at what often is, by any measure of sense, far too high a speed - I have personally witnessed several nasty collisions in similar locations. Ultimately I suppose it comes down to appropriate speed for a given situation... this is all I really want to say.

I get what you are saying, it's like defensive driving; imagining everybody else on the road is a nutter. I guess the same idea could be extended to riding a bike, predicting ahead, you don't know when someone might just wonder onto the cycle path without looking. I see a lot of people take the cycle lane for granted on a bike, like bombing across junctions assuming all cars are going to see them and stop and then they nearly get taken out! You never know what other people are going to do life, so sometimes best to ease off and be expectant.

'appropriate speed for the situation' - agree
i am sensible cyclists who speeds when no one is on the road and the weather conditions are good.
i am against more restrictions. if people (drivers, cyclists and pedestrians) followed the present rules, then there wouldn't be any discussion at all.

I need a bike bell that works in the rain -- mine just goes a tiny plink plink and is not much use klingeling the people off the bike path. Anyone have any recommendations? I've asked and been told that air horns are illegal on bikes, that would have been my noise of choice...

I usually scream at them. Gets their attention and out of my way.

I'm not sure whether it's a Berlin thing or Federal law, but in Berlin at least there's no requirement to use the Fahrradwege any more - except if they're explicitly marked as such with a round blue traffic sign. Which is much to my preference because most of the on-pavement cycle paths are a massive source of conflict for everyone involved.

(And as a cyclist in Berlin, over the past few years I've come to the conclusion that the worst element in traffic are "other" cyclists. Not everyone of course - mainly the "fair weather" cyclists, who fortunately disappear from the streets once it becomes a little chilly).

I'm constantly amazed by the number of cyclists who are unable to interpret what's going on around them and convert that knowledge into appropriate action. Even simple things such as slowing down to let people off a bus or a tram; or seeing a whacking big truck which is turning right and coming to the conclusion that - even if one technically has right of way - in a truck-vs-bicycle face-off , the bicycle will always lose.

AND YOU IDIOTS WHO RIDE YOUR BIKES CLOSE TO THE BUILDING SIDE OF THE PAVEMENT: ONE DAY IT WON'T BE ME COMING OUT OF THE DOOR EXPECTING YOU TO COME OUT OF NOWHERE; IT WILL BE AN OLD LADY OR A LITTLE CHILD YOU WILL HAVE ON YOUR CONSCIENCE.

To be fair this isn't just a problem of cyclists alone. Many times I've seen the same things and (let's throw a generalisation in for some fun) I've heard said before that Germans exist in their own bubble and are unaware of everything that happens outside it and this appears to explain the phenomena.

Any wheeled thing on a street or road should follow the laws of the road. If there's a sign that says no passing, then no fucking passing. Mopeds, motorcycles, and bicycles that hug the center line to get past traffic at red lights or in congested traffic should wait just like every other vehicle in traffic. Bicycles that use the road when it suits them and then jump up on the sidewalk to get around cars stopped in traffic and back out in the road again should wait just like every other vehicle in traffic. A red light is a red light. It means "STOP" regardless if you're in a car, truck, or on a bike of any kind.

Someone (I really can't be bothered to go back and look who) replied about how bike paths are all crap. Horseshit. Brand new, paved and smooth, bike paths are left unused by these "tour de france" wanna-be fags that think they own the road. On a 5km stretch of road between 2 towns with a perfectly good bike path that both towns spent thousands of Euros to build, they won't use it. No. Instead, they will ride 3 wide having a nice chit-chat along this 2 lane road and block any vehicles behind them.

I've seen bicycles speed through red lights and nearly hit pedestrians or get hit by vehicles. I've seen bicycles cut off strassenbahns. I've seen them riding on the right side of a solid white line on the shoulder of a road (where the speed limit is 70-100 kph) and, without looking, veer into the main traffic lane to make a left turn. They've caused accidents with cars and injured pedestrians.

Any bicycle rider that does not follow the rules of the road and/or ignores traffic signs, lights, or right of ways, is a selfish asshole that deserves whatever mutilation comes to them. I shed no tears, nor lose any sleep, over some ignorant biker that gets killed or suffers injury because of their behavior. Maybe, just maybe, as more of them are put in the ground, more will understand that we all have to share the road and to act with respect and consideration for the rest of us. I haven't seen a battle between a 80kg person on a 10kg bicycle and a 2000kg+ vehicle where the bicycle has won yet.

Cycling has been my main mode of transportation in Canada for the last 13 years, so when I came to Germany (this is my second stay) I was kind of looking forward to not being the "cycling oddball" like I am at home. But man, just because so many people here cycle doesn't mean they know what they're doing...

My particular favorite behaviour is the "jump start". I'll be waiting for the light to change and some student will come doodling up behind me, pull ahead of me and stop. And then when the light changes they are busy trying to get their feet on the pedals and their bike moving off in some huge gear. But I've already managed to pop my feet into the toeclips (I had them specially installed) and zoom out in front of them in a low gear, and I'm halfway down the block before they cross the street. Now that multi-gear bikes have made it to the general public, perhaps someone should teach these people how to shift gears.

Yes, most of the cyclists are terrible. But generally they get away with it because the motorists are WAY more attentive than they are in Canada, for example. I can't believe that most motorists will actually notice you riding parallel to them and wait to see if you're going to ride across the intersection on the bike path. And when you're riding on the road, they mostly wait for a safe point to pass you. A typical German cyclist would last about 10 minutes in Canadian traffic.

And don't get me started about bike path design. I think that's the field they put the engineers who failed out of everything else.

This man didn't last.


A rough translation: A 69 year old cyclist died while crossing the road (B475) on Friday. He ignored the red light and was crossing the road when a 44 year old car driver (a lady) couldn't avoid him and hit the pensioner who died on the spot. The driver was slightly injured.

Bane of my life too. Especially the ones who stop after the lights (bonus points if they can block the pedestrian crossing) and wait for the pedestrian lights to go green... while not seeming to be aware that the special bike lights actually change before all the others, so by the time they've realized they can go, I've circled round them and cleared the crossing (and I don't even have toeclips).

The old fart is dead because he was stupid. Now this 44 year old woman has to live the rest of her life because she ran over the old fucker. On top of all the psycho bullshit she will have to deal with, she also has minor injuries AND a banged up car that she has to get fixed and go through the hassle of dealing with the insurance company to pay for it.

He's dead, she's fucked. Fair? Hardly. But I'm sure HE had somewhere really important that he had to be to run that red light. Asshole.

Nothing like passing judgement with only the flimsiest of evidence! Maybe the woman driver was doing her make-up at the time, or chatting with a friend on the phone. Unless you know what you're talking about, it's probably best to keep quiet.

Oh give it a rest. She could have had her head in the glove box for all I care. She was in the right (green light), he ran the red light.

Maybe she was not paying due care and attention, driving too fast, and should have slowed down in anticipation?

From the quote it's impossible to say. Probably the guy made a misjudgement, but to call him an asshole for crossing a pedestrian crossing at red and getting killed is a little harsh.