Validity of oral contracts for subletting a flat

if you are subletting a room in a flat, and have verbally agreed the dates you will leave, is it the case an oral discussion is just as good as written, esp if you have a witness?

could back up with a few emails, but they are a bit messy.

thanks for infos.

If you are the subletter and there is no written contract signed then you can pretty much do what you please. THe Landlord really does not have a leg to stand on

its not the landlord, its the girl who im renting the room off whose name is on the contract. she is away for a while hence me here, but wants to come back, EARLY.

im going to tell her to get lost, just curious to know if i can get away with that.

How disinterested are the witnesses? And do they really remember the dates agreed on, or are they under anyone's suggestive powers? An oral contract has the same binding effect as a written one but can be tricky to prove.

witness is one of my best friends and who isnt a fan of the girl in question. def remember the dates. 100%.

dates are prob in email somewhere, but would rather not rely on that.

on a totally different note, and digs going?

what has the girl said?
a) i want to come back early, ie admitting that she's changed the terms you agreed on
or b) im coming back as per the date we agreed DIDNT WE. ie tough.

Id say check your emails just incase your mistaken!! then tell her your sticking to the original plan and maybe offer to book her into a nearby hostel as a goodwill gesture?!

i agree about the binding nature, but i read/heard somewhere that German law isnt too keen on oral contracts? Would this be something that someone would actually try to seek a remedy for- sorry cant remember if you said but if she's not allowed to subcontract she's on shaky ground legally anyway.

we agreed on my leaving date. there is no mistake or confusion when it is, she wants to move back cos she has split up with her boyfriend and moving out of there...

so, in effect, admitting she is changing it.

2 weeks before i'm due to finish my dissertation, the words "fuck" and "off" arent too harsh given the circumstances i reckon.

i have no idea if she is or isnt allowed to sublet. but im 100% not mistaken in the dates we AGREED on.

and no, unless you want to pay for me, i wont be doing anything good will. she should be doing something good will for me!

she is talking about moving back 3 weeks before i planned to move out.

Re the hostel, i wasnt suggesting that you paid... god forbid, no.

Given you're doing a dissertation and have enough stress on your plate, and that she's trying to mess you about in order to make her own life easier, tell her no way, its not your problem. Or a simple "fuck off". Whichever pleases you better!

http://www.verkehrsthek.de/showdocument.ph...mp;referrer=447


What is the duration of your sub-lease? Limited but more than one year? Then the whole lease is invalid. C'mon, get off your hiney and wade through the e-mails, this is an important issue and needs documenting. Paper is more convincing than a Hibernian using strong language towards a lady.

LOL.

No, a mere 3 months. thats good right, if i undestand that correctly? cheers for that.

Hibernian... haha!

the fact i have to meet her on friday night, with other flatmate, is filling me with dread. im crap in these situations. tips?

(apart from manning the hell up)

having said all this, i think the only written stuff i have in ac, is the good flatmate asking me when i wanted to stay till, then coming back to me and saying that was fine. no acceptance in writing. negotiations were thru flatmate.

I was trying very hard to avoid the term "Jock".

@ SarahByrd: sorry my german just isnt up to this, ive looked at the link and im not seeing anything that specifies that this also relates to subletting- im getting a general feel that its talking about a "standard" (ok no such thing, i know, but) tenancy agreement with owner/agent and tenant, and not an agreement with tenant letting to tenant. ???
Im willing to accept ive totally missed something in translation though.

Maybe you could come to some sort of arrangement about sharing (is she good looking?)

Not worth the paper it's written on so to speak. That's my experience of verbal contracts, even with a witness. I've lived and learnt with that old chestnut.

@ Tibia: It says any lease (nota bene: for living space, not commercial) can be either oral or in writing. I did an extensive search for sub-leases valid in writing only, no results.

well i have one of the 2 keys.

what can she do exactly?

thanks for doing the search sara

@UNick. No... like your thinking though.

Blatant bump, but could probably do with all the help I can get. I am hopeless in these situations.

My current plan is to highlight importance of the month for me in relation to my uni stuff, that we had agreed on this verbally and have emails to back it up, that it would be easier for everyone if she stayed somewhere for 3 weeks to save me moving twice in effect and as its her mess she should be the one put out, that a week's notice isn't acceptable.

I will be nice and civil and appeal to her better side, but if that fails I will just say "this conversation is over" and walk away.

Thoughts? Lame to ask, but I am. Great thing is I'm not meant to know about this, but for the other flatmate who is on my side as it were telling me. Chat is tmrw night.

Move into the Staabi? I believe that's the done thing when writing a dissertation anyway...

I think you have to do your block with people here sometimes because they shelve “reasonable� pretty quickly in favour of “convenience� unless you show you are (emotionaly) serious in holding your ground. My worry would be coming home and finding her stuff in your room, that she has moved back in because you just walked away from the discussion ie admitted defeat. But that would also be the best time to solve the problem because you would be more likely to lose your temper. If that happened I would just shout at her and throw her stuff out of the flat and tell her you’ll see her in two weeks or whatever. Nothing over the top, but I think you’ll see a change of expression in her face as she grasps the situation. Maybe she can move back in with mum or something.

@Schotte,

Sounds like the last thing you really need right now. I hope it goes well tomorrow night and also that you manage to get your dissertation done without too much additional stress.

Good luck
sc

Have you paid rent up until the date that you were supposed to leave?

thanks guys, I'll be sure to update when it happens.

No, only up till end of November.

to reiterate, I have her keys so the only way she could get in would be breaking in which is obviously quite unlikely.

plus i have her tv, dvd player, stereo and various other bits in the room... hmm. now whats going thru my mind i wonder.

perhaps she is just going to discuss the possibility of her moving back in rather than plan to 'throw' you out kind of thing...your flatmate might be worrying you too much unnecessarily. Just tell her tomorrow that you're really sorry for her situation and understand, but as much as you'd love to help her you can't because you have nowhere else to go and are in the middle of your diss. She might be fine about it and already have a back up plan!? Who knows...no point in fretting like mad before you even 'know' about it, cross that bridge tomorrow, when you come to it. She'd have to be pretty awful to just throw you out and she must know that she can't do that...

my main worry is she is the sort of dumb bitch who will just stand there and say "its my room though" and tug at the heart strings for various personal reasons - there are a few.

not meaning to be a complete bastard, but it isnt my concern and its difficult to think of what to say given her self pity ways other than "sorry, it would be a big inconvenience for me at this time."

but yes, tmrw is another day...

if you see a tv, dvd player and stereo for sale on here tmrw evening you know whats happened

I did wonder, how long will it be before she starts crying?
I just have a feel she might try and guilt trip you. If she starts crying, look at her like you know shes manipulative, and dont back down.
Good luck

Just as an FYI - emails don't stand up in court in Germany. I only just learned this from legal training at my job. I hope it works out Schotte!

thanks for that dcgirl, good to know. good to have all this stuff before i speak to her.

i think crying might well be on the cards - she seems that way inclined.

then cry too... 2 can play that game.

Of course she will try to get it back if you would agree. She's in a crap situation, but she must be (to some extent) reckoning with the fact that you might say no and can't be persuaded otherwise. You don't have to be mean, but sadly you just can't help her. It's crap but that's the way it is and stay firm! Don't feel guilty about it either.

I feel for you, I hate those types of talks and generally much rather prefer to stick my head in the sand and hope it goes away by itself, but normally the expectation of it is far worse than it ever actually turns out to be.

Good luck!

You sound like you know what to do. Would you mind coming down here for the weekend and dealing with it for me? Please...

If I was a bit closer to Munich and not flying to London tomorrow night I would!

But you don't need anyone to do it for you anyway, you know what to do and you'll be fine!! She is a grown woman, you are not responsible for her, she made her choices and some of them turned out bad, woohoo, who's hasn't. She'll live.

Idiot has just phoned crying her eyes out cos she just split up with the bf.

therefore cancelling tonight.

wants to come tomorrow.

FFS.

she made her choices and some of them turned out bad, woohoo, who's hasn't.


right on

So, did you speak to her yesterday? What happened?

i have no idea if she tried to make contact as i was out drinking lots. flatmate has not told me anything yet about it or any news.

not sure what this means. but in that its this saturday is 1st dec and when she wants to move back in from last i heard, i def dont think its unreasonable to tell her where to go if she gets in touch now.

Can she not squeeze in beside you for a few weeks? It'll half your rent and maybe provide a bit of relief from your dessertation...

flatmate just asked if i could meet tonight at 8pm. 2hrs from now. i said no.

she has now text to ask if i can meet in the flat tmrw at 8pm.

just me that thinks thats fucking rude? i mean the notion of meeting tonight. at such short notice. given i did wait here on friday night and she announced ten mins before planned time that she couldnt come.

shes female right?

yes. tempted to laugh but im just worrying again

That girl should meet up with my evil/former roomie.

you can always try to crash at other people's places since it's just a month and only you. (i'd recommend coming to Milwaukee, since we have an open room, but i don't think you can finish your project from this distance).

im totally lost
what does this mean someone please?

"du ueberweisst mir bis zum 1. 300 euro. Wenn bis Sa das Geld nicht da ist musst du ausziehen!"

It means "You will transfer 300 Euro to my account by the first [of the month]. If the money hasn't arrived by Saturday, you have to move out!"

Hope you didn't have plans for the weekend.

cheers mate

No problem. I just went back and read through what your whole thread here was about.

Man, that is so screwed up. I really hope you get something worked out with the crazy skirt.

seems to be sorted, i think. well, for the time being!

i replied with "ill make sure you have the money by the 1st."

she replied "okay"

assume that she is acknowledging i am staying as originally agreed

fingers crossed.