Charity stall at Mauer Park flea market

On the last Sunday of every month, myself and some fellow Mauer Park stall-holders give our takings for the day to charity.

The kind of things we look to sell varies from week to week but typical fare includes retro DDR furniture amongst other things! Without wishing to blow our own trumpet, our stalls are very popular with natives and ex-pats alike, but please come and visit for yourself! The stalls that will be donating their proceeds will all carrie a banner with " Die Nicolai Kirchgruppe" written across it.

This month we'll be donating towards the International Coalition for Life Saving Cures, an organisation that works towards the crucial fight against stem-cell research.

am i reading that wrong... "fight against stem cell research" shouldn't it be funding stem cell research or some such thing?

I'm with stubbs on this one.

I'm pretty sure MargaretYates meant the fight FOR stem cell research.

For instance the Missouri Coalition for Life Saving Cures was formed to campaign for stem-cell research that is allowed by the US Federal Government to be carried out in Missouri. I'm such a geek.

Humm.. I'd hope it's "for" stem cell research too -

considering that my grandfather died from parkinson's disease - and the only treatments/cures available now are from stem cell research...

i'm a big advocate FOR it.

~Rose

Hmmm... maybe someone can get to the bottom of it on this website:

http://www.mauerpark.info/

It's in the local dialect.

I think maybe MY meant "against" stem cell research it's run by " Die Nicolai Kirchgruppe" not a full bottle on the subject but I think church groups have ethical problems with the use of human foetuses for the research.

If that is the case I shall not be going as I am a strong believer in the need for stem-cell research.

MargaretYates, can you please clarify.

I find it hard to believe that an organisation APPOSED to the scientific development of cures call themselves International Coalition FOR Life Saving Cures. It would be simply devious.

I can indeed confirm that the International Coalition for Life Saving Cures fight AGAINST stem cell research. Like I said we're all doing this voluntarily so please- if you can find the time- come and support the event.

Margaret

Yeah, I WILL NOT be going. Stem cell research is what helped my grandfather to be less affected by Parkinson's.

Catholic I may be, but I don't always agree with what the church says.

I would hope we can change your mind, since stem cells don't always involve abortion - they can be harvested from umbilical cords after birth.

~Rose

Yes, umbilical cords are very good sources of cord blood stem cells, however embryonic stem cells are NOT collected from aborted foetuses but from excess embryos created for invitro fertilisation.

The pro-life movement argues that human embryos should be protected and ideological opponents believe that this research will lead to human cloning.

This type of thinking reminds me of Galileo Galilei, who was incarcerated by the Catholic Church for stating that the earth revolved around the sun.

That's a pretty ridiculous comparison. One is a conclusion based on scientific observation and the other is a subjective moral judgement. The only similarity is that in both cases you disagree with a position taken by the Catholic church.

Firstly, I want to make it clear that I do not attack the Catholic Church- I do not believe that the Catholic Church is interchangeable with pro-life movement or the "ideological opponents" that I mentioned- although they are obvious supporters.

Secondly, whereas I accept that the comparison I have made may seem “ridiculous� to us- now that the principles of the solar system have been proven over and over- my grounds for disagreement are the same for these two principles.

Was the Church’s view against Galileo not a subjective moral judgement, at the time? What other basis would they have had for discourse?

Both are evidence of an ideological leadership suppressing scientific progress that interferes with their belief system.

The difference is that in the case of stem cell research, even if it results in great benefit to the well being of the human race, the Right Wing Conservatives will still be able to argue that the spiritual, religious or ideological costs are too severe- based only on their own subjective moral judgement.

Surely you must see the difference between "These scientific conclusions are incorrect because they are at odds with our beliefs" and "This application of science is inappropriate because it is at odds with our beliefs". The first statement is objective and falsifiable; the second is inherently neither true nor false.

phew...!! take it neither of you are going to the market then? and yes i do agree with Marc the name of the organisation is rather misleading.

That'd be a nope. ;-) We're all gonna go to Dim Sum and continue the discussion over chinese on Sunday. Care to join!?!

I agree with you there. Actually, I'm a little confused, since googling "International Coalition for Life Saving Cures" doesn't reveal any such organization, and the several "X Coalition for Life Saving Cures" listings I find seem to be pro-stem-cell-research groups. I was assuming the rationalization for the misleading name was that they worked to support umbilical and adult stem-cell research as alternatives to embryonic stem cell research.

Wow. Can you please describe your stall and it's location so I can avoid it like the plague? I would feel terrible if I inadvertently supported this "charity".

Yeah, I see you're right.

The problem is that whenever you throw "beliefs" into the equation, nothing is objective or falsifiable. That's why it's so difficult to have a debate these people - they already know the answer and nothing we can do or say will change that.

Does anybody else get a weird feeling from this situation? Even after the posts indicated an overwhelmingly pro stem cell research stance, MY chimes in and confirms her anti stem cell research stance but then still encourages us all to support her because it's a volunteer effort. Is she not understanding that the viewpoint that she is supporting is offensive to most of us? Is she that brazen, or is this still just a misunderstanding?

Don't get me wrong, I feel that all viewpoints should be welcome here. What makes me uncomfortable is when a group is deliberately vague about their viewpoints just to get more support at their fund raising efforts. I'm willing to bet that this group's viewpoints will be, at best, unclear to those passing by the booth on Sunday.

Agreed. I think that perhaps there's a dual method - misleading/open to mis-interpretation of name and/or

she was hoping that those who do support the cause (which is possible - I mean there are alot of people on the boards) would come out despite the "overwhelming" majority who are vocal at present on the subject.

And you have to admit, we are pretty vocal.

Just remember, money talks - not always the lips making the breeze.

Message to Jedi..

I can´t use PM at the moment, apparently the site needs to have more postings from me to know I´m not a spammer, so if you see this message please email me??
See you soon, and apologies for using this board for off topic, but I didn´t note your handy number yesterday :-((

Steve

Yeah, I'm with Ronk on this one - why doesn't MY realize that after all the pro-stem cell research folk voiced their complaints, her second post was a little off the mark? I think that they should post on their stalls, in several different languages, the reason for the fundraising, so that people can decide if they really want to give their money to that cause. Otherwise, unsuspecting shoppers might accidentally support this awful cause. That way, too, the fundraisers will have to talk face to face with people who are for stem-cell research, instead of just suffering the wrath of a message board. If the people shopping are anything like the people here, it'll make for a long and frustrating day - which I think is totally called for.

Perhaps MY does realize, only felt the need to clarify the mission of the charity which she was asking support for - since we had asked for clarification.

In addition, if the above is the case, kudos to her for not letting it degenerate into a political issue - but rather for staying positive and giving others (not vocal) the opportunity to make a choice and support or not.

~Rose

It's a shame that some of you on here have the views you have but you're entitled to them nonetheless- and besides it is God you have to answer to ultimately, not myself.

For those with an open mind, and a conscious, you are still more than welcome to visit our stalls and air any questions you might have. Look forward to seeing some of you.

God bless,

Margaret

Hi Everyone,

As is always the case at the end of every month, the Nicholai Kirchgruppe will be holding a stall at the Mauer Park fleamarket selling all kinds of regalia from Billy Graham audio cassettes to genuine DDR furniture! The event is popular with locals and ex-pats alike, and what's more all proceeds will be donated to a charitable cause.

The chosen charity this month is Precious Life, on which more information can be found here- www.preciouslife.net.

God bless,
Margaret

From the site:



So, my question is (being a catholic) if the catholic church opposes birth control, and abortion, fine. The church also recommends abstinence. Fine.
In the real world, with an increasing population, sex happening (despite the recommended abstenance), and people getting unwanted pregnant - not being able to support the child and/or the family...

What's your feasable, real world, 21st century solution? How do you address the problem of many children being un-adopted after being born?

What about a solution for the insest/rape problem? (thus far I'm seeing blind denial)

Humm... yeah... once again, I don't think I'll be supporting your booth.

Thanks for playing though.

For reference, note that last month's posting caused some similar controversy:






Full rant and rave discussion: Charity stall at Mauer Park, September 2007

If people want to commit the sin of sex outside of marriage, then not only will they have to deal with the Lord, but also the terrible consequences that come from their sinful dalliances.


Shame. I can send you some literature if you'd like? Don't remain ignorant

Each to their own, but I certainly would NOT support your stall as both this charity and the previous one are not in line with my thinking.

I mean sex before marriage as a sin. It is the 21st century and that is where the Catholic Church is failing to modernise. Just go to Ireland now compared to 30 years ago and see the drop in attendance. The last time I went (to please my Mother!) mass was full of the elderly and Polish.

Considering I was raised catholic, and know all the arguments related to God and the lord, you still didn't offer a solution to the question of what's a real 21st century solution?

Re literature: I have the literature about how they're performed, what happens and so on. Been there done that. Would never have one myself. Thanks for the offer of the literature.

That being said, I also believe it's that person's ability to choose - with their partner - the best solution for them. Whether or not I agree with their decision. (heck, I don't agree that kids should be molested either - but it happens.) If they choose abortion, they should have one done legally and through the doctor as opposed to some back alley methods. Again, I would never have one, but... I also can't support banning them totally as an option.

Unfortunately, with 6 billion people in the world, shit happens, morals can't be forced on others, and all we can do is hope that people like yourself will become enlightened enough to be able to answer the questions posed instead of offering "literature" stating that we shouldn't "remain ignorant" when perhaps it's not we who are ignorant but a group or individual attempting to force one's beliefs on others.

Again I ask:

What's your feasable, real world, 21st century solution to the problem of unwanted pregnancy? Let's be real, sex is happening. Like it or not. They're pregnant, sex has been had. Saying "don't have sex" doesn't work anymore. Give us a real solution for now that they're pregnant, can't afford the baby, don't want the baby, wouldn't be a good parent.

If your argument is adoption; fine. How do you address the problem of many children being un-adopted after being born? Are Orphanages acceptable in the 21st century?

What about a solution for the insest/rape problem? (thus far I'm seeing blind denial)

~Rose

ed for spelling.

Are we talking from personal experience here? I have taken note of where in the US you come from originally.

Your not playing fair by trying to make the issue personal in order to avoid answering a legitimate question.

Rose,

Just a thought on your orphanage issue, on whether or not its acceptable in the 21st century - IMO they are. I don't think the principle is wrong, but it's the execution which is the real issue which causes the problems.

How to prevent the problem? Well, over the past decade or so, even volunteers who work with children (ie coaches, etc.) have to go through police clearances in order to be able to do that type of work. While this brings up other issues in terms of whether or not someone should be forgiven after "paying their debt to society" by serving their time, and whether or not its the most effective means of prevention are debatable, but it's a start.

Personally, I'd rather not even get to that stage, as I've always supported choice.

And freedom of religion means not only are you free to express it, but you're also free to not have it shoved down your throat should you choose to ignore it.

@ MY, I thought you said it was for "The Lord" to judge...

Tsk tsk.

Ask yourself: WWJD... WWJD?

Aside from being an evasion of the question, this seems like a wildly inappropriate and mean-spirited question to ask on a public message forum. If you are actually concerned that someone else has been the victim of sexual abuse and want to discuss it, you should send them a private message. Your public post betrays either a gross lack of tact, or a resort to a very poor debate technique: the ad hominem attack (in which you attack the person rather than the message, typically because you have no good answer to the message). Whatever the case may be, wave goodbye to your credibility.

Excuse me Kurteous, she is a religous fanatic, she has no credibility to lose.

*thanks the other Toytowners coming to her rescue and redirecting the topic back to where it began.*

I'll not speak on personal experience other than to say for those who know me well enough, they know answers to questions like that, and also know that I'm also very much a champion for those who don't always get a say.

Coming from a very small town Georgia, however, I grew up in an area where a very good friend of mine became pregnant at 13 due to a very very violent rape by her uncle. (She was in the hospital for nearly 2 months after that.) He wound up in jail, the entire small town knew who she was (very obvious of course - because there were articles in the paper about the situation - even though they didn't mention her name... how many 13 year olds do YOU know who are having a baby and have the same last name as the uncle?) and subsequently the trauma she went through.

Due to parental pressures, she was strongly encouraged to have the baby. She decided to commit suicide within a short time after that because she not only couldn't bear the shame and ridicule, the child added to the trauma.

It is from this situation - because of seeing her go through the hazing, the court trials, and the pressure of a child not ready to be a parent that I say --

WHO are YOU to decide for this girl what is right or not? What if she didn't have to have that baby and abortion was an option? Should she choose to have an abortion, shouldn't she be able to have one legally?

Again, I state - NO, I would never have one. No, I don't agree with them. I don't feel that they should be used as contraception, nor do I feel that they should be used due to genetic disorders.

I do, however stand firmly on my belief in choice, and the right of someone to weigh the available options and decide what's best for them. Subsequently have one in the most safe way possible should they decide to do so.

And still, there is no answer to the questions originally asked...

What's your feasable, real world, 21st century solution to the problem of unwanted pregnancy? Let's be real, sex is happening. Like it or not. They're pregnant, sex has been had. Saying "don't have sex" doesn't work anymore. Give us a real solution for now that they're pregnant, can't afford the baby, don't want the baby, wouldn't be a good parent.

If your argument is adoption; fine. How do you address the problem of many children being un-adopted after being born? Are Orphanages acceptable in the 21st century?

What about a solution for the insest/rape problem? (thus far I'm seeing blind denial)

Sorry to hear that, at least she is with God now. The wicked uncle will get his comeuppance no doubt.

In response to finding a solution to the problem. Well there isn't one really is there? Maybe workhouses should be brought back, they seemed to work in Victorian England/post-War Ireland.

Sounds like www.preciousshite.com to me...

Anyway enough debate, remember to pop along and visit the stall for yourself! We'll be there from 9 am. See you there!

Ms Yates. How can you be so unchristian and uncharitable? Workhouses. Have you read the Raggy Boy Trilogy? Do so and then burn your stall.

Sure you don't want to keep posting? You were doing such a great job of promoting Christian values. Please continue so that everyone who reads this thread will have a clear idea of what sort of person you are and the kind of ideals you hold, so they can make a really informed decision as to whether they want to support your 'charity' and endorse the mindset of others like you.

Humph. Ok so let me get this straight... you're against abortion, but it's ok for someone to kill themselves?

TECHNICALLY, according to my catholic teaching, abortion is bad, and since my friend killed herself, she's in hell. Not with god. (part of why I don't go by religion anymore.)

Ah Rose, it's 830 PM. It's Thursday night. You should be at the church of "Thursday Night Toytown Drinks" right now. And celebrating Game 1's Bosox win.

Frankly I like BabBob better because I know he's taking the piss, and he's funny.

This woman strikes me as the real article, and is both repulsive and scary.

@PR Technically you're correct. Suicide is a dreadful sin because only God has the right to decide who lives or dies. Funnily enough martyrdom is revered although its also suicide. So anyway I applaud your decision to turn your back on the Catholic bullshit because otherwise you have to believe she's burning in hell.

yeah - I'm always intregued by religion in general though. I think there's some good things that come out of it - peace, understanding, and the best of humankind can be seen.

By the same token, fanatics who don't learn the main points - charity, love, hope, etc. and turn to judgment are the ones who show the worst side of humanity. I guess IMHO, the religion thing is good but must be peppered with a strong dose of common sense and the ability to realize that not everyone has to do things "MY" way. God (Gods), Evolution - whatever - gave us a freedom of thought, understanding, and choice for a reason...

Vince - yeah, I should have been, but I was up until 2:30 am Wednesday... and got 2.5 hours of sleep before getting up and working all day. Just too tired. However, tonight is the opera and an opportunity to celebrate BOTH the Red Sox wins - and do it in STYLE.

~Rose

Greetings,

Due to the ongoing success of our charity stalls at Mauer Park, the Nicolai Kirchgruppe have decided to lay on some more stalls this weekend. As ever we'll be selling all different types of DDR-related fare- look out for the Erich Honecker coaster!

This week we'll be donating our proceeds towards the American-based Westboro Baptist Church. Please give generously.

God bless,

Margaret

Fantastic ! It just keeps getting better !

Hey, Marge, I thought you only donated to charity on the last Sunday? Suddenly you've come over all christian on us, and there I was thinking you were a party girl 3 out of the 4 weeks. Ah well.

I stopped reading this after that. It smells and has a bridge over it and it's not the Thames...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church

EDIT: I'm glad God is in on the anti-smoking business...