Employer Letter of Concern

Has anyone written or seen a 'Letter of Concern' in German? I would like to protest a firing decision at my employer (the person affected was truly a genuine asset to the company), and am curious if there's an established protocol for such in Germany. Links to examples and/or advice would be very welcome.

Why would you do this?

Oh, sorry - I meant, why in heaven's name would you do this?

Would def. run this one past a labour lawyer before proceeding.

Wouldn't it be better to have an informal chat with whoever is responsible for the decision?

Ditto tom_a, if you feel that strongly about it but i would strongly advise against putting anything in writing unless you believe yourself to be totally fireproof.

No, I'm absolutely not fireproof.

But I have a somewhat fortunate position in being able to cope with repercussions, if that's what you mean. Unless it would involve a labor lawyer - why on earth would that be necessary? Is there a possibility of a lawsuit for expressing disapproval and concern, particularly on the record?

Have you got a Betriebsrat? Speak to them first. Or a lawyer specialised in employment law. Would be very careful if you don't know why this person has been asked to leave.

Personally i would keep out of it.Fighting someones elses battles in Germany is not the done thing.Of course you realise that the person invilved could be an asset to your employer but if you express your opinion in writing then you could be marked yourself.

If you even have to ask why a labour lawyer would be relevant, don't do this.

I can tell you what my labour lawyer would say: "Just don't do it. If you can accept that and spare me having to explain, we can end this call now and you can spend the amount I'd charge for explaining on something you can use."

Just as a matter of interest: Why was he fired?

I'm sure we have all stepped in when someone was about to be fired and helped to save their job or at least tried but once the decision has been carried out, it's very difficult to do anything about in my experience.

This is probably true. I'm work for a small team (4) within an international computer manufacturer. When my colleague got fired recently (not for misconduct - the organisation was told to loose staff) some of my US colleagues were standing around saying "how terrible" and "maybe if we drop some tasks & retrain we can manage" but didnt DO anything. In reality the rest of us would have been left set up to fail...

I tend to see red in such situations. Luckily many of us were at a conference in the US & I was able to nab the Vice President of the service group that NEEDS our work (luckily hes from UK & I know him) & to cut a story short our colleague was reinstated within 3 days and the team was re-orged under this VPs wing. Doesn't make current life any easier but at least we continue and are out of the firing-line of our previous organisation... I guess they were rather sore.

In the case in this thread I'd try to be sure of my information and if you are confident have a talk with the Betriebsrat or tackle the responsible person directly but not in front of anyone else...

Also consider whether the person would actually want to work for a company that has already fired them.

I personally would not get involved, and that aside, I would advise anyone to not get involved. Don't go near the betriebsrat, don't speak to lawyers, don't do anything in fact. People get fired. If the person fired was good at the job, he/she will get another. If it means you now have more work, or things don't run as smoothly as before, then you can sit smugly knowing you were right, and nothing more. Getting involved will just cause you hassle, and why would you want that? At the very least, it may involve you having to have unneccesary conversations with German people. Avoid like the proverbial plague.

That all depends. Usually in Europe if you are over 50 you will have great difficulty gaining employment regardless of how good you may be. In the case mentioned above my colleague was around 60 & would have had zero chance - at least in the IT world.

It's a shame they fired a good employee - but it's their loss, not yours. Don't get involved. Companies fire good employees for all kinds of stupid reasons, often because the management themselves are stupid.

The Don is right, only I would go further and say don't gossip about it; smile and do your job. If the company is on a number counting exercise, there is usually little rhyme or reason about who and when they lay off people. The chance is that they will do it again and it may be you if you have a snarl on your face. Happens all the time and your mate will find another job. Or starve, which is unlikely.

Well what a cowardly lot of responses. I would get a lawyer to draft a letter up so you don't make any legal slip-ups (like the letter being misconstrued as a threat) but you don't have to put the law firm's name on it.

You've done this have you Chipbag?

Gone on a mighty crusade and drafted legal letters in defence of a colleague?

Absolutely! ...yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir! Job security is important, but not at any cost, imo

I do find these responses cowardly. The 'me' generation steadfastly refusing to stand up for any principle. What a shame. I applaud Randy for wanting to do something. Unfortunately, I don't know of any official language for the letter you want to write. A face to face conversation expressing your concern with the responsible person would be a better start anyway. In the end, there may be nothing effective that you can do, but I do believe it's the right thing to try.

I think you're jumping the gun there to say that the responses have been cowardly. Randy still hasn't yet revealed why this guy has been fired, maybe he doesn't know the reason himself. I'd be damned if I'd go to my boss to stand up for someone that had stolen something for example, no matter how good he was at his job or how nice a guy he was.

I am just curious ... the reason he got fired is known? And he actually got fired - that means he didn't resign in agreement with the employer? On number cutting occasions it's quite common that a company lets go the better people because they are more likely to find a job afterwards.

Have you spoken to that guy? ... and he really wants that job back? Personally if a company fires me, I wouldn't want to continue working for them. Except they fired me for the reason given above.

If you seriously have the urge to step up, then don't do it in written form. That makes you a target. Be more subtle and talk to people in charge you trust. Make them write that letter. Again, do NOT do it by writing. I know some guys who did just that and by doing so they devastated their further career in that particular company.

Might be a better approach to ask how this person is going to be replaced, as use that as a segue to getting him/her reinstated, if the OP has a realistic chance of getting a decision-maker to do so, a la HEM. As HEM put it, you will make an enemy in doing so, and that is usually detrimental to a greater extent than losing a valued colleague.
"Fighting the man" might be satisfying for a few moments but the repercussions could last a lifetime. I would advise against it. Kat, your advice is too emotional for a situation that demands a cool head and restraint.

Thanks for the responses, folks, it's all good to read. I won't go into details of the dismissal, as it's irrelevant to my own concern, which is entirely selfish. It's nothing to do with trying to get the colleague hired back, as neither side really wants that. What's done is done and won't be undone, and likely everyone will be happier for it (don_riina sums that up nicely). I'm definitely not a principled Saint, but with relatively few dependencies and a limited capacity to take a stance, which I very rarely take advantage of, I am weighing the cause.

It's curious to see responses relating to lawyers though. I think this sort of written censure is not that uncommon, at least in the States, and I've never heard of legal consequences for writing one (I don't mean threats, simply disapproval) . Most employers take two formal opportunities per year to give corrective or positive feedback to their employees; I'm curious as to what legal liabilities arise for the same sort of feedback from employee to employer? I'm thinking MollyB's advice to pay a lawyer to clarify an issue I want guidance on may be best, here.

The question was, whether to submit a letter of concern. This is the official role of the Betriebsrat, and they will be given all the facts of the case, by law.

If this dismissal was unfair or discriminatory it is the responsibility of *the person dismissed* to get themselves a lawyer and raise a challenge - they should do this immediately. If they don't, then maybe they know the real reason they were fired - but more to the point *you don't*. It's quite hard to fire people under German law, so companies generally don't risk it unless they have a very good case.

If you don't have a Betriebsrat, then set one up, so next time you'll be better placed to help a colleague in distress.

I assume it is a German company? If so, such a Letter of Concern is rather unusual and it's difficult to predict the consequences. If the letter is diplomatic, the reaction will be something like: "Yes, all very regrettable, but now we have to move on, and I'm sure you'll manage, ..." If the letter is more direct, the responsible people will feel as if you questioned the wisdom of their decisions. Even if they see that you have a point, they probably won't admit an error, as they fear this could undermine their authority.

Your colleague is probably well advised to consult a Fachanwalt für Arbeitsrecht without delay (if he hasn't done so already), because many dismissals are dodgy. And he will appreciate your moral support.

I would check it with a lawyer because this is a foreign jurisdiction and also because the lawyer can probably draft up something quickly which meets your needs without exceeding them. I don't think it has to be a labour lawyer, there is a lawyer around the corner from me who does advice for 1 euro/minute, should be one in your area. As for the foreign jurisdiction issue, here is for example a law providing fines etc for a conviction of "insult" in germany (some of the braver correspondents in this thread will no doubt now claim to have tested it every saturday night).

Chipbag, I think it is less about avoiding legal traps than about psychology, putting yourself in the shoes of the addressee(s). How can the executives react without losing their faces? So I'm also on the side of the "cowards", because the outcome for the OP, who doesn't even hope to make the bosses revise the dismissal, could well be to get the reputation of a troublemaker ("Quertreiber"). This is a resigned view of corporate culture, I know ...

It sounds to me more like a worry about the consequences of the dismissed person not being there, not so much the dismissal. These are valid points and should be raised, but from the point of view of operational procedure and client satisfaction etc etc. Not that of oh shit now i have to work harder.

As to cowardice, yep some of the answers here do verge on the boarder line of it. If you feel moraly oblidged to pop up your head and say waht you think is right, you should do so, but in a manner that is calm and understanding and treats the subject as a non-personal affair. Crikey that was how I was bought up. A lot of the answers here sound. Well. German.

Randy asked about the format of a letter of concern, which immediately produced a lot of off-thread advice all slanted in one direction ie cap-in-hand. It's more than extremely obvious what the adverse personal/personnel consequences might be for Randy who I assume is big and ugly enough to figure that out by himself.

Cowardly is hiding under a table if your mates are in a fight. Not giving a flying fuck about some bloke at work getting fired, and avoiding the hassle of talking to some krouts about it is jack shit to do with cowardice, it is purely self-serving laziness, and the best option. Colleagues are colleagues, not mates, fuck them.

chipbag: Isn't big and ugly part of a set including stupid?

RainyDays: I agree completely with your view of anticipated reactions. This is only a consideration for selfish, not self-interest reasons. By that I don't mean "oh-shit-I-have-to-work-harder."

I guess to sum up various views on the thread:

- There's no such format of letter in Germany
- Admonishing or censuring an employer in Germany is not a done thing.
- Doing such can at best receive a brief sympathetic response from a good employer, but likely much worse from a 'normal' employer.
- More people recommend a face-to-face meeting if necessary, rather than written formal statement.
- Consult a lawyer before sticking one's neck out.
- "The nail that sticks up, gets hammered down."

Thanks for the comments, folks!

Randy, "big and ugly enough to.." is an expression which means that someone is an adult and capable of making their own decisions, there is no intention to insult. Personally, I wouldn't listen to people who waffle on about "this is how things are done in germany.." or "you don't do this in germany" even germans who say this. I don't think the differences are that great, it's the same basic stuff of self-confidence and fairness.

There is a Quote "When in Rome do as the Romans do"

We are not in the US of A - the German way of doing things is different. If people learned to accept that and stopped trying to impose their own Mindsets in other cultures then the world would maybe be a better place.

So the person was fired...we don`t have the details or maybe only one side of the story - and you want to protest against it. Go ahead...do it the your way and see where it gets you. It will achieve nothing except maybe a notation in your Personnel file. If you make it public you will notice that your Workmates will back off to a safe distance so as not to get involved (a typical German Traít). You will receive no thanks and no Laurel wreaths...as the German Band "Die Prinzen" sang...Du Kriegst ein Arschtritt als Dankeschön"
and when they fire you for being a "Querulant"...no one will speak in your name.

Darn it, LIMA... I was just now preparing my red, white & blue Uncle Sam outfit, and had already finished an outline for my righteous and hegemonic speech to be given at tomorrow morning's Semmelpause. Now I must sadly reconsider and contemplate the notorious Vorurteil of my people.

Jokes aside, you're right, it does seem rare that one speaks for another in risky situations. 'Tis a shame, eh? Besides, I was simply asking for experiences, advice, and a question.

I'd be very surprised if anyone would do such a thing in the US, either. Trust me, it's not a US thing. I suspect that there are a certain number of people who would urge a protest, yet wouldn't do such an impetuous thing themselves.

My,my ... I am impressed ! You really have nothing to lose then by writing that Letter of Concern.


Dying to know - now won't you tell us ?

Not the "done thing"? In Germany?

But probably in other countries where they speak the queen's language? or what?

Betriebsrat has to approve all suspensions, if there is a Betriebsrat in your company. If not, depending in which industry you work, possible the trade union (Gewerkschaft) could give legal aid.

Keep fighting someone else's battles and show us Hermans the way!