Bullying and lying - behaviour by adult Germans

Hello everyone!
Eventually, I’ve arrived. I’m settling down pretty well. But there are 2 things that really bother me and I would like to hear about other expats experiences. I tried to search but nothing popped out.
First, it's bullying. As soon as I do not agree with German point of view as bullying begins. I was bullied even by my relocation agent (the same person who was hired by the company to help me to settle down here). I’m 38 y.o. who comes from Canada and has no idea what to do about bullying. As far as I can remember I was never bullied back home . Truly speaking, I freeze and want to run away. I have a really hard time dealing with it.
The second thing is lying, lying, constant lying. I do not know why Germans think that if I do not speak German it means that I’m half-witted. Ex. In supermarket I wanted to buy a magazine file made out of cardboard. At the cash register the girl could find the code strip, so she went to check the price. And Surprise! Surprise! Mysteriously my cardboard magazine file became plastic and 10 times more expensive. I simply refused to buy it. Another ex. I’ve bought some furniture and paid for delivery and assembly. The first thing, the delivery guy told me, was that delivery had been paid and if I wanted my furniture to be assembled, it would be extra. He did it holding a copy of the bill in front of my nose and pointing his finger at the delivery and assembly charge. FYI, he was German (not Turk or some other nationality as someone tried to explain me). It took me 5 seconds to explain him that I know where and how I spend my money.
Sorry for such long post. I would like to know how people from the same background get over these. How are you handling bullying? Does it bother you when people lie? How long did it take you to get used to it (if you ever did)?
For dear German friends: Nothing personal but I’m NOT interested in your opinion and your experiences abroad
Cheers!
Bumblebee

Jerks bully, not Germans specifically. Had a German bully me on Wednesday, but he's a known jerk in our circle of German friends and I'm boycotting him again now as I have been the last two years after the last bullying incident. And the "lying" examples sound like laziness and misunderstandings, cleared up within 5 seconds in one instance. Happens everywhere.

Welcome to Germany, it gets better! And do change your location in your profile or you'll confuse us.

mmmm haven't had anything of the kind happen to me here. Any ideas what could have set them off?

Can't say I've come across much more lying here than anywhere else - probably less, if anything. But there are people everywhere who will try to take advantage. Just stand up for yourself and be assertive but stay as calm as you can. I wouldn't take it personally - and if there's a chance people might just be making a mistake, give them the benefit of the doubt. Not everyone's out to get you!

As far as the bullying goes, I do find Germans sometimes like to argue their point fairly strenuously and will attempt to set you straight if they don't agree - I've probably come across that in public here more often than in England, for example. Is that what you mean? They're not necessarily trying to bully you though - it may seem like that because they're much more direct than you're used to? Anyway, just stay calm, listen to what they have to say (unless they're being abusive or are obviously insane) and then make your own views clear. Even if they get annoyed, try to keep your cool. Most people will give up faster if they see they're not getting a reaction, whatever their nationality. If they're actually insulting you or getting aggressive, I'd just walk away and refuse to discuss it any further. Alternatively, view it as an open invitation to vent all your frustrations on them... but don't be surprised if they then call the police!

Edit: Just seen your subheader. I'm English, so feel free to ignore.

a few deep breaths. give as good back as you get. if no resolve, speak to someone else who is there to sort stuff out for you? stand up for yourself just one time and every time after that will be easier. people back down if you stand your ground. so do it! 100% certain people start to break if you stick to your guns.


a swift "f*ck off.", walk out and buy somewhere else. make a scene. i saw someone make a scene over 2 cents once. it does happen.


Have you phoned the company responsible? Leave it till they send someone round to assemble?

Keep the faith. Sure its just some initial teething problems.

Sure, it happens. And what does it achieve? A lot of ill-feeling all round and no productive results. Stand up for yourself, yes, but how is making a scene going to help?

Also, what if it was a genuine mistake? Hardly think it merits a load of shouting and swearing, really.

Edit: Actually, this is starting to remind me of one of my favourite threads of all time: dealing with a cheating Postbank employee. Vintage Toytown.

i didnt say shout or a load of it. but id def mutter ( like i saw the 2cents woman do ) and walk away. whats wrong with that?

it makes you feel like you havent been bullied by someone achieves nothing more i guess, bothered, but in those situations, doubt you are gonna achieve anything anyway

I see. Well, muttering and walking off is more passive-aggressive than 'making a scene' to me. Also not sure it's the best method, but better than what I thought you had in mind!

I think I just lost a few braincells reading that topic.

I was about to say how i would deal with it but, like Tiggi, i'm English so clearly you don't want my opinion.

Just we wee tip bumblebee. If you post something like 'how do North Americans' deal with something that's clearly a generic issue like bullying any lying you're quite likely to get peoples backs up. On a forum like this you'll end up getting negative feedback from non 'North Amercians' which might give you the feeling you're beeing bullied...

Thanks for your advices.
Dear Tiggi, bluedave and Pas, I did not mean to offend any non-Americans. I think that Tiggi gave me pretty good insight of German way of conversation. The main reason for me to specify North Americans was to get advice from people with the similar set of mind and life experience.
As Canadian I can say that mostly we are very un-aggressive and trusting. So bulling and lying for majority of Canadians is exceptional and stressful situation.
I see meditation classes and a lot of deep breathing in my nearest future.
I apologise again as it was never my intention to offend anyone. Sometimes it's quite difficult to express yourself properly in short messages.
Cheers
Bumblebee

Relocation agent bullying you? What did he/she exactly do. We had similar issue (not bullying though) and the relocation agency replaced her and was apologetic. Obviously they do not want to loose the biz from your company...

Coming from a canadian you just have to learn to keep your ground. Forget about being polite or rude you just have to be assertive. I don't think it's hard for us as canadians to adapt to Germany, but you just cannot be a pushover. It took me a while to get used to the whole idea, but the Germans don't really see themselves as bullying, it's just a nation of very stubborn people. I could give you numerous examples of things that have happened and how I have ended up dealing with them positively, but as you don't want shared experiences I will keep it to myself.

FWIW, I find that other anglos in general have a mindset very similar to mine, as far as regionally relevant similarities go. Haven't met too many from the U.K. who are pro-bully ... unless they were lying to me.

Keep in mind that Europeans who've dealt with a lot of North Americans haven't always seen the best of our ilk. No idea if these were North Americans (if so, certainly not Canadians!) but this taxi driver will be a little less friendly to Anglos in the future. (I'm surprised I haven't yet been banned from commenting there.)

Also, people who are different and not aware of how wrong this is are very threatening to some Germans. From the time they're small, they're socialized to behave in a certain way. This creates a certain latent resentment in the most conformist of them, so what you feel as bullying to them often feels very necessary to their self- preservation.

As your German improves, you'll get less baloney from clerks, and more from other sources.

Omigosh. The board won't accept this post, b/c I inserted too many emoticons. That's a first. Will get those out right away. (Can MicroSoft set German Word to limit the number of !!! and make all-caps impossible?)

I'm Irish so you clearly won't be requiring my opinion either, but as it's a relatively open board I'm free to give it anyway. However, feel free not to read anything after this sentence.

Ok, you're still reading, fair enough. Personally I think you've got a serious bumblebee in your bonnet and come across as a pretty weak person who is offended by the slightest thing. Hmmm, I was going to go on about nationality traits, methods of getting on here and so forth but decided I can't be arsed. I'll leave you with this, grow up, get a thicker skin and you'll get along just fine. It's all been said before on many other threads about moving here. Easy to find if you take the time to look. In no time at all you'll become comfortable dealing with the locals and the slightly different culture which exists here as compared to Canada. Don't and you'll just end up being completely and utterly miserable. You choose.

Raising her voice, talking to me as if I was a 3 y.o. , ignoring my requests and so on. Thankfully, I’m finished with her. I could not complaint to anyone because she was an owner of the relocation agency.
And she had told me so many lies that I’m still fuming about it.
Ex. While visiting houses and signing the lease I was told that everything would be cleaned up “to professional standard�. That “professional standard“included windows, radiators and whatever not. During the house inspection, I found out that bathrooms, and especially outside of the shower stall, were real pigsty. Immediately, I was told by the house agent and relocation agent that they are going to hire professional cleaning services and everything would be done “up to professional standard�. I even have an e-mail regarding the hire of the professional cleaning services.
At the end it was me spending more than a week cleaning a “professionally cleaned� house up to living standards (trust me, they are not that high). Professional cleaning service hired to clean the bathrooms was the same house agent. He arrived one day with a bucket, some vinegar and old towel, sprayed shower stall and bathtub with vinegar, broke the shower head holder and happily left me with all dirt intact.
Please note that this post is not about dirt, it’s about blatant lying in my face that left me frustrated and stressed. The main point is that I still can not figure out why. Is it some German way of doing things?
Cheers
Bumblebee

I strongly recommend you lose what is coming across in your posts as a fairly anti-German attitude. You are going to run into troublesome people wherever you go. Don't automatically link problems you encounter with the nation as a whole. That's a bad foot to start off on. You sound to me like you are quite young and inexperienced in terms of being away from your home soil. Is this the case? Ok, just looked at your first post again and you are 38, I'm surprised.

Dear iain,
I would love to hear about your experience in Germany.
I mentioned in my first message that I'm not interested to know how Germans are settling abroad. I’m not German and their experience is not going to help me. That’s it.

bumblebee, I know you don't want my opinion on this, so let me just say this: don't you think there is a lot more variance within a nationality than sometimes between two individuals of different nationalities? I think it would help you a lot to just stop thinking so much in categories of nationality. A person is more complex than that. The Germans you deal with are not the way they are just because they are Germans, just like you are not the way you are just because you are Canadian.

I like the Irish

Nah Eugene, you can't do that either. That's just generalising in a positive way as against Bumblebee's negative generalising.

Ah go on so, yes we're fabulous, every last potato eating, bog trotting, muck chewing one of us.

Absolute bollox. I worked for Canadians for 12 years in Toronto and found aggressive behavior and bullying just like any other nationality, mostly cloaked in an attitude of "Hey, we're Canadians so bullying isn't in our nature". Have a look at your own posts - you've isolated half of TT with your exclusion of other nations and you've only just arrived.

I noticed that if I express a contrary opinion - be it a working environment or with mothers on the playground - that an intense discussion follows or someone tries to convince me why I'm wrong. It's direct and sometimes argumentative, but I wouldn't call it bullying.
Chalk it up to cultural differences, toughen up and call people on their shit if you think it's necessary.

Well said. That's exactly how I feel about it but put into words better than I did.

Ithink what you call bullying isn't really that. It's just the german default attitude when dealing with perfect strangers. Agressive, mistrustful, self-centered and unemphatic. (They liek to call it direct but its rather tactless and conterproductive) Oddest thing in this country is that once you've broken the ice they turn out to be ordinary human beings. I still well after a decade find that strange, and it accounts for half of the cultural problems from getting of public transport to just simple general enquiries. I haven't quiet worked out if our hosts have ever actualy been tought how to be polite and show respect and empathy with strangers in public, but if the did it must be a very very short lesson on the last day of the term before christmas. Needless to say I drive my boys mad with constant instructions on how they are to behave in public. And communicate to people.

The boy's right. Don't get mad, get even. I got well and truly stuffed by the most arrogant little kid markler you would ever have the misfortune to deal with back in 2001. Me and a mate went round after dark and turned his Smart onto its side. Clever? Probably not. Satisfying? Defo.

like said above, can not generalize a nationality. Some professions related to real estate, relocation do not have good reputation here in Germany (in other countries, eg UK you would not 100% trust your friendly real estate agent either).

In our case in Germany the Makler who showed us our apartment had vivid imagination, described how the treppenhaus would be painted in beautiful red and cream etc... and it turned out to be a lie. So yes there are real estate agents who lie, but they have so low reputation here in Germany that no German believes them (and makes sure all important points are in the contract). The professional clean was 6 cleaner turning up with ladders, vacum cleaners etc and cleaned for 8 hours. It was amazing, felt like a lab afterwards.

What helped us is to speak about our experience with people in similar situation - regardless of their nationality - and laugh about it over a good beer/wine. it is normal to be sensitive when you move to a different country/culture, you do not know many people, dont know how things work here etc

I totally agree with Batson Creek... To say that Canadians don't bully is just silly - I live in canada... there's sude and abnoxious people here, just like everywhere else. i've spent a year there when i was 18 and I know it's as bad as you make it to be. If you really dislike it that much and think that people are impossible to deal with, i will gladly take your spot. Let's trade - I am desperately trying to land a job in Germany and leave Toronto behind.

cheers

I don't know if I'd say people here are bulliers and liars, but they definitely have some customer service issues.

Landlords are the worst. Consider yourself lucky if you get any of your security deposit back.

I don't know if this is considered bullying. But I was on line a few weeks back at a large hardware/home supply store and my boyfriend went to get something last minute and out of nowhere this old man is behind me. Impatiently hopping around and the next thing I knew he was literally on my shoulder. I kid you not, his face was on my shoulder. I remained calm and called my boyfriend on his cell to come back immediately. I know as a "North American" I need some personal space. It seems some, not all, Germans, don't like waiting on lines??? Impatient? This is the kind of thing where I'm from that can get you slapped, pushed or punched.

Also coming back home, I had to wait on an airport transfer line and again a whole family of four were literally on my back. This time I was impatient with them, and I told them to back it up. I felt kinda bad afterwards, but you know if they're coming on the same flight to NYC or wherever, they better learn fast that is not acceptable behavior.

So my problem so far has been monkeys on my back. I can laugh about it now, but when it is happening, I am beyond annoyed and often shocked that they are doing this.

Actually let me check myself. All humans need personal space. Not just North Americans. I won't generalize but I am not going to put up with people pushed up on my back because they can't wait to be next. Anybody has any tactics I can use should this problem arise again?

jazzie, yes everyone needs personal space, but just how much is needed is indeed a cultural concept and Germans on average tend to keep and need less personal space than North Americans. That is why Americans in Germany are likely to encounter a lot of people "invading" their personal space (though to the invaders it is absolutely normal to keep this distance.
You could always ask people (nicely) to take a step back, or get used to it. Whichever you prefer. Of course some people really do get too close even for German standards, and if you are that uncomfortable, either say something or avoid the situation (i.e. leave).
At any rate I would try to stay calm and nice about it, because that is a cultural difference and as a foreigner in the country, you will likely encounter many differences and it would be better to get used to them, lower / change your expectations, than to be upset and miserable every time people do not meet your North American standard. It does not make them any more rude than Americans, they just hold themselves and are held by other Germans to a different standard than they would had they grown up in the States or Canada.

The latter works for me unless I'm tired/stressed ... in which case it =really= gets on my nerves and I revert to the former. Big smile and "you're going to think this sounds absolutely crazy, but I'm not from here and there's a difference in space needs of about 20cm, mostly I can deal with it but today I'm really on edge. Would you be able to move back a bit? It's really nothing personal, I'm just really worn down blah blah." Just to get me to shut up and stop apologizing (and maybe b/c I keep describing myself as about to blow a gasket) most ppl move back.

When I'm just a little annoyed, I bring up the difference at the meta level, and some people have then asked if they were too close.

It's funny - with people of lat. or med. origin, the space thing doesn't bother me at all. It's the small diff. with Germans that really gets me.

I don't think it is a North American thing per se. As a New Yorker, I am telling you that type of behavior can get you knocked out. I've seen it.
I'll figure it out. Maybe I can even make a joke out of it, if I could joke in German.

Thanks MollyB. Some great suggestions.
I'm Latin and I don't mind getting close, but the airport thing was a little too much.
There's always a time and place.

I'll see what new experiences come about when I come back in few weeks.

I don't particularly. They may be my ancestors, but their skin is as thin as an Irish potato and the mooks seem to be all mouth. They bark loudly, but I don't think they are much for fighting. Funny that considering Notre Dame is the Fighting Irish. What can you say? In the words of Jim Carroll, they are Catholic Boys afterall.


Exactly! Simply express your opinion back and move on. The lowest critter on earth is the one that thinks they won because you moved on and didn't bother to come down to their level and answer their lies. It happens here on TT just as much as in the real world. If I had a dime for every time that happened, I would be richer than Bill Gates.

What do the Fighting Irish have to do with Notre Dame?

If you're going to hide behind the "I'm from Canada, I'm nice" thing, it's time to get over it. It's BS anyway, we all know that Canadians are tough assholes hiding behind sweet smiles. Now that you live here, you're going to either learn who you really are and present THAT to the world, or you'll run whimpering home -- no better for the experience.

Germans are direct, and I respect that. I had an interesting conversation with a colleague who confessed she was a bit anxious when she first started working for me. Because of what she'd learned about North American culture, she needed to be sure that when I said was said I was pleased with her work, that I really meant it. From that perspective, it doesn't put our countrymen in a flattering light. We have a lot to learn from German culture.

I am putting that into the post of the Century.

Eurovol in dumbfuck generalisation shocker! Hang on, you don't like the Irish because you think they don't like fighting. How fucking bizarre. Let me take the opportunity to say that we are quite happy to disown you completely. You and whatever shite you were waffling on about previously in terms of some connection with Cork. Be off with you lad.

See what I mean!

Oh sorry, I'll help you out, lemme just reach through the 'puter and start a fight with you. Deary me.

It's true, all that clubbing of baby seals is done by nasty foriegners!

Any you call that bullying.

Deary you.

How about I buy you a beer sometime and tell you how I am related to Oliver Cromwell?

Sorry mate, that would involve listening to you droning on. Life is way too short.

no that would have been my folks about 20 or so years ago. we stick to the adult ones now, however you should maybe start thinking about how vicious we were to the cod as opposed to the seal. you see a guy running around a flop of ice has a pretty good chance of landing in the ocean so you have a bit of a give and take, with the trawlers it was simple rape. Which makes the news the lovely cute baby seal.

Ain't that the truth and speaks volumes as to the OP.

I never realised that you come from such a violent background!

Learn a new thing everyday