Picture Publication on TTM

Hi
the H3 pictures put into one of the events threads gave me stomach-ache. And I wasn't the only one.
Not because of the content but because of the legal aspects.
Certain legal aspects should be noted:
A person cannot at present refuse to have an image taken but under the Gesetz betreffend das Urheberrecht an Werken der bildenden Künste und der Photographie (KUG) (§§ 22-24, 33, 37, 38, 42-44, 48 und 50 but 22-24 in particular) I can refuse any right to publish in any form images of myself.
The persons pictured without permisssion may also claim damages.
Under KUG §37 a destruction of the pictures can also be ordered.
Publishing of images without permission can be seen as an attack on the Selbstbestimmungsrecht and Schutz des privates Lebensraums (see Grundgesetz - German consition §§ 1 & 2) and thus the rights of those pictures are greater than the rights of those owning picture copyright.
Exceptions to these laws are made for example for "absolute Personen der Zeitgeschichte" (politicians, members of Royal families, etc). People pictured in a very large crowd without distinction are also excluded (but this was not the case in all of the pictures published).
Many might well say, well, don't misbahave when cameras are around. All well and good but there is a huge difference between an image on one computer and one that can be accessed world-wide, particularly with links to a name.
And such links can and do have consequences. It isn't that it is just not fair, it is illegal.
There is also a proprosed change to the StGB (Stafgesetzbuch) §201a currently going through regarding pictures "taken in a home or private area" which is acting against MMS voyeurism but could also be extended to other areas.
The website Bildnisrecht has a lot of excellent tips around this topic (German only).
If you are in doubt, ask first then publish.
Katrina

Good points Katrina, in the line of business I used to work in the Data Protection Act became the bain of my life. It wasnt pictures, but information that I was more concerned with and the right of the information provider over the rights of the information receiver. It takes an age to read and digest and even then it is still full of ambiguities.

Is the DPA for the world wide web universal? Or does it change from country to country?

Note that this is already covered in the Toytown Munich usage guidelines:

i wouldn't worry about the legal asspects, as the bild and az publish the ame sort of pictures, therefore setting precedence. you fail to mention aktuellzeitgeschichte which is rellevant here, and whether a case of defermation is there. be polite and follow the guidelines of if you feel someone will be embarrased about it dont publish it. yes the whole world can see it but thats part of the www concept isn't it.

anyway what in the pictures was disturbing, small scenes of nudity? no. snogging? no? pseudo lesbian kisses? no. alll part of the wies'n. if you're worried about it balnk out the faces.

'It isn't that it is just not fair, it is illegal'

I would never post any picture that would ebarrass anybody, or at least not intentionally Any I think are too bad, dont go on simple. I also do have some really nice pictures of people(You know who you are) and they refuse to let me publish them because they feel they dont look good in a photo.

Anyways, if anyone has an objection to a photo on my site, ask me and I will remove it.

Gideon, all part of the Wies'n looks very different when you don't live here and a potential recruiter googles you. This happens quite a lot, is one way of checking references quickly.
Fact is - it is illegal. Full stop.
It isn't polite either but unfortunately politeness can't be enforced by law (which is good news for the staff of Tenglemanns).
Some won't care but some do - I think that it was important that people are aware of the legal position and that should a picture be published with which the person illustrated isn't happy about, then they can ask to have it removed. Fair is fair and a bit of consideration and being a bit sensible is a good idea.
Katrina
PS this doesn't not mean that I will now veto all pictures of me with a double-chin (because that would be a *lot* of pictures).

@Katrina - You take a great picture

But those ones aren't for publishment *coughcoughcoughcoughcough*
x

Unlucky for those who put their TT name on their CV then...


Same goes for pictures on TT. Send a PM to Editor Bob or me and we'll remove it. After printing it and laminating it for our personal collection.

So that means that what I'm doing with my site is illegal??

I have the following stated on my website: "In case there is a picture on the site which you don't want to have on there, send an email to the webmaster, and the image will be taken away as soon as possible."

But what you're saying is that I should ask the persons on the pictures first before I put them on there??
Sometimes there are pictures that might be a bit embarassing and I won't put them on there, unless that person responds with a yes to my question when I ask if I can put it on there.

true enough, you hardly ever think of the consequences a picture can have years in the future when applying for a job or running for president of US .

But i don't think anybody ever uses full names (maybe sometimes a first name but usually only a user name) so the googling issue doesn't fit in here.

@sparty - i don't know about the exact legal issues, but as long as you remove a picture on somebody's request i think you don't have to worry about getting into trouble

Everyone, just be careful. 99% of pictures are fine, but if in doubt ask.
And Sparty, if someone goes out with you to a bar, it could be seen as a reasonable expectation to end up on your site. Though you might want to mention that to new/thick people. The rule is very simple:
If you can't cover your own arse, cover TTM's at least - either ask first or don't publish.
Katrina

In an ideal world Sparty yes you should ask. In a realistic world however, nobody does, they simply dont have the time or inclination to do so. Having a disclaimer on your site is fine though, and TT, you, 3 Lions and keydeck do so its all good. If anyone objects you can take it off, I know that you have done this in the past.

The whole thing like I said is pretty ambiguous, and to be frank pretty anal. I mean, why would your full name be written near a photo anyway if it wasnt you that posted it? "this is me Frank Smith from 17 Timbuktu Road, Elephantown getting naked at the Wiesn"

In addition, any recruiter who is searching for information on you is by law required to ask your permission first and often you have to sign a declaration allowing them too.

That's DrivinWest in trouble so!!!

Actual laws aside, my policy has always been...

1. Anyone in our group in a social setting is fair game.
2a. Anyone can veto any photo on themselves on my site that they want for whatever reason.
2b. For the most part I try to not use photos that show someone in a bad light. Do unto others and all that.
3. Snaps of peoples kids I will always endevour to make sure it's ok with the parents first.

@ Keydeck - What about all those random blonde chicks?

Just to add. I copied Sparty's and Keydeck's style of pointing a camera and clicking, but I always got more bad photos than good ones. Now I usually ask people if I can take their picture. Online, wherever possible I try to avoid putting names near photos, the last thing I want is some sad git PM'ing the people or emailing me asking 'Who is that or I saw your picture'

Nothing random about them Foxy, I'm quite selective!

I presume you mean the ones that VDB was alluding to yesterday. 'Tis a myth, they don't exist.

That's also in an ideal world only, reality is that they'll search first and then ask. And most recruiters won't bother to ask anymore after having seen certain pictures, they just throw away your job application and forget about the whole thing.


your're saying there are no random blonde chicks in Stockholm

@ VDB, how many pictures do you have on the net with your full name and address next to it?

@Foxy - just a general statement, i wasn't refering to own experiences. And since i've never been very keen on making websites with personal stuff on it i don't think it would be a problem for me.

Yeah but it wouldnt be YOUR website that you would be exposed on - you are on everyone else's. My point was that photos of you may well be put up on the net, but because your full name and addy arent with it, nobody will know with any conviction that it is you, nevermind locating it in the first place from a simple name search.

@ katrina. i'm well aware of the law as i work in the media. i am also aware of the fact that unless you've got alot of money and you can prove tht the pictures posted here are defematory and have caused you damadge then you will get nowhere. if a picture is not to anybody's liking request its removal and an appology for its placement. if you do not do this then a court will not consider the case, as this here is a basicly a website for a social group.

@ vdb. where would a recruiter get the link between our user names and our full official proper in the passport names?

@ sparty. relax as you have declared you will remove pictures at peoples requests.

@Foxy&gideon - I don't think there's a problem at all with TT or any of the TT related sites with photo's on them.

What i was pointing out was just the general idea that when a recruiter searches and finds such foto's conected to a name it aint good at all.

@ vdb. yep i agree to that!
(must remember to remove the 'king gideon dong' pictures from my personal web site!)

@VDB, yeah obviously its not good chat if that happens. Best not post your name with any piccies on the net then.

I wouldn't worry on the subject of recruitment. I remember interviewing a nice young lady years ago and my colleague hit her with the classic:

"Tell us a joke" interview question (it was a sales job).

She looked kinda meek and said "Ohhhh I can only think of one but it is a bit rude"

No problem we say of course...at which point she then proceeded to tell us the kind of joke that would make a drunk irish navvy blush.

Needless to say she got the job on the spot. Any boss that would not recruit you on the basis of flashing at Oktoberfest is not the kinda person or firm you wanna work for in my humble opinion. Personally I would put it down as a bonus point at interview!

You say that, but...

My very first ex-boyfriend was not a flasher, he was a cartoonist. He drew a comic strip for the University paper that was incredibly rude. It was -ist in every sense of the word, sex-ist, rac-ist, but it was also often incredibly funny. All fun and games when you are 19.

Now he has a Ph.D. and has to raise money in the form of grants for his post-doctoral research. Well, people are a lot less likely to give you money when they do a quick trip to the internet and see what you did with your past, since they have to report back to the people who gave them the money.

Sure, a bit of flashing or bad publicity might not stop some people from hiring you, but it will stop others. Actions have consequences, and although we all have to be responsible for our own actions, it's one thing to flash a bunch of Italians quickly, it's another thing to have your actions captured on film and published for every idiot to see.

And I think that is the end of the story, was a legal discussion necessary??

sorry showen i disagree, we are all responsible for our actions be they in public, recorded on a photo or not. or do you propose that we all follow a double morality. (anyway if most other boses are like mein then they'll hire a girl who showed her tits because that usaly is the reason they give 'em a job anyway. )
showing your bum isn't a crime, it hurts nobody and we're all born with one. if its embarassing dont do it, dont get so drunk and lose control, staedy your beer consumption. personaly if i had a pair of tits i'd show all my mates.

gideon, it's never to late to get a pair of those. Long live modern technology

Gideon, I think the bigger crime is the publication without consent, not the flashing. And by the way, flashing your bits is a crime in lots of places.

@showem . you also should do it in a beer tent cos they throw you out...
@vdb . i would do it. but i know i'd just sit here all day and play with the buggers and never get any work done.

I play with my balls all day. Does this mean I'm gay?

There are always people taking pictures in clubs as well, and sometimes your face shows up at this site. Nobody asks you if they can put your picture on the site...

no my friend, it means your a guy. as playing with your balls is not top of the "things i do cos im female" list.

back to topic. for all conserned the laws were created befor ethe advent of digital cameras and the internet. they are about as enforceable as the neuerechtschreibung. technology has overtaken the judicary, its the same with fsk rules (censorship law here in germany). i can download hardcore porn from my computer, but if it were transmitted onto a 'television' its of to the courts for those concerned.

A french porn star uses my real name as her stage name...I wonder how that would help me with future employers if they goggled my name...

Usually when they take individual shots of people they give them a business card with the site details on it. This probably covers them in that they are providing information that the photos will be used on a website and thus giving you the opportunity to veto that if you wish.

@Bex, oh how I laughed when I twigged that one