Are Germans miserly?

My school just sent out the Christmas dinner invitations. It sure is a dinner with a difference!
The conditions are:
1. Bring your own grub.
2. 5 euros entrance fee!!!
3. To be held at the school premises!!!
I don't know whether to laugh or cry!
Only in Germany!

Yes, they are tight. It allows them to buy 6.3 litre Mercedes, and drive at warp 7 everywhere.

Next

Don't forget "Geiz ist geil"!!

lol, that's funny. €5 so that you can sit down and eat your own food that you brought with you. Wouldn't call them miserly if they are willing to pay for that!!

So you're saying in your opinion they should charge a lot more and do it at a decent restaurant? Or you're saying the school should have a budget for it and do it for free? (When I went to school, we never had school christmas dinners of any sort, so the idea of having one is already an improvement... )

I think the point is you shouldnt have to pay 5 euros to sit down and eat your own food..

Maybe they're using the 5 € to pay for beverages...?

I think the OP is a teacher at the school (at least that's how I understood her post), so that would be a "company" Christmas dinner (and a miserly one at that, I agree).

Or for somebody to prepare the tables and clean up afterwards?
Not sure either, and maybe it should be less than 5 Euros.

When I was in school (in D) we always did a Kuchenverkauf. parents bake cakes so the children can sell them in the school to raise money for school trips etc. Sometimes I thought it'd be easier to just give your child the money - you spend money on the ingredients, ielectricity to run the oven and then time as well. And most pieces of cake were sold for DM1.50 or whatever. If every parent had just given their child DM10 you would have been there as well. ...

Ok, that's a bit different then... But I guess the problem is simply that the school doesn't get a budget for that sort of thing. There isn't much the principal can do about that, can he? I work for a big corporate, and we do have an annual christmas dinner, but it's paid for by my boss out of her own pocket, because the company doesn't seem to see the need to budget for that sort of thing... So you could call my company miserly, but not my boss. Not sure what that sort of thing tells you about "Germans" being miserly or not...

This certainly sounds pretty miserly, but to proclaim that the whole of Germany is therefore stingy is a bit of a stretch. Many office workers receive considerable Christmas bonuses. In contrast, I worked as a temp in the business banking division of a major UK bank that shall remain nameless (clue: starts with "B" and ends in "arclays"). Only the creme de la creme of their staff worked here, none of them on less than £50k and most on much more. They were still expected to pay for hot drinks out of the machine. 20p they had to pay each time. 20p for a cup of tea.

At another bank (formed from a merger between the Alliance in Brighton and a building society based in Leicester), we were given a budget for Christmas dinner that amounted to around £17 per person, which doesn't go very far in London in December. We were told that we could eat whatever we wanted, er, as long as it came to less than £17 and, um, you'll have to pay for your drinks yourself. Merry Christmas to you too, you capitalist pigs.

20p is nothing. We are made to pay 66 cents for a black coffee. and our company doesn't give us any budget for an xmas party. we have to pay for it ourselves.

At my work here (in the UK) we get an all-staff X-mas party with dry sandwiches, drinks and a band. The departments usually do something as well, but the staff have to pay for it.

At MunichRe, they have a totally free canteen (not for the x-mas lunch, I mean all year round). But if you want a tea or coffee after lunch, you gotta be prepared to pay 10 cents for that. Beats me why they do that...

And another example of "largesse": At Allianz HQ, they offer a "christmas lunch" in the canteen on a fixed date a few days before x-mas. They offer it for 2,50 € and say it is a special fringe benefit, because normally, they would charge around 8 € for the special menu they offer on that day. No idea why they don't simply give it away for free on that day, considering that it's supposed to be a special treat for the employees...

Are Germans miserly? No. It's a stupid generalization. I work for a wonderful employer who is extraordinarily generous with his staff. I've never been treated so well at any company in North America. Yes, it's odd that you'd be charged AND asked to bring your own food. But it's your employer, not "Germans".

Well, I still remember the house-warming party held by two Americans in Munich who invited people and then asked all the guests to bring both something to eat and to drink. At least they didn't charge admission.

I don't think it's a stupid generalisation as you say, Gill. This is an extreme and almost amusing example but I have quite a few examples of German stinginess. For example, when I used to date guys here they were usually reluctant to pay for me (I am talking about coffee not a four course banquet at a posh restaurant) and nearly always had to go Dutch and on one or two occasions ended up paying for my date! *sigh* I can't say I wasn't warned about the behaviour here...
Re the trainer's Xmas dinner; the 5 euros is apparently for the cheap wine they are going to supply:)

Ok, I've been out of the dating scene for a while, but do women really expect men to pay for their nights out nowadays? I never did. Nice if it happened, but defintely not a requirement. I'd be more likely to think the one who expects a free meal all the time to be the stingy one.

Well, my Director of Studies made an interesting point. He said that if the school made a Christmas dinner for its trainers then they could say (btw we are all selb standig) that they were employed by the school and not selbstandig. If that could be proved in court then the school would have to pay us health insurance and other things and other rights flowing from us being employees.

Well if you're freelance then it's tax deductible anyway. Give them €10 and tell them to get some more expensive wine and to give you a receipt.

are germans miserly?

yes, some of them. maybe loads of them. but that doesn't seem to be the topic here, but:

dear op,

if you think it'll be fun: go, bring food, pay 5 euro, drinks are free, enjoy.

if you can meet your colleagues every day in a more relaxed scenario: go, order food, pay 10 euro plus drinks, enjoy.

if you are not happy with either: stay home, complain on internet forum.

sorted.

When I started my job, I went into the tea room to have a cup of tea. Of which there was none. No tea, no coffee, no sugar, no milk, unless you brought your own. And no Christmas party coming up. I thought the company was the stingiest I'd ever seen in my life - but I've since been told that even such small amenities as tea and coffee are seen as a 'fringe benefit' and are taxed. I don't know if this is true or not, but it would make sense.

I support the theory that the €5 is meant for surplus electricity, cleaning etc. Then again €5 can get you a decent bottle of wine at Aldi. Also, bringing your own food doesn't mean you eat your own food; this could be a potluck dinner with a chance to sample someone else's specialities. When we had a dance at my brother's high school in California we not only paid admission but had to set up the tables and chairs and clean up at the end of the evening as well. Oh, and pay for our food and drink, and this wasn't a fund-raiser.

Where I work here in Glasgow, you can either bring your own tea/coffee/milk and use the company-provided hot & cold water and fridge or buy coffee/tea from the cantine. Small Cappuccino costs £1.35 and small tea £0.35.

Except for one company I worked for where tea/coffee was free, it was always like the above regardless if UK or D.

@RTW
thats the funniest thing Ive read on here in a long time.

the germans are tight, just ask any waiter or waitress

you could not be even more wrong and it's kind of sad how you make it sounds all negative. it's just different. it has never crossed my mind that it would have to do with money.
it is pretty much normal to bring food to a party. it's not about the money but about contributing something to the group/community.

Germans aren't the only ones who don't pay for a womans drink on the first date either, so there are other nationalities *ahem--British--and you know who you are!* who can potentially be miserly on a first date!

Bloody hell I hope not, the place I'm at provides free coffee, fruit juices,mineral water, apples and bananas.

Who pays on a date is cultural and nothing to do with being stingy. Germans just don't do that. Don't tip much in restaurants either because tip is included in the price.

Last German company I worked for also had free (terrible) coffee, Bionade, cola,mineral water, apples and bananas. I still didn't like it as well as I liked the place where we paid 80 cents for a cappuccino.

In these days of equality where we need to be macho, sensitive, strong, able to listen etc.. blah blah why do we always have to pay for the drinks etc... theres ALOT of tight women who always expect a free ride..

us men get a raw deal

I work for a German/American company, and though you might hear me complain about my salary on a regular basis, I never saw a company in the US or England that provided free soft drinks, juice, cappuccinos and fresh fruit every day the way mine does here. I also get a free lunch and Sekt on a regular basis from little catered parties the company throws for us and leftovers from guest catering. So they're not cheap about the small things, at least.
Our office in London only has crappy powdered coffee, makes everyone work in cubicles and locks their workers in as well.

I like SmallTownBoy's idea:)
I then asked my DOS (Director of Studies) yesterday how come we had pastries and other refreshments at the last trainers meeting and he said he had bought them himself!!! Possibly he claimed them off tax as you said but still it makes the company look tightfisted.
Dimmer: I am quite capable of sorting out such a simple situation myself:) I just wanted other expats' takes on this.
I think that a Bring Your Own Refreshments set up is ok in certain situations but not at the time of year where nearly all schools I have worked for have taken us out.
I worked for a large school a couple of years or so ago in Rome and they took us out to a restaurant. It wasn't the Ritz but at least a change of ambience made us all feel festive. I think one of the worst things in this scenario is that we have to have the Christmas do in a small classroom!
Of course, having had my bitch about it all (!) I will go along and wish my colleagues regards of the season!
Goodness knows what I will decide to bring though...not being the best of cooks...

Tax laws in Italy may be different.

It's very important when comparing company stuff like this to consider the freelancing aspect very different, as your Director of Studies mentioned. Who is presumably also German and the fellow who paid for your pastries out of his own pocket. Sounds like he would have been the person to ask about this in the first place as he's given you the real scoop.

Bread and rucola salad. Dead easy: Wash and slice the rucola, slice and dice a couple of tomatoes (removing the seeds), dice a couple of onions, mix all in a large bowl. Mix vinegar, salt, herbs (oregano, basil, tarragon) and olive oil, dribble over the salad. Cube some ciabatta* and toss with the salad. It's red and green like Christmas and red, green and white like Italy.
*Works best with day-old bread, not fresh
EDIT: I have been derided in a PM. I suppose arugula is what I meant but seriously, would you eat anything that sounds like a vampire's term of endearment before s/he hits your juglar?

Well I love the sound of Sarabyrd's recipe:) I am a rubbish cook though and can't even guarantee to make a good job of a salad:)
Gen; My Director of Studies is AMERICAN!
Yes of course tax laws seem to be very different here and particularly re freelancers which I believe is a real headache. My DOS told me that if you receive more than 4/17 of your income from one source, you can hold him to be your employer and I am sure this is a big headache for language schools.
I am guilty of widening the scope of this thread too much (eg dating etiquette has nothing to do with the way companies behave) but have to say that being a freelancer here is just too much of a headache unless you really earn a decent income on a reasonably stable basis.

I'm ot sure about the Britis but paying for an Australian woman's drink (on any date) is generally regarded as sexist, nothing to do with being a tightarse. I don't think German women expect it either, except maybe ossis.

I'm a woman and I would never expect to have things paid for me - half and half it should be. After all, we are meant to be equal.

unless someone insists on paying - but then i think you should recipricate.

Are Germans miserly? Hmmm, well the people who rented this house before us were German and when they were moving out they stripped the place bare (which I understand is the done thing here), unable to wrestle one roller blind from it's holding they cut off the material rather than let us get the good of it. I think that counts as miserly...

Why do you put up with it?

There are many women who don't expect a "free meal." (I tongue-lash any woman who talks about a date that way.)

If a man initiated a date and it goes really badly, I generally cut it short but pay for both. Germans tend to take this as a signal things went well. Now I don't have time for dating, other than the occasional blindsided-date, but if I did, it probably wouldn't involve Germans. I feel like they expect women to pay ALL the time, and they get cranky about inexpensive fun.

My xFIL thought I was stingy 'cause I didn't buy my ex a Haus. That's what the women in their family do.

I don't expect to be paid for when I go out with a guy. However, I find the principle nice that, one time he pays, the next time me and so on. It takes away that awkwardness of dividing up the bill at the end of the evening and gives the nice feeling of one person treating the other to something (regardless of the fact that the next time the other person should pay).
I don't see what could be wrong with that...

On the other hand (not necessarily related to dating, but more general) I also apply this prinicipal to general life. The same as if somebody did something nice for me, I would try to make sure that I do something nice back for them. The majority of my German acquaintances seem completely oblivious to this basic sense of manners, and are simply happy to take and take and take without ever doing or giving anything in return.

**Disclaimer** Of course it is not my opinion that every German is like this, nor am I trying to tar all Germans with this brush. I am just commenting from my experience as a whole.

Same here. At some point I tried directly requesting help in return (w/o calling it quid pro quo - just trying to get some fairness) and was amazed at how fast and with how little empathy I was shot down, for things far less significant than I'd done for them in the past.

I used to think that this was b/c they have these clique systems, within which I presumed balance existed. Then that theory was busted.

In Aristotle's treatises on virtue, ethics etc, he explored gratefulness and whether gratefulness should be in proportion to the benefit to receiver or to the cost to the giver. In my experience, North Americans who've received a thing or benefit generally "err" on the side of inflating both the benefit to them and the cost/effort to the giver. In my experience in Germany, generally I've observed that Germans receiving DEflate both their own benefit AND the cost or effort of the person giving/providing.

This has bothered me enough that I've had conversations with some of the more self-aware Germans I know:

One German told me the fear of not being able to repay makes it better to downplay the benefit and sacrifice to something manageable.

Someone else said that she's noticed that she feels the compulsion to treat someone badly when they show vulnerability. Being generous just makes people look stupid to her. Even though she experienced life in the states and in her head prefers the system of everyone contributing, she says she slips quickly into feeling on some gut level that people who are that open deserve to be taken advantage of.

Any other theories on why this is?

By nature and upbringing, I'm hugely generous. There's the sense that there's plenty for everyone, and if we team up, there'll be even more. Living in Germany has forced me to put a lid on this. Sad, really.

The average German wouldnt spend christmas...we dont need to discus this for hours !!

Just look at the tips they pay in restaurants or ask anyone who works in an irish bar.

Then again the 'insel affens' are the clowns for blowing hard earned cash !!

Haha, Eagle, you're from Cavan for Christ's sake! The place where a man learns at an early age to peel an orange in his pocket for fear of having to share it with someone.

Paddy Reilly was peeling wall paper off the wall in his home in Ballyjamesduff when Hughie Smith arrived to visit.

"Ah Paddy, Decoratin' agin?"

"No" says Paddy, "I'm movin' out to a new house in Virginia"

True enough lad...but how many times did we pick up tabs in bars for 'Germans' who left certain events and never paid for their beers...???

I will again say 'the avergage German would not spend Christams' and will tell it to their faces. No issue on that.

Ever see a german buy their round?

Eagle, most of the occasions on which I picked up other peoples tabs they were expats just like you and me. Well, obviously not as good looking and fabulously wealthy as you and me, but expats nonetheless. As to rounds, come on lad, you know well that we generally don't do rounds here, regardless of which nationalities are involved.

Hmmmmm no answer on that !! you win !!

Still I stand by me comment, the avergage German has deep pockets !!!

off me soapbox...

One more for ya, Eagle...

Mickey Reilly from Cavan town stood up Saturday night after the news and weather. "Right missus, get your coat" he shouted to the wife.

"Great" she shrieked, "are we goin' out?"

"No you're not! I'm going into McBrides for a pint and i'm turnin' the heating off!"

The Turks (in Turkey) call reluctant givers 'German style.':)))