Why does my professor ignore me?

I am an American who has studied at a German university for six years and am now finishing my degree. In the last few years, I have had quite a bit of contact with a professor who is also my thesis advisor. We have met in his office dozens of times, and he seems to enjoy talking for hours on end. Sometimes the conversation even drifts onto more personal topics, which doesn't bother me.

He was also kind enough to write me a recommendation which helped me to get a position at another nearby university that I will begin in January. He seems to take quite an active interest in my career here, and we will most likely continue to have occassional contact after I begin the new job.

What disturbs me is that last night when we -- by chance -- were both at a lecture outside of the university, I got the feeling he snubbed me. This has happened once or twice before and is starting to make me wonder if there is some social rule here that I am not aware of.

As we have spent so much time together, and had obviously seen each other there in the small group of around twenty people, I felt it would be appropriate to very briefly greet him before leaving, but he basically turned his back toward my wife and I as we were walking toward him, so after waiting for a moment to try to get his attention, I began to feel like an idiot and just left without saying anything.

My German wife has the theory that he is "testing me". That is, that he wanted me to interrupt his conversation with the guest lecturer just to say, "Hello, I'm here." I really doubt that, and I would have felt like an asshole doing it.

Anyway, although I know there is a hierarchy at any university, has anyone else had an experience like this? My prof was friendliness in person last week in his office when he was asking me to do him the "favor" of proof-reading a rather long paper that a colleague and he were writing in English. Is there some rule that students do not ever greet or acknowledge professors in settings outside the university where others are present no matter what their relationship at the university is like?

Your profile doesn't list a country of origin, but as an American I have the impression that in general Germans distinguish more sharply between their professional and personal/social lives than folks in the States do. You have known the professor in a professional context but then enexpectedly saw him elsewhere. I wouldn't take it personally.

Perhaps your professor was too absorbed in the conversation with the guest lecturer to really notice you. I also think that the ratio students:lecturers is higher at German unis compared to the US, hence less personal contact. There are many students who want their attention, and they only have so much time to give lectures, do research and, not to forget, cope with bureaucracy. That's also why they have fixed hours for consultation.

Easy answer: He is there to make contacts and increase his standing amongst colleagues, not talk to one of his students that he sees regularly. You are low on the totem pole when it comes to profession related socializing.

I hope you don’t have to get out the knee pads.

Eurovol gave you the condensed version and beat me to saying:

Omigod - your wife is very, very wrong. You read the situation correctly. This is a hierarchy thing, but situational, not the hard-and-fast "never outside the uni" rule you're looking for.

In the uni, your professor is in the 'power position' and can afford to be chummy with you.

At this outside lecture, he was surrounded by his peers and superiors and was likely in a lower position than the guest speaker. Displaying association with anyone lower on the totem pole would have discounted his own (probably shaky) importance in the social dynamic at the lecture. Two sentences with you could keep him from being invited to join someone higher for drinks afterward. It's nothing against you; his body language was defensive, b/c closer contact w/ you would have endangered his standing.

This all sounds really bitter, but it's the reality in Germany. Your wife's absolutely incorrect read of the situation - and potentially disastrous suggestion for handling it - does not bode well for your career. Her instincts for how to behave, dress etc are likely not an asset to your advancement. Compare what she wore to this lecture to what your prof's wife was wearing. And don't let her tell you it doesn't matter.

Of course you love your wife, and she doesn't want to stand in the way of your success, so if possible, send her to etiquette classes and see if she can find a mentor who understands things and can shape her up a bit. This is tough, b/c "erzieherische Massnahmen" for someone from a "lesser" background is almost universally distasteful. Until you find a solution, she should not accompany you to events of professional interest for you.

And by golly, get your coaching elsewhere. You've reached the point at which your read on a situation is better than that of your native partner. I know that pain and disappointment. My xH was able to help me adapt to a certain point (e.g. on the way out the door to an event I'd thought was casual and for which I'd dressed in a fine cardigan, nice trousers and heels: "Moll, you'll probably feel more comfortable with the other women if you switch the cardigan for a jacket or the trousers for a skirt") but outside of their own relatively narrow realms, most Germans don't have a lot of experience reading and implementing rules of interaction for other social groups.

I'm in no way supporting the hierarchy. My measures sound draconian, but that's the reality of the professional path you've chosen.

I think you're right, but I think having him pretty much literally give me the cold shoulder is overdoing it. That's why I'm wondering if it's a real unwritten "rule" of German university culture that I'm missing.

I guess I just think giving someone you know a simple nod and "good evening" is a much more pleasant alternative to the akwardness of completely ignoring a person that you know well and will continue to have contact with in the future. Obviously, the kind of politeness I was taught growing up, such as greeting those you know, has no place here.

Now, the next time we see each other when other colleagues are present, I'll know walking around acting like we don't know each other is the appropriate thing to do.

I'm totally speechless. Is my humour, irony and sarcasm detector not operating today, or are you being serious?

When he turned his back to you, you should have tapped his shoulder and said: How you doin' old man? So you could understand what the real problem is

Maybe he was simply too absorbed in the conversation to notice you, or thought he needn't bother?
There's no reason for you to change your behavior, and I think there's no reason why you should worry.
Just behave naturally, the whole thing is no big deal.

No. That would have demonstrated openness, to which he might fear you could respond by bringing your non-fit wife over for further contact. Once he knows you know and play by the rules, he'll feel less threatened, and you'll get the nod and smile.


Wrong again. Every situation is different. Keep following your read of his body language ... and try to disengage from some of your American ideas of polite behavior. What we learned as politeness is based on a fundamental security with ourselves that most Germans will never have.

Interesting thoughts about invisible barriers and unwritten rules by MollyB; but the dresscode thing varies a lot. What you describe, MollyB, could apply to law students, but between for example sociologists, you can easily be overdressed.

EDIT: Ben_Gunn, I also think you're reading too much into this incident; the professor certainly appreciates your contributions as a student, he might just keep students at a distance.

I wouldn't call this "advice" draconian, I would call it condescending to say the least. I'd call it lots of other things, too, but I think I'll keep them to myself.

Btw, which exact academic field are you in? Makes a difference to the sort of people you tend to meet, and how they behave...

Did I miss something? How do we know what his wife was wearing, or indeed anything else about her? I agree her assessment was probably wrong of this particular situation but how can anyone conclude anything about anyone from one solitary statement? Let alone how they are dressed or what socio-economic background they come from.

If so, that makes two of us, but I rather think she was being serious.

In any case, I would be very surprised if the wife's wardrobe has any effect whatsoever on an academic career in Germany...

Politeness (the kind we know) is replaced by formality in Germany. Depending on the situation, I throw my Ami-ness right into the mix, but I would not have interrupted anyone talking to the guest speaker. Instead, I would ease myself into the conversation with the guest speaker because that is the person who is the focal point and the person you would have been interrupting in order to simply say "howdy" to your adviser.

Agree with Eurovol. Or simply leave and forget about it, because your professor is highly unlikely to assign any importance to whatever you did that evening.

Thanks for taking the time to give me the expanded version. It makes a lot of sense, and it takes care of some of the inconsistencies that were bothering me, ie when running into this same professor on the train, he was just as "chummy" as always, but obviously, there were no other colleagues present.

I don't think he endangers his social position at such events by associating with anyone below him on the totem pole, though, because he had no problem welcoming a colleague from the same institute (not a prof, though, so definitely lower in standing than he is) into the circle. I think you're reasoning is 90% correct, but it's just the disgusting students they don't want to be seen associating with.

I know what you're saying, though, about relying on German partners to always read situations simply because we're in Germany. Normally, my wife is fine socially, so I don't think she needs any etiquette schooling just yet, but she does occassionally come out with these explanations that baffle me. Once I complained that a certain shopkeeper was always rude to me, and she theorized that it was the way I was dressed or that I didn't ask for what I wanted in the correct way. Apparently, if you want tea from a tea shop in Germany, you first tell the person behind the counter, "I would like some tea," so that they can then ask you "What kind would you like?" Then you tell them the sort you would like, then you have to wait for them to ask you how much. My way of walking into the store and saying, "I'd like 250g of Earl Grey broken." is not done in Germany, otherwise you're given rude looks and strangely minimal eye contact. As an experiment, I actually made sure to wear "nicer" clothes a couple of times when going into the same shop and to try her way of asking for things. Guess what? The owner's just a weird, rude old fucker, plain and simple.

As far as the hierarchy in my chosen career path goes, I am fine with it, as long as I get to know the rules, too. I don't appreciate having to discover them mainly by guesswork along the way in these akward situations.

I guess I just hate feeling like a tool, good enough to read through page after page of his colleague's crap English, since he helped me out getting a good job, but not good enough for a nod when someone that he's breaking out the kneepads for is present. Oh well, you're right, such is life in the German university setting.

Mathematics, which is usually -- contrary to what you might think -- a more friendly informal group, probably because it's a smaller group than in many other academic fields.

BG, although what you have experienced is annoying, it is apparently a dynamic that is found across many national cultures when it comes to academia. Be glad you missed out on the US experience, where in some cases, (younger) students are viewed as a "fringe benefit" of a professorship.

BG, you probably just begin to learn about the downsides of this academic microcosmos. People in the scientific community are rivals, but they also depend on each other for their career advancement. From what I saw as a student, there's a superficial friendliness between people in one department (well, not always, as your story shows), but secretely they hate each other. Is it that different elsewhere? The genre of campus novels must be there for a reason.

Just as an aside, my wife was the only wife/partner there -- at least among those present that I knew.

I wouldn't say we were dressed badly, just normal day-to-day jeans and a sweater (no holes in either) that 90% of the other people there were wearing too.

Okay, I can see now I'm overthinking this. I thought maybe there was something inherently German about this that I was missing, but it's just old professors being old professors, which is the same anywhere in the western world.

And my wife is quite fit, definitely not non-fit. I doubt the whole thing had anything to do with her anyway.

maybe staying alone for too many years in a desrted island negatively affected your social skills?

I just wanted to ask him if he had any cheese for God's sake. Is that so terrible?

Professor or not, there's no excuse for this ignorant behaviour... he wipes his arse like the rest of us!

Btw, this story about the tea shop makes no sense, as in: I totally disagree that this is how you have to behave.
IMHO, your wife's theories do seem to be a bit outlandish at times...

I didn't say she should wear a suit and heels, just that clothing as signal of 'Zugehoerigkeit' matters and that she probably got it wrong. Sociologists have their own codes. Jeans are fine in many groups - but don't think there aren't rules for how they're worn.

Turns out his wife shouldn't have been there at all.


Never heard of that. I do say 'guten Tag' or whatever, but haven't had problems asking directly for what I'd like. One woman gave me grief for requesting tea that was "too expensive." She was just weird. I let the owner know, and now I don't go in if I see that one woman on duty. Even stopping in on my way home from a long run, I've been sold tea in snotty shops with a smile.


See if you can find another anglo somewhere, preferably in math, probably at another uni, who's ahead of you in the German uni system.


What Conquistador said.


Fit-ness, not physical fitness. She certainly wasn't an asset. As the only partner there: she didn't fit. She had no feel for the hierarchy: that didn't fit. Her clothing fit her, but wasn't "fit" in terms of tastefully playing up appeal and thus your rank. (Once I 'got' the rules in one of UnGroom's antiquated clubs, people above his usual range did approach us and issue invitations his family hadn't previously received. I'm not special in any way and I despised the charades - but if you're forced to play a game, then at least have fun and screw with those taking it seriously.) I'm sure your Frau Gemahlin is lovely and generally well-mannered, but wives really and truly do influence the careers of academics here. At least in math, there's somewhat more weight given to the merits of your work. Yet if you're going for Vollprofessor, she =will= need to pull her weight. Or find a way of not playing that makes her look like an active non-player.

Disagree. I've spent quite a long time on university faculty, and have observed the progress of a substantial number of people on their way to professorship (both in business science and in economics). It does not seem to me that your spouse and her behavior matters to any significant degree.
(Edit: Of course it may hurt if she is a *major* embarrassment. What I mean is that anything within normal limits, including a somewhat limited grasp of the intricacies of social dynamics, doesn't seem to make a difference IMHO.)

I think so too. I guess my point is more that the danger in being a foreigner is that you can fall into the trap of seeing any native as an "expert" in their culture.

My wife doesn't have a lot of these theories, though, they ususally come as a result of me asking why someone (a German) has behaved in a certain way that I find strange or unpleasant. She wanted to tell me that the same rules as in the tea shop applied to other businesses in Germany, too, such as "Eis Dealer". So if you go to get a scoop of ice cream, you first say "I would like some ice cream," or "I would like two scoops." But then wait for them to ask you which kind. The reasons for this strange system are apparently many:

1) The people working at these businesses ask customers the same questions (most likely in the same order) all day every day, so sudden departures from the pattern cause confusion

2) Giving someone more than one piece of information at once regarding the product(s) you would like is too much information for them to process at once, e.g. Telling the person working the counter in a tea store "I would like 250g of tea." is alright, but not "I would like 250g of Earl Grey."

3) Letting the store employee ask you in a series of questions the details of your purchase is a way for them to show their knowledge.

Apparently, in Germany no one asks for something - say a scoop of ice cream - by saying, "Eine Kugel Schoko hätte ich gern." Placing the item you would like at the beginning of the sentence is once again too much information to soon for the employee. You need to prepare them for details coming later in the sentence by beginning the sentence with "Ich hätte gern..." This gives them a chance to tune in first, and prepare themselves for the information to come -- i.e. the flavor you would like.

Feel free to say it's crazy. I already know.

"Eine Kugel Schoko hätte ich gerne" sounds unusual, normal grammar would be "Ich hätte gerne eine Kugel Schokolade" (Subject comes first, object later). In English, you don't say "A scoop of chocolate flavor I would like to have" either, right? But "Eine Kugel Schoko bitte" is totally normal, and also places the item at the beginning.

LOL, ben_gunn, you seem to think of shop assistants as generally intellectually challenged people.

Since German sentence structure isn't strict like the English S-P-O, you can say both, depending on what you want to emphasise. Has to do with the "Thema-Rhema" (don't know the English word) relation between the information given in one sentence. "Thema" is the known, expected bit of information (ich hätte gerne ...), and "Rhema" the new, more important information (eine Kugel Schoko).

Umm, English and German are somewhat different languages, with German being quite flexible in the order of subject and object. "Eine Kugel Schoko hätte ich gerne" is perfectly normal usage.

Still, it sounds unusual to me. At least I wouldn't normally say it in that way, even if strictly speaking it's correct usage of the language. Hmmm, maybe it's because I subconsciously want to please the German shopkeepers...

I have definitely never walked into an ice cream place and just said "Ich hätte gern ein Eis". I always ask for what I want straight away (e.g. "2 Kugel Vanille im Becher bitte"), and have never experienced even the slightest bit of confusion on the part of the waitress/ shopkeeper

If you normally have a good, chummy relationship with your professor, why don't you ask him? You're dealing with a cultural difference here, so if he's a good bloke, like you say, he should explain it to you.

I disagree with Hazza. I think it would be viewed as a petty topic by the professor. Why possibly antagonize him? You don't know him on a personal enough level, IMHO, to bring stuff up like that with him, plus you still need him as a professional reference.

Sounds like we actually agree and that I've seen too many situations outside normal limits. The concrete situations where I've observed this are in art history, in medicine and in law.

Add another to the list that is now going to ignore you.

Good grief - maybe he just didn't want to get into a long chummy conversation with you as he normally does (but would have been out of place in this setting) and was afraid you would start one. So he just decided to avoid the situation by pretending not to see you rather than worry that you might think this was the place for a chummy convo or he would have to stop you from a chummy convo. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Reading my last post, I think I should have been a little clearer in my sarcasm. I meant, I know these theories of how to order or ask for things in Germany are crazy. I cheerfully continue to tell ice cream shops here the flavor I would like at the beginning of my sentences, and have never had a problem except for one confusing incident, but it turned out the woman behind the counter was Italian and hardly spoke German anyway, so I don't count that.

I just had a meeting with the professor (nothing to do with the other "incident") and he had apparently removed the stick from his ass some time between last night and this afternoon, since he was all smiles again. Even wanted to chat about the guest speaker from last night and mentioned that he saw me there, so I guess my lesson out of all this is pretty much what MollyB is saying: when no one of consequence is watching, it's alright to speak with him, when other "important" people are present, act like I don't know him.

@MollyB - It was fine for my wife to be there. It was an event that was open to the public, and there were many people there dressed much less informally than we were.

@Conq - yeah, I think you're right. I'm just going to chalk it up to experience and drop it. I am going to try to find someone here who's worked at the University for a while and can explain some of these not-so-obvious rules to me so that I don't end up looking like such an ass again.

To beat a dead horse: keep in mind that this has nothing to do with you. And do experiment carefully with stepping up his tolerance for contact with you when "important" people are present. You'll get insights into various little things you can do that makes him look good, that are acceptable in given situations, and with time I really bet he'll open up a bit. All the hierarchy rules will still be in place - you'll just be better at tricking them out.


Technically, yes. Do you really not get that :
1) your appearance in duo with another person of your rank (regardless of relation - it could have been another student) increased his resistance to contact with you
2) "socially acceptable" attire does not equal attire that makes one non-threatening or attractive to those a rank higher
3) your wife's suggestion indicates she was probably not in tune with the hierarchy games being played, which admits suspicion that she was not sending signals that she really belonged there

It's not against you or your wife. Your professor sounds standard-issue Insecure. You seem like a great guy, your wife seems like a lot of fun (and to her credit seems to have figured out how Grouchy Tea Guy likes to be treated) and I'd find it a pity for you to feel you have the choice between kneepads and knee bandages.

Unbelievable... Who the hell are we dealing with here, the QUEEN? He's a b****y professor and they're two-a-penny here in Germany anyway.

While I'd say that MollyB is correct in her assessment that a typical professor would tend to gravitate towards other professors, keynote speakers or whoever is of equal or higher rank in a "formal situation", I definitely disagree on the prescription: I don't see why Ben and his wife need to worry about this and why they should try to subtly influence the professor's perception of them. As long as they keep in mind that the professor is more senior and therefore gets to set the basic rules of their social interaction (as is always the case in all hierarchies, anywhere in the world), there's nothing they need to do. Just relax and take it easy.

I don't think so. I use the latter approach when shopping for tea, and the staff at my local tea store seems to be quite fond of me.

Are you sure your name isn't ben_dover and he took a bit of a shine to you, then took the hump when he saw the missus?

LOL
No! Although that would explain so much

BQ, I suggest you talk to a student counsellor or whoever has the title at the uni. that fits well to give you answers. Tell them you have learnt a great deal about Math but one thing is missing... I would like to understand more of the social and unwriten rules ... You will need these rules in the future as long as you stay in your profession and if you move into other professions.

Maybe he is exhausted from being compulsively PC nice to foreigners.