The "marital status" question at job interviews

I think this is a great law in Germany that protects women's job so they could stay at home with their children for three years and still have job security. If this law was in the states I would have children now, instead I chose a career as I could not fathom sending my under age three child to daycare so I could return to work when my few months of maternity leave were over. I would have love to been home for three years. Child experts say birth to three are the most important formative years in a child's development and mother and child bonding is very strong at this age.

True for me as well. I would probably still be floating along in my old position otherwise as well. I could never fathom staying locked away for three years going to mother-kid groups and whatnot, so I had to prove - to myself, my family, my company - that I could do it.

Best thing that ever happened to my career was having kids. Best thing that ever happened to me as a whole, actually.

Look, DanH might not have said things in a warm-fuzzy way, but he didn't say that she should be shot if she sprogged. I'm presuming she's German and/or that she's being hired under German law. You said that you find the 3 years leave unacceptable. Well, that's the environment in which Dan's company is operating: in Germany, women very often take 3 years and do NOT play loyal/fair. It's a culture that's developed over time, and I doubt most employers know how to retain and maximize their return from good women. Sure, Dan could be a little more solution-oriented and push his team to develop mechanisms for ensuring that breeders contribute, but ... YOU try living in Germany without an exit in sight. I see the proactive, economically-sound actions his company could take to make this work, yet I'm tempted to say that his best shot is probably to shake up her marriage and trick her into spending so much time with his kids that she develops an allergy against reproducing.

It's the same kind of screwed dynamic in man-woman relationships here. Women are taken for granted, women expect special favors, man/employer isn't getting money's worth, man/employer treats woman worse, woman feels maltreated, woman gets more expensive, man/employer is getting less for money. Why hire/marry at all? It only works for women who're willing to keep themselves small, and for men/employers who're satisfied with ultimately being alone and not knowing who they can count on. Vicious cycle.


So's father-child bonding. Plus, if there were this law in the states, the work environment would be just as hostile for women as it is in Germany. U.S. employers have a long way to go, but making a buck requires attracting and retaining good people, regardless of gender. Women have more freedom when employers are free to find their own personnel solutions. "Mutterschutz" is frauenfeindlich. Got it?

Another thought - Dan's kind of short-sighted if he thinks that 4-5 years commitment is enough. Let's say she goes soft after 5 years. He thinks he's gotten his money's worth. I say his firm still takes a hit, given the significant loss of seldom-quantified contribution of an employee who switches firms but remains in the workforce. Referrals, hiring recommendations, networking, reputation. All down the drain, when played by German rules.

Oh, and telling clients/employers one isn't planning to harvest any crotch nuggets backfires: you get outed as an infertile lesbian man-hating monster, whether or not that's relevant.

I think it's a stupid law. If you want to pop out kids and stay home for 3 years, then work your butt off in the time leading up to the maternity leave and then the company will probably hire you back after this time.
During these three years, you are not being paid by the company, nor are 1/2 of the insurance premiums being paid. I don't see what the advantage for women is here? I only see disadvantages for other women and companies that hire these women.

If you were a good employee before maternity leave and you want to take 3 years off, then do that and probably...maybe, when you are ready to go back to work in 3 years (or more), the company will remember this and hire you back in.

I have lots more reasons why this is a stupid law but, I'm trying to work here so I can get ahead in my career so that, if I ever do have children, I will not take 3 years or even 6 months off - I will be right back at work as soon as possible. I know this about myself so do not try to argue with me and point out that I am a horrible person because I would put a baby in childcare while I work.

Oh - wicked woman thinks she should work! Ach! The world as we know it is going to end! The baby will grow up to be a social misfit! It might even learn to make it's own bed before it moves out of the house!

Actually, there are more working women (in Munich at least) that it seems, the old "Kinder, Küche, Kirche" thing is really a facade maintained by the old guard and the guilt trips they put on women just a last ditch attempt to keep the status quo.

I agree that the law is overblown - yes, there should be some protection for moms and kids, but a three year break is a joke.

Seriously Dude. Where do you come up with this over-wrought B.S.? Removes her existence as a productive human? I'm deplorable? Inhuman? Want her to get Cervical cancer? I mean, where do you come up with this stuff? I've never remotely even insinuated any of these things. I simply want our new hire to give us a solid 3-4 years service so it will have been worth it to hire her over five other well-qulified candidates for a good-paying city job. I'm not sure why you find this outrageous. After 3-4 years she can have a dozen kids as far as I'm concerned.

Yes I can sympathise with that. In addition the problem say five years ago when I was only 25 was that I was still quite young. It is not easy for a woman at any age sometimes

That would make a good TV hidden camera joke sketch a women pretending she is 8 months pregnant and going for job interviews in Germany. Also have her smoking cigars during the interview. Would be interesting to see the interviewers' reactions.

The purpose of a job interview for the employer and the applicant is to get as much information as possible in a short time in order to be able to make an important decision. So to an extent, the applicant, who is in a more passive role, has to expect personal questions. I would try to answer them calmly without saying anything disadvantageous with regard to future plans. I mean, no one can be completely sure about what will be in 2 or 3 years anyway.

For a male applicant, being married or having children will probably be seen as positive; you're less likely to be a job-hopper. For a female applicant there is no good answer.

There has been a strict anti-discrimination law in vigor since August 2006, and yet employers still mention desired age spans in job ads, expect a picture along with the CV and ask personal or gender specific questions in the interview. But I wonder – in countries where these things are not done, like the US, don't employers also decide on whom they are going to hire along their criterias, which can be discriminatory, only in a less obvious way.

The possibility of taking a 3 year maternity leave is generally seen as a positive thing in Germany, although it does disencourage employers to take on women of child-bearing age. If in the US this long maternity leave doesn't exist, there's still the issue of employees who return to work and need part-time workplaces. Or do most of them return to full-time soon after giving birth, and how do they manage?

In the U.S., you have choices when you have children. Some women go directly back to work after 6 weeks, 8 weeks, or whatever. The point is, if you want to keep your job, then you work something out with the employer that works for everyone (employer and employee) - ie work from home, work only 5 hours a day, whatever.

They manage by putting the child in daycare. I have a friend who has two kids in daycare and both went when they were 3 months old. Mom left early in the morning for work (she was there at 7 am) and Dad dropped the kids off at daycare when he went (around 9). Mom gets out at 3 and picks up the kids and Dad comes home a bit later. They have 6 hours in day care and while they are there they are playing age appropriate games and doing age apprpriate crafts with the other kids and the day care workers. Hmmm, do you think it's better if the mother stays home all day and is perhaps only focusing on her kids for 2 hours of the day while the rest of the time she runs errands, and does housework (cleaning, laundry, cooking, etc)? Which is better?

One thing my company is great for is job sharing. If you offer people a flexible return to work, they often take it, come in say half the week insteda of the full week. Yes you need 2 people instead instead of one, but it's better than a gap, and I've seen it work well many times. There are many working mothers in our company with years of experience who contribute less in terms of time, but are still very valuable, they share the burden and so there is no gap. Then after some time they can ramp up back to the full amount of hours. It strikes a good balance for many people, helping them keep an up-to-date skill set, get out the house, adult contact etc...plus still having a considerable amount of time with the wee ones.

I am a male applicant and the reason they ask usually is because the job is in Munich or in the west and I am located in the east. They want to know what my wife or girlfriend does for a living as that may have a bearing on whether she would have to get a new job etc. I just consider people asking this as far too much of an intrusion into my personal life. As I see it, it's none of their business.

As to the US, I imagine people probably discriminate anyway, but it's not explicit and it's not allowed to be explicit.

Incidentally, the anti-discrimination law does not preclude discriminating on parental status (according to wikipedia.de anyway). So an employer can ask a man or a woman whether or not they have children at a job interview and make a decision based on this information. And they wonder why the birth rate is so low!

Kitkat, I think in Germany the mother-child relation is, for some deep-rooted reasons, overvalued and freighted with a lot of irrational assumptions – see for example the recent "Rabenmütter" discussion and the resistance towards Minister Ursula von der Leyen's efforts to make life easier for working mothers.

But, on the other hand, not everyone fits in the same mould; there are children who suffer when put in daycare, and there are women who are happy with being a SAHM.

@RainyDays - you are absolutely correct. My point is that women should have choices and they should not be put down for their choice (whatever it is - SAHM or career woman). Germany doesn't offer any choices or alternatives. It sucks, to be honest.

I think that's a bit too gloom of a view. Though child care is not as well structured and comprehensive as in France or Sweden, it's certainly a lot more available and affordable than in many places in the states.
Most of the mom's of the kids in my oldest son's class had careers, not just jobs. Though I'm not too sure how many took the 3 years off, I admit.
It's the percieved social pressure here that I found most difficult, until I realized that most Germans are not against women having choices and resent the term Rabenmutter as much as I do (ok, granted I have met a few nutcases who are all for SAHMs being the only way to go in life, but I'm betting there are people like that in every country - it's just not as socially acceptable to be a SAHM in some other countries).

To prevent a problem of employers being afraid to hire a young woman who would then have kids and make the employer pay her while she is on maternity leave, why doesn't Germany adopt a system like the one where it's not the company but the government which pays the woman from the taxes paid by everyone? This way, the employer would not mind a woman leaving even the next month after being hired.

And for those of you thinking it is bad that employers ask personal questions during the interviews, it is true that it's somewhat upsetting, but would you not rather know in advance who you are applying to work for, and what kind of people they want? IMHO, it's better to find out way before you are disappointed and can't stand working there anymore.

There is an Eastern European country I know where a job ad for a female flight attendant looks like this: "Woman between 18 and 28, height no less than 165 cm, not overweight." This is pure discrimination based on: age, height and weight. Yet, it's perfect. because if the ad just said: "females wishing to become flight attendants please send your resume to:..." and then you are over 28, shorter than 165 cm, and fat, you would waste a ton of yours and their time sending your resume and then going for an interview, after which they would automatically send you a rejection letter.

The company's financial loss consists primarily in having to pay the employee's wage for 3 months while she is on compulsory maternity leave (6 weeks before delivery and 8 weeks after). The state pays "Elterngeld" (67% of the net wage, max. 1800 €) for 12 months (plus 2 if the other parent stays at home for at least these 2 months). The length of time for receiving some kind of payment (besides Kindergeld) has actually been shortened with the introduction of "Elterngeld" in Jan. 2007, and it's clearly meant to be an incentive for the parent who stays at home to return to the job earlier than after three years.

The companies are not keen on the additional hassle, i. e. hiring someone else for up to 3 years with a limited contract, having to "reserve" a job for the employee and possibly creating a part-time workplace when the employee comes back.

BTW, I checked the job offers on the Lufthansa homepage, and in an ad for a flight attendant it said "minimum height 160 cm and adequate weight", no age limit. I think this is okay, and in general I agree with you, UB40, that it's no use to beat about the bush with regards to the company's expectations. So while I condemn discrimination, I doubt that anti-discrimination laws can prevent it, there's just more hypocrisy.

Lufthansa can justify the hight and weight restriction as legit and not discrimination by saying they need employees who can reach the upper storage cabins and who can pass through the aisles without problem.

The ad in the other country, on the other hand, is blatantly discriminating without justification.

You're either nuts, or you work in an industry where companies don't worry about client loyalty, team integration, personnel development and other not-just-monetary investment in workers.

...and who are physically fit (i.e. relatively tall and strong) to handle flight doors, etc. in case of an emergency. A flight attendant's primary responsibility is the safety on the flight. So I can see why they wouldn't want a 4'9" 95 lb. woman, or a grossly overweight man or woman who wouldn't be able to respond as well physically in case of emergency.

Interesting how quickly a discussion about intrusive and unneccesary questions at interview turns into a discussion about women and maternity leave. My Australian brother-in-law was recently head hunted for a job here. He was repeatedly asked about his marital status and number of children, which he refused to answer, seeing as how it was none of their business. Well, the reason for their questions became clear pretty quickly - "we don't know how much to pay you unless you tell us"!!

Which made me wonder if my salary offer had been calculated on my gender. The thought has bothered me ever since.

Which is a bit shit, you should be paid according to your skill and suitability to the job, your personal situation should have no bearing on this. I'm surprised those questions are legal in NZ to be honest

These questions aren't legal in either Australia or New Zealand - both me and my brother-in-law have been (separately) recruited for jobs in Germany. It was German employers asking the questions.

The weirdest question I got was from the guy in payroll at my new German company. He insisted they wouldn't be able to pay me until I had given him my place of birth. Have no idea what that was about!

But these standards are not applied to already working flight attendants. Have you seen some of the older (60 + year) flight attendants? Would they be capable of the physical requirements? There is no mandatory retirement age for flight attendants.

I actually like them on board they have a lot of experience that they share with the younger workers and the passengers.

If "here" is supposed to be Germany then you should change the location in your profile, right now it's making things a bit confusing.

Actually, yes - salary can be based on gender and marital status. Both my (German) husband and his sister have the same qualifications and work in the same industry. She's about 5 years older, took very little time off for two children, and so should be earning about the same as my husband. She's been working full-time now for 15 years since her last maternity leave and is too old for more kids so that's not an issue. But she earns about a third less. Two years ago she applied for another job and was dismayed at how little they offered her. When she got into negotiations and gave my husband and another colleague as examples of what the job should be paying, she was told straight out that a married woman shouldn't expect to be paid as much as a man because her husband supports her. She didn't take the job because the difference between the new job pay and her current one wasn't worth the hassle of changing.

Is that legal?

Probably not legal, but common from the stories I hear. The status of women in the workplace in Germany reminds me quite a bit of North America in the 1950's. I've even heard older women here argue that one of the reasons for high unemployment is all the women refusing to stay home. They believe if women stopped working full-time then there'd be no more unemployment problem

The whole issue is very complex and really gets people fired up on both sides of the fence.

I am a mother myself and when i came to germany in 2000 with a 2 year old looking for a full time job, i was fortunate to get a good position where i still am today. I quickly discovered a surprisingly conservative mindset when it comes to working mothers. In those days, it was very hard to get a kindergarten place. Either there were none available, and you had to go on a waiting list for a year, or they only opened for very short hours. The state run were not an option as my child was too young. Eventually i found a private one. Then there was peoples attitude to me which was often shock that i was working at all. I often heard the question asked 'and where is your child now?' and sometimes felt tempted to say, oh scrabbling about on the carpet at home on her own. Anyway, i have managed to stay in the workplace and combine it with a good family life - with one child that seems just about possible. Two would be stretching it for me personally. I work 4 days a week.

On one hand it is really great that the german system is so supportive of women who get pregnant and can go on maternity leave for up to 3 years, however i do think the system goes too far. For example, we had a colleague who went on 3 years leave with her first child and in the third year, got pregnant and had a second child, so took another three years off. She returned to the office after a six year absence, and then asked for part time work at 8 hours a week. The employer had to accept this situation unhappily and try with difficulty to occupy our colleague for the 8 hours. This colleague was often heard to boast how it was great as through working 8 hours, her health insurance was covered. This is an extreme example but hardly any wonder then that employers in germany can be negative about employing women when the system leaves itself open to some abuse.

And it is not just men either who are prejudiced about employing women, I have heard some dreadful comments and witnessed some unsupportive attitudes from the sisters too.

I do think that if a mum can work part time then there should be a stipulated minimum number of hours like 20 or 25 per week to make it worth while for all involved.

The three year maternity leave fits in with the german state kindergarten system which takes kids in only from age 3 when they are no longer wearing nappies (there are hardly any state run creches for under 3s), so unless a mother is prepared to pay for a private kindergarten so that she can work, she has to wait for the state kindergarten when the kid is three before she can return to employment.

There is a very different attitude to having and raising children in germany or at least in munich, to for example the country where i come from. The german women that i have met here in munich lay a lot of value on being with the child during those early years and that seems to be more of a priority than working and earning money.

I find alot of germans think hard before having a child and are concerned with making it all work financially before going down that track so that there is time for the child and there is not pressure for both parents to work lots of hours. If it is not financially sound, then i think many stop at one or two kids or have none. Maybe this attitude comes from the security and comfort drawn from the thought that whatever happens, the mothers job will be open to her in 3 years time.

In my culture, and i am interested to hear what fellow irish, americans and english think, the attitude is more, we will have the kids and both work full time and make it all work somehow even if we are all exhausted and stressed and spending lots of money on child care every month. Possibly it is because after limited maternity leave in some other countries, you are obliged to work full time again and don't have a part time option by law. Hence the rush back to full time work after maternity leave is over, leaving lots of stressed exhausted parents.

I think with a bit of tweaking, the german model could be the preferable solution for all.

My god fatgirl you write very well and you are extremely articulate. It was very refreshing just to read your post. I am sure that you a very good mother and a valuable asset to any company.