On January 1, 2008 a smoking ban will come into force in Bavaria. Smoking will then be banned in nearly all public enclosed spaces, including bars and restaurants.

The ban does not, however, apply to "Festzelte" (festival tents) that are in use for less than 21 days. This means the ban does not apply to Oktoberfest tents.

Other exceptions are shopping centers, jails, and grocery stores (no, I don't understand this last one either).

For full details of the legal ruling, see: Bayerischer Landtag - Gesetz zum Schutz der Gesundheit (PDF)

You are allowed to smoke in grocery stores??

I am beyond thrilled about this...god bless it.

...though, that grocery store bit is just entertaining.

But, does it say anything about in office buildings?

I don't remember really seeing anybody smoking in grocery stores anyway?

Great! Now after a night at a bar or a nightclub, I won't stink like a freaking ashtray. Not the mention the annoying women in clubs who don't know how to hold a cigarette and accidently burn people's clothes or hair. I have a big burnt hole from some bitch's cigs on my dress from few weeks ago...
I haven't seen anyone smoking in shopping centers or grocery stores so far.

For selfish reasons I'm happy about this. I quit 2 years ago but have taken to smoking occasionally when I've been drinking and regretting it in the morning this should pretty much take care of that.

I regret that too!

Last weekend when I was in Edinburgh I was amused to see the number of people freezing their arses off eating and drinking outside so they could have a cancer stick. I assume the same will happen here.

what they need to do in the UK (and in Germany) is ban smoking within 50m of entrances to bars, clubs and restaurants. They have this in Hawaii and probably other states in the US too. This gets rid of the huddle of smokers who would filth up the entrances with their cigarette buts and make you walk through a cloud of stinky smoke to get in anywhere.

You can't get more than 50 meters from a bar or restautant in the UK these days so you're basically banning smoking in built up areas. Now there is a good idea.

It wasn't 50 in Hawaii, it was more like 5 meters.

It was Hawaii 5-0.

Book him Danno!

Editor Bob should merge his own thread now with one of the other hundred threads we've had on this topic

Well to be fair, this thread is meant to be about the tents.

http://www.rp-online.de/public/article/akt...tschland/420857

actually cites Stoiber as saying that he can imagine non-smoking tents in the future:


Of course he's abgedankt now, so we'll see what Beckstein says about it.

Oh and smoking was never allowed in grocery stores, I think there's maybe a mistranslation floating about somewhere.

And what's currently linked above is not a "legal ruling" at all, but a draft of the law. Which still hasn't been passed, btw.

Are you sure it hasn't been passed? I thought all the states had agreed to it and then it was passed on a federal level?

The federal government disclaimed all responsibility for this, which is stupid, and covered in other threads. Every state has to pass its own laws.

The document linked from the first post says right on it: "Gesetzentwurf", not Gesetz. A Gesetz still has to be verabschiedet. If anyone can find this document and it says "Gesetz" and when it was passed, great. I'm really anxious, I only really realized today that it still hasn't been friggin' passed! What are they waiting for!

They're like Tescos, only smaller (and shitter).

The same thing happened here in Italy on 10th January 2006. I was an heavy smoker and for me the first no-smoking day was one of the second worst day from that discover that Santa Clause doesn't exists.
In italy is forbidden to smoke everywhere ... disco, club, restaurant, private and public office, shops, ect .. you still can smoke in your house or outside.
Well .. after 2 years I really think that it's a really good law and when I went to munich this year I really found the difference from staying in a place where you can breathe and a place full of smoke where you exit with the clothes that smell bad.
it's just a fact of habit (hard to remove)... but trust me .. you'll appreciate that too!!

Gen is right, it's a draft law. A "legal ruling" would come from the judiciary whereas this is a legislative text.

Yippee - but if it does come into effect on January 1st, I may have given up by the time Oktoberfest comes around, not wanting to freeze my arse off in the snow.

Has no-one told him about Search? Must be a newbie.

First the Euro, now smoking bans. This place is going down the pan...

Having lived in Scotland when the ban came out there then England when the ban came out there I can safely say bans are crap and the whole going out experienced ruined. Shame on the powers that be.

Forget beer tents being exempt; what's the meaning of this little sentence:


..where "Art. 3 Abs. 1 Satz 1" reads: "Das Rauchen ist in Innenräumen ... verboten."

Are they going to allow smoking in side rooms?

OK, I've found the answer to my own question: yes, they've bottled it and will continue to allow smoking in a separate room. This is bad on so many levels. Firstly, they aren't allowing sufficient time for owners to make the necessary structural changes (the UK had an 18-month gap between the law being passed and it coming into effect; Baden-Würtemburg had just four days). Secondly, it is grossly unfair on small venues that do not have the option of creating a separate room. Thirdly, publicans will be nervous about investing in smoking rooms because a complete smoking ban could be implemented at any time. Fourthly, it continues to expose staff to second-hand smoke, as well as non-smokers visiting a pub with smokers, thus invalidating the entire premise of the law and additionally making it liable to legal action.

This so-called "smoking carriage" idea was considered in the UK and was almost universally rejected and derided. In fact the only person in favour of it was Tony Blair, which I think says all we need to know about it. Still, he'll be interested to note that Blair's Legacy is in fact to be found in Bavaria.

I would bet that in ten years smoking will be banned in the tents as well. Too bad for the cigarette vendors - you can earn a lot of money flogging cigarillos and see-gars to drunken revellers ...

@Small Town Boy

I made the exact point you are making now on one of the previous threads.. however, it turns out that the point of this smoking ban is not to protect the works but to:


So to protect the people from passive smoking. See page 5 here

This is crap. The law should be there to gives workers a safe place to work in. That's it. A worker shouldn't be put out of a job, or have no chance to get a job, because they want to work in a safe environment. However, as a member of the public, if you don't like smoke, just don't go where there is smoke.

I'm 100% for this law, however not for the reason given, which seems different to the reason given by everyone else and I simply don't understand why.

Anyway, I reckon these Nebenräume will die out. In every other country that this ban has been put in place, you have a load of smokers complaining at the beginning, but then after a while a large majority of these people find they actually like it. So in the end, you'll have just a small percentage of hardcore smokers, and stinky Nebenräume where really no one wants to go.


I bet you're right, but this time due to public pressure. People will get used to going out and not having to put up with smoke. Then when the tents come and allow it, people won't be keen to enter. It'll start with non-smoking areas in the tents, then it'll be wiped out completely.

I fully agree that workers should be protected, but I think the smoking rooms undermine even the existing aim of the law. If a non-smoker goes to a pub with two or three smokers then although in theory he has a choice between the smoking and non-smoking areas, in practice his choice is between sitting with his friends and sitting on his own. Not everyone huddled under the awnings outside a British pub is a smoker.

Hopefully, will sure beat waiting outside for so long, and means all the boring spoil spoilsports won't be inside either, win-win!

You probably understand me wrong.. it'll be all the smokers standing outside..

Yeah its a bit early in the morning for me

Coming from Scotland and having been there during the ban I completely disagree with Schotte. Going out in Scotland or England now is a fantastic experience. You can wake up in the morning and not smell of the shitty smoke that comes out of the lungs of a minority of sad addicts - or 'social smokers'. Even smokers get used to it quickly and eventually see the sense of it. Let's face it, apart from the cancer stuff, smoking simply smells shit. I still can't believe it will happen here but I'm sure it will be a success as Germans seem to like following rules. Halleluiah !!!

I'm also enormously looking forward to the smoking ban coming into effect, but I'm not quite so convinced that it will be universally abided by, especially as the fine will be a paltry €5. Germans follow rules with one exception – when it comes to smoking. I frequently see people smoke where not allowed, for example outside of the smoking areas in the "smokefree" train stations. While they studiously dispose of all their rubbish into the appropriate bin, they think nothing of chucking their cigarette butt onto the ground.

regardless of what you think of smoking, chucking cigarette butts on the ground has never annoyed me, better than setting a bin on fire and they just disintegrate anyway. i dont see the problem in it really, unless you are tipping an ashtray onto the ground

Even in a forest or at the top of a mountain? Or on a beach? In a playground? Seen plenty in all those places. They take all their other litter back with them.

this is the best news I've read , all day!

What is?

That's total crap. In other words, smokers should be entitled to determine where non-smokers can and cannot go? What an infantile proposition.

The point is that is bad for the health not only of actual smokers but of people nearby. Smoking has to be one of the most selfish habits around, because it has a directly impact on people who don't smoke. I am sick of not being able to go to certain cafes or bars that I otherwise like just because they are too smokey. Just last night my mother and I had to move to the other end of a restaurant because the pompous wanker at the next table decided to light up a cigar, and not giving a shit about the people eating around him. Why on earth should we have to move? From 1 January he can smoke it on the pavement.

Smokers have had a great run for countless years, and I have zero sympathy if they now have to go outside and freeze. While non-smokers previously had the "choice" to not go where there is smoke, the smokers can choose to go outside, smoke at home or give up. At least it won't be the non-smokers who have to suffer anymore.

I only wish this law had been enacted ten years earlier. I'm sure that in 100 years people in Western countries will look back and wonder how on earth anyone could have smoked in the first place - when you see smokers cooped up in a smoking room at an airport you can see just what a pathetic addiction it is.

HEAR HEAR!!

Took the words right out of my mouth!

Except in plenty of bars, smokers are the majority and if you add in those who don't care that much a CLEAR majority.
The stories I hear from Ireland and the UK are NOT backing up the claims that people don't go to pubs becasue they are "too smoky" but becasue they aren't pub goers.

And of course, still no solution to the outside noise issue after 11PM.

Well I'm not a pub goer, but I'm definitely a bar/café/club goer, and all I can say is that I will be a hell of a lot happier not having to endure smoke just because I want to have a night out with friends instead of hanging out at home. If you look at a place like Schall & Rauch (so aptly named), which is about 50 metres from my apartment, I simply can't go in there if they have the front windows closed. It's not because I don't want to go there, but because the smokers force me to exercise my "choice" not to go. I think this is unfair, and certainly no less "unfair" than if smokers in future have to go outside for five minutes. They can keep on smoking, but I don't have to be a part of it.

I don't know where the UK statistic about people who "don't care" comes from, but I am yet to meet the non-smoker who wouldn't prefer to be in a smoke-free environment if given the choice.

As for the 11 pm problem - well people will just have to be a bit quieter outside than they are in the bar.

Trouble is, after many years of pub experience in Munich as a customer and as a pub worker I can tell you, people will NOT be quiet enough on the street after 11PM.
Even the presence of ONE, SINGLE, SILENT smoker outside a pub in Munich after 11PM is an infringement of any existing Freischänkfläche and people WILL complain.

Each time the police turn up its a EUR 150 odd fine for the pub.

Coz they all will be when 5 smokers who have all had 6 beers each go out at 2am. Especially as under existing laws, they are not liable to pay any fine - the pub is. Even if the laws were changed, then by the time the cops show up, the smokers will be gone.

I bet you'll be wishing the smokers could go inside the Schall und Rauch again pretty soon after you keep getting woken by the noise outside...

Yeah, well luckily I won't be woken up because I'm in a Rückgebäude off Amalienstrasse

However, bars might have to become more stringent in their controls. Plenty of places have bouncers anyway, so their "duty statement" will have to be expanded to include keeping smokers quiet. Those places that don't yet have doormen might have to think about getting one - a Zumutung, perhaps, but still cheaper than multiple 150 EUR fines. Even Schall und Rauch has a sub-continental guy (I dare not speculate as to whether he is Indian/Pakistani/Sri Lankan) who shoos people off the footpath at punkt 23:00 in summer, so he might just have to work a bit longer (and get cold).

Or they can think about changing the regulations so that it is the smokers who are fined for being noisy, but that's much tougher to enforce.

As discussed on the previous page, there won't be anyone standing outside on the pavement because the "smoke-free" pub will have a smoking den for the addicted, in the same way that the "smoke-free" Munich Hbf has 38 smoking areas cunningly located where everybody has to walk through.

Well I for one am curious to see how that will work. I'm not optimistic that it will...even shooing people away gets too loud for some areas. That's why people currently aren't allowed to congregate in front of a pub after 11pm.

No mate, those smoking zones are due to go at the stations soon too.

Pubs will only have a smoking room IF they can build one and are able to afford to do so. Of ALL the pubs I reguarly go to it isn't a possibility.
I know plenty of pubs with less public floorspace than my bedroom!

As for getting a bouncer? Jesus no!
That is one of the things I really like about Munich compared to far too many places in the UK.
Not my usual role to side with the bosses but how is a tiny little pub run on bits of string and sticky back plastic supposed to afford extra staff to implement a law that is being broken becasue people are obeying another law? Circular argument madeness!

I have seen with my own eyes at a local the landlord cashing up with the last guests (respectable looking diners) and them moving inside at 2310 when the police turned up.

KER-CHING, that's EUR 150 please.

Pubs will be allowed to have a separate smoking room; it's in the draft law! Sure, some will be too small to create such an additional space, in which case smokers will go elsewhere and all the small pubs will close down. Why do the Bavarians think it will be different here than anywhere else?

STB in "I <heart> Tescos" Shocker!

It's the same principle as the small shop issue innit.
As far as I can see the VAST majority of inner city pubs in Munich will not be in a position to create separate smoking rooms.
This could well kill off such local (working class) pub culture as remains.