Zertifikat Deutsch enough to find a good job?

Hi, I just tried using the search engine before deciding to start this topic but the search engine is coming back with an error, alas.
I am just finishing up my masters degree in north america and is thinking of moving to germany for a bit (or forever).
I have never taken a German language course so I am planning to enrol in a 4 month intensive language course in Leipzig as soon as i arrive in the summer. At the end of the four months, I can write the exam for Zertifkat Deutsch which brings me to B1 level I believe. At that point I have the option to stay another 4 months at the same school in order to get to C1 level (ZMP). But, my question is do you think it's possible that with B1 level of German I could secure a decent job (given that i meet all other qualifications)? by that i don't mean at the call centre or at restaurants but hopefully something that relates to what i studied in grad school (economics). I've been looking at some job postings and every posting says "good knowledge of german and english essential" but what is meant by "good"? am i expected to be at C1/C2 level or do you think it's possible i can get hired with my ZD (4 months of intensiv german) and possible get my new employer to support me in further language training? cuz i would really prefer that, seeing as how i don't have a lot of money to burn.

thanks

Is it difficult to learn English in North America?
What is your current level?
Thanks.

what was that comment for, anyway?
i was being serious. thanks.

actually this is a very good question and I am interested to hear if anyone has any answers/opinions.

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I was at B1 and B2 level, I was still pretty horrible at speaking German, and so were all my classmates, at both schools I attended. It's like the most awkward stage of language learning, it seems. You probably won't be able to understand everyone else without their taking a lot of extra time to help you and re-explain everything in totally easy terms until you get it. Even if you got hired, it would be really, really frustrating.

I think you should plan on getting to at least C1 before people will take you seriously in a German company. You'll be speaking pretty broken German, but at least you'll be able to express yourself. But in a US company with a German location you might have better luck, why not call one up and ask HR about ex pat placement requirements?

It depends a lot on what you can actually do.

BTW, please explain to me how you "write the exam" as opposed to "take the exam". In my mind, the teacher wrote the exam for you to take. I guess English is difficult for some North Americans to learn.

@ Eurovol: writing an exam also means taking it.

He is an economist, so he's presumeably going to have to communicate with colleagues about some pretty complex ideas. Like, better than, say, "Me in Germany now. Money grow big, me paid good."

(Sorry... slaphappy.)

Not slap happy enough. It is that England English twist that always gets me. Most of the time is just breaks all the rules regarding meaning and sentence structure. Its like the phase "to take a left turning". It befuddles me every time and makes me laugh a bit.

Well as an economist, he is going to have to learn quite a bit of German or work for an NGO, a specialty niche like DW or an International Co. Much of the actual work performed may actually be in English, but the meetings (oh those damn meetings without end) and the correspondence will mostly be in German for German companies and clients.

I would also suggest taking a math and an econ class in German just for the training aspects and to learn that you need to know everybody's name that ever published a paper on anything related. You have to cite, cite and cite some more before certain types here take you seriously.

What eurovol said is pretty much on the money. Assuming he is not an EU citizen, the OP probably does not have a realistic chance even with C1 level ability. His education, unless it is from a well-known elite university such as Harvard (or maybe McGill) won't be recognized as the equal of a German one in the marketplace, and if the OP comes over here without being married to an EU citizen or being one himself, any prospective employer would have to prove that no EU citizen or holder of a Niederlassungserlaubnis is available to do the job. If it is an entry-level position, there will obviously not be a shortage of people to do the job.
My recommendation is to do a doctorate at a German university (this will be in the vast majority of cases research-only) which will give you time to learn the language in preparation for an oral defense in German (you can, with your supervisor's permission write the thesis in English) and give you the oppotunity to network and gain work experience via internships once your German is satisfactory. You could also try to get internships here without doing a thesis, but language will also be a bar to entry via that route.

If you have some solid work experience, perhaps with econometric modelling, you might have a chance for an employment-based visa as "highly skilled", but someone who is just finishing up their masters usually hasn't had the chance to gain that much work experience as an economist.

If you are really interested in working in Europe, but decide that learning German would take too long, try Switzerland, London, or maybe Luxembourg, especially if you speak French. Isn't the job market in the US and Canada good right now for people with an MS/MA in Economics? You already know there is an opportunity cost in spending time learning German when you could be working full-time.

I have an academic background in economics as well- what is your area of expertise?

EDIT: I have not actually used this website myself, but you may find it useful to search for doctoral programs:
http://www.daad.de/deutschland/studienange...s/07535.en.html

I have heard that LMU here in Munich has a North American-style doctoral program in economics. So does Goethe University in Frankfurt. These may be combined programs, though.

I forgot to specifically address this question of employer support for additional language training earlier. I would be shocked if they would do this, especially for German language training, since they usually have plenty of applicants with the requisite language skills. There is the expectation that you will hit the ground running, in part because the tax wedge on labor is so high here. You might also be able to get hired by a firm in North America, work on your German, and then get transferred here after a few years.

Thank you all for your advice. I suppose the first sarcastic reply was in regards to the way I wrote my original post; I wasn't aware people could be so anal.. I mean I don't believe I was tAlKin' LyK Diz oR NeThin - and "writing" an exam is a common phrase used here, so if anything you are being ignorant.

In regards to what Conquistador said, since I am not an EU citizen, and my education is not from Harvard or McGill (I wasn't aware McGill was so reputable internationally.. I chose another university over McGill), and I don't have a significant other who is an EU citizen so I am guessing my chances of getting a job (econ related) is slim. That's fine, but I am not going to Germany because I can't get a job here. I wanted to learn the language first, I guess out of personal interest (better late than never). and if I ended up really liking Germany, I was going to try and stick around for longer which meant having to look for a job and etc. Also, I am not aiming for a top econ consulting job at McKinsey or anything like that; anything remotely related to economics will do in the beginning (especially as I'm a recent grad without much experience). I was thinking more in terms of entry-level analyst jobs but I guess based on what you say, it won't be so easy getting those either? darn.

I guess I will have to think about this more. Maybe I was being too optimistic. The thought of leaving to Germany seemed so lovely. and having to put my education into some use would have been really nice. Anyway, thanks for your feedback.


I am interested in industrial organization/applied micro. You?

For me, it's financial economics. I also have an interest in environmental economics, esp. resource accounting. With IO, you are likely to be oriented towards consulting (if not employed as an analyst) so seriously think about doctoral study here if you are confident you can learn German in a few years. From what I understand, having a doctorate is a plus internationally in the consulting industry, so don't worry about being overqualified with one.

It would defintely be deleterious to you to have any significant break between your graduation and your first full-time post-graduation employment. Analysts are not in short supply here, and there are often some difficulties finding that first job. There is an expectation here that an applicant has done multiple internships while a student (maybe you have). Another problem faced by foreign applicants here is that employers are legally obligated to give you a written reference here that details your responsibilities on the job, and in codespeak, discusses your performance. These written references, called Zeugnisse, along with your resume, are usually what decides whether or not you even get an interview in most industries. Another difficulty faced by non-EUers is that many smaller firms will often not even consider you because they don't want to hassle with getting a work visa approved for you and bin your application when they see you don't already have permission to work here.

If you really want to come over here, consider first getting work experience in North America and taking some German courses on the side, or coming over here for doctoral work. Find a professor at a university here who has research interests and publications similar to your own, and contact them, preferably with some sort of coherent research proposal and literature review ready to share with them if asked.

McGill is quite reputable internationally, although I did not mean to suggest that it was a peer of Harvard. I thought about doing my postgraduate work at McGill in part because I like Montreal.

From contacts with people throughout Germany, I gather that there could be an opportunity for analysts, esp. at the banks where , thanks to globalisation et al, they need people with excellent command over the English language to analyse (or whatever) international capital markets and such like and write reports in English for their 'foreign' clients . So while you are learning German, you could try working, may be partime, with such banks and other financial institutions. Some of these banks have an office in the USA-mostly NY (although I see that you are from Canada) - perhaps browsing their websites might give you a clue. Usually, they all have a 'careers' link.

@ Sweetypie: Not exactly... there isn't really a such thing as part-time equities analyst, at least not for the important banks that would send an Expat with no German to Germany. These guys work 12 hour days and their research reports are their meal ticket. After graduation, MBAs or MSs usually jump in as junior analyst, work 15 or 16 hour days under a senior analyst learning the trade as they also study for their CFA (this is usually expected, if they are any good at all), and they just keep plugging away until it's time to start slowly slowly taking over their one little teeny industry sector and sink or swim. But international markets are not any less important than domestic; it's not something companies just hand off to newbies. Same on sales side of things, talking to international clients. He has neither the language nor experience, and he needs at least one or the other to get anywhere with this; otherwise they wouldn't bother bringing him on.

I thought about a doctorate in Germany, but the thought of doing PhD in Economics in GERMAN seemed a bit too much for me to handle. Econ PhD is difficult as it is, and learning German is probably difficult as well, so... yeah. I think I am either going to look into English speaking doctoral programs, or stay in my country and get some work experience before settling down in Germany permanently. Maybe I could find a job at a company which also has offices in Germany..? maybe that way it'll be easier for me to relocate in the future. In any case, thanks everyone for your helpful advice. I really appreciate it.

By the way, this isn't important but I'm not a he

The Wirtschaftswissenschaften of Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität Frankfurt have got a website in English that reads well: Economics faculty Uni Frankfurt

Considering that most universities in Germany do not require major course-work for an economics ph.d., but rather focus almost exclusively on the research part, language is not necessarily a major issue. You may not be aware that traditionally, there are no standardized ph.d. programs for econ ph.d.'s in Germany, though some of the major universities have established such programs in recent years and now also require advanced course-work. At the other universities, what you need to do is find a ph.d. adviser who is willing to take you on board (either as a salaried assistant, or simply as an external ph.d. candidate), and the rest is then pretty much up to you and your adviser to determine...

Like others have said here, at the B1 level you will definitely not be good enough to hold down a professional job that requires you to speak German. When a job advert says "good command of German" that means something a hell of a lot higher than B1 or even C1. At B1 I couldn't even understand TV shows in German properly, and certainly couldn't have good conversations with people.

Right now I'm doing C1 (have been learning German for a bit over 7 months in total) and I wouldn't feel 100% comfortable in a job situation... I'd probably find waitressing quite easy (unless I have to deal with shitty customers), but I definitely wouldn't be able to work as a receptionist. The bottom line is, my qualification doesn't reflect my actual abilities. Hell, I can barely even construct a grammatically correct sentence. So maybe rather than trying to find a connection between your language qualification and your employability, perhaps you could just ask yourself, "Is my German good enough for the job? Would I feel comfortable working as _________?"

in a german course you will have to know "everyday german" needed for a job - you need to speak what people speak on the streets etc - that you will NEVER learn at these courses. Your only hope would be to practice and live in a german household to get the hang of the language fast. I learnt german in 3 months only living in a german household made this possible

I am kind of coming to this thread late, but I came here to Germany a couple of years ago and started my career, similar to what Eironeuomenos is thinking about.

I know a few people who have lived here for years and cannot speak any German at all, so if you come here and learn intensively, I think lots of companies would be willing to give you a chance, despte ropey German skills I assume you aren't going to work for a small company in the countryside. As a young professional I really don't think you will come across many people who would admit to not being able to speak English. And being a native English speaker is also a real asset in itself, as very few German people can speak English perfectly.

I don't think it is a problem that your degree wouldn't be recognised (I think someone mentioned that being a problem). That would be kind of like banning all people from abroad from working at your company...It would have to be a pretty small-minded employer who doesn't want to benefit from people coming from other countries. If anything I have got better jobs than would otherwise have been the case back in the UK...maybe that's bordering on blagging.lol.

I think you could give it a go and it could work out professionally.

guv981, don't you think a non-EU citizen is going to face some barriers that you did not have to face as a EU citizen? As for how a foreign degree is viewed, my source for that comment is two HR professionals at large, multinational German companies in the Munich area who I know on a personal basis, and thus are pretty likely to be frank about this.
Just curious, but what field are you in?

Aint that the truth?!

It might be common sense, but the rule in Germany is unless you are trained in plumbing to at least PHD level, you are in no position to comment about or give advice about the turning on of a tap.

@conquistador - I am in consulting and have worked for both one of the old big five and for one of the very biggest German banks directly and I have never had an issue with my degree being recognised.

In my opinion not accepting foreign degrees is bordering on xenophpbia, but it also just doesn't make sense. Who wants a company with only one nationality? Wouldn't want to work there anyway. It shouldn't be a problem, especially if someone is coming from a country like America with more or less the most successful economy in the world.

But maybe my experience is the exception not the rule... hard to say.

I suppose that there is a collage of experiences here. If you have a degree from a university accredited by an EU government, EU law says your credential must be recognized; however, the OP attended an Canadian university. I am not suggesting in any way that her degree is not an excellent and worthy credential, but if she is competing for an entry-level job with candidates who went to LMU, Uni Mannheim, Uni Heidelberg, or LSE, she will probably be, all other things being equal, at a disadvantage even if her lack of German is not a factor. I agree with you that it does give a whiff of xenophobia; however, HR people have to wade through a large number of applications, and it would not surprise me if they weeded out more difficult ones to evaluate and verify, especially if a work visa would have to be requested for a successful applicant. ´

Good point. One of the largest problems you will face in fact. In any country, in any lingo, you always wanna get you CV onto the right persons desk, and to be rather blunt, people that work in HR are generally rather unqualified - its an admin job FFS, especially in Germany where stupid betriebsrat bollocks does some of the HR work. Here, the HR function is almost purely admin actually. Before anyone gets upset about my sweeping statements, I worked with HR departments for years man, I've met a fair few of 'em.
Regardless on the CV content, if it is in English, it might get binned before its even looked at - if somebody sent me a krout CV, I would certainly bin it before reading it, it is understandable, even if not particularly clever.
A speculative letter and CV written in B1 German would, in my opinion, create a much worse impression though, so your only hope is luck. Yep, luck. OK, you can network and stuff, try to get names of people to send stuff directly to, but frankly, thats all luck too.
Erm, good luck.

Language is a barrier, but almost all of us who have been here have overcome it and people succeed or fail here for a multitude of other reasons too. Any potential employer may or may not require a high level of spoken or written German so to put the original poster off because he may not speak German to a sufficient standard is simply blinkered. I know loads of people here (albeit not economists) who can't utter a syllable of German yet perform their jobs well enough.

If you want to move to Germany and try it out then start applying for jobs and see what happens. The worst any potential employer can do is say 'no'.

One can always find a native speaker to help with the CV and the cover letter, though. Writing it yourself without a native speaker having a good hard look is definitely not a good idea, unless your German is really good...

If someone can find me a person working in an entry-level permanent position as an economist here in Germany who doesn't speak any German, I want to meet this person. German universities turn out enough skilled graduates in economics. It's not like IT. There are some excellent postgraduate programs in economics here, even a few taught in English. I would be shocked to so much as find a job ad for an entry-level economist position that requires only English- they will want both, albeit not completely bilingual in many cases. Economists have to be able to communicate their research.

The problem with having a native speaker write your CV when your German is not up to snuff is that it is obvious you got help from one. How is it going to look if you claim to speak only good German but have a CV and cover letter in perfect German?

The OP might find the following thread on use of English in the workplace of international companies informative:

American and international companies in Munich