Catholic church wants to cancel the MTV awards

Hey Parnell,
You realize the entire debate was not about whether we lived in a democracy or not. It was about whether the catholic church “tells� non-catholics how to live their lives.

Indeed, if a group of catholics band together and pass a law, that is democracy, but that still proves the point we were debating. (for sake of argument lets ignore the fact that in a democracy the rights of minorities should still be protected)

So do you concede the point that Catholics and thusly the Catholic Church “tell� non-catholics how to live their lives?

If you are still hiding behind the “no, the police do� line of thought: Then do you believe this applies in all cases? ie. that the actions and laws passed by any political group are not the issue, but rather the police that enforce them? (a tough argument to make in this country)

Only if you consider "philosophers" to be "losers". Ever taken a course in logic? How about rhetoric?

Yes I can. here.

my point wasn't really to say that there would be more or less holidays, I've also no doubt there would be the same number - its just that many of the holidays we have at the moment have religious origins - but my point was more than I don't notice people starting threads on Good Friday complaining that the church has 'dictated' that they should have a day off work

I don't really see the problem with the church expressing a point of view just like any other citizen can. I'd rather there wasn't a church too but I see this as being one of their lesser misdemeanours, and accusing one of their members as having too much spare time is probably a little rich coming from any of us here on TT

I'm not messing with you, I really didn't understand what you meant with your post. I still don't

You asked if any non religious countries have more public holidays and I said Canada does. What did I miss?

He meant... I've taken a course in rhetoric and logic! This should prove my point

Dear God (or whomever) , kindly purchase a dictionary. Look up "dictionary" then look up "democracy". The end.

Good Friday is the other day when you is the other day the church doesn't want you getting ripped off your tits and dancing your rubber knickers off to chee-Z gay Euro house.

Of course getting away from the pedantic nature of my post , in reality the secular authorities would axe a ton of holidays (and owuld be right to IMHO) , but that is not the nature of this thread - which is about the dreadful way in which the Catholic church "tells" non Catholics how to live their lives.

You lot should start a charity. and emigrate.

I'm a contractor - and previously I owned my own business. So yeah, I'd rather be able to choose my own holidays than have them dictated to me (but that's a whole other point)

Again, I agree... we are living in a democracy. This was never subject to debate.

Again, whether it is right or wrong for Catholics to influence policy was never subject to debate.

The debate was specifically about whether Catholics tell non-Catholics how to live their lives.


When given specific examples of laws you first said it wasn’t the catholic church ‘telling’ people, but rather local police.


This is extremely weak and pedantic. Anyone with any contextual knowledge of the English language would know that in the post where it was used, the word “tell� did not mean “I am sick of priests knocking on my door, and uttering words at me which describe a way that I should live�… but rather it was used to describe a legal influence on our lives.

You now are trying to change the debate by saying that this is all part of democracy…. With the implication that because democracy is “good� that this process must also be “good�.

Again, do you concede the point that catholics try to tell non-catholics how to live?

Or more specifically do you concede the point that catholics try to influence the behavior of non-catholics through the use of a legal system?

Sorry, you loose this one. You have repeatedly dodged the question, and tried to change the debate. Perhaps you are the one that needs a class in rhetoric and logic.

But the point is well made by thefireline.

Laws enacted to please the Catholic church make it illegal to dance and sing on a particular day.

Why do they care? If individual Catholics feel it is inappropriate to party on this day, then it is their right not to.

But what right do they have to impose this on the rest of the population?

Ah, I get it now, your problem with my point is that I said Canada has more holidays and you wanted an example of a country that had exactly the same number of holidays. Even you have to admit that's a pretty silly argument but ok I understand now.

False. It is about whether the Catholic church “tells� non-catholics how to live their lives. You said it was not the case. Therefore to prove you wrong we only need to supply one counter example.

Someone well versed in logic should know this.

In sequential order:

It is? I had the impression he made 50 bazillion points extremely badly.

Which laws and when were they enacted? I imagine the timeline would have a lot to do with the reasons.

Why do they care? I imagine it had something to do with solemn reflection . Something posters on this thread seem incapable of doing before hitting the "reply" button.

Umm it is their fucking country in case you had forgotten.

Who are "they" ?
The ones with a Suppenhuhn on their passport?

I'd bet every yoyo I've never paid in Kirchensteuer, that in inner Munich there are more people who rather go dancing than praying on these holidays.

I'm going to try once again to quieten you down.

The expression "out of your element" has rarely applied so well to an individual or circumstance as to you and your posts here.

In rhetoric someone proposes an argument/thesis.
Other parties try to shoot down that argument by outlining exceptions/anomalies to that thesis that render it invalid.

Since I am not the initial poster and only posting a response to the thesis the proposition is not mine. Therefore you are writing out of your anus.

I think it's only fair, that since these Catholic fuckers make us stay in and not go dancing or listen to music because of their fucked up superstition, they should, in turn, be forced to go out clubbing for an entire night and get fucked up drunk. It's only fair.

You're a Catholic, Parnell.

Do you mind if I party on 1 November? Do you think most Catholics in Munich care if I do?

If so, then why?

Oh my gosh I had forgotten for a second , the place is not full of Catholics nor people who call themselves Catholic. Is there a place where you contribute to the "homosexual club" , and if you don't contribute you don't get to be a member?

In some ways I agree with Parnell on this one. Yes, the fact that the church demands these things is ridiculous but they can demand whatever they want, it's not the churchs job to look out for the rest of us, it looks after it's followers. It's up to the politicians to look out for all of our best interests and they've chosen to cater to the church.

My issue is with the government and not the church.

Doesn't Bayern 3 only play ballads and other "non-party" music on November 1st?

Problem is ER, if the politicians choose to ignore the church (as they have on this occasion), then they try to bully them to get their way. That's not right either...

Agreed. A statement was made. You said it was false, we gave examples about how you are incorrect. Here is the initial exchange, lest you forget:



I can't lay out the thread any more plainly than I did Catholic church wants to cancel the MTV awards. At this point you are just dodging because you are too embarrassed to admit you to an indefensible position: that people not immediately attending church are not “told� how to live their lives by the church.

no different to big business, various pressure groups such as small business and contractor organisations etc etc (not that that is necessarily right either)


in a few words you got across far better than me what I've been trying to say

Agreed.

I , strangely enough , am not the topic of this thread.

Personally I couldn't be fucked what you do , hopefully you do it well and safely. However I am in the minority here (more's the pity) and everytime I turn up some music above "3" on my amplifier dial the old witch below me knocks on my door and complains.

Now I could tell her to go fuck herself and yes it has often been borderline , even with one so placid as I. However I live here and have to respect others right to do the same - silent contemplation does not seem to me to encroach too severely on my living style , in fact quite a few people seem to think it appropriate to have it. I have always been surprised by the number of British people who think that Sundays should be shopping-less and it was a long running thread on here at one stage - that mere fact emphasising that there is no clear concensus one way or another but throwing into doubt a certainty on either side. Once again , since I am an (albeit tax-paying) guest here I try to comply with the incumbents.

You did? Oh dear me , I didn't see any of them. Kindly point out the posts detailing examples of members of the Catholic church , acting on behalf of that organisation forcing others to comply with their wishes.

P mate, I'm being pragmatic and when I said Inner Munich I didn't just mean the boys that are "good with colours" but inner city residents generally.
The Tanzverbot is a pain in the arse (sic) for a lot of people but I suppose, live and let live, let it stay.
What annoys me is that where the KVR has made an exception as it is legally allowed to do, the church still gets its knickers in a twist.

I specifically addressed this, and ask you if you believe this to be universally true, or simply convenient for this particular argument.

yes, but the politicians form their ideals from the Catholic upbringing and how important the Catholic church is in the daily lives here. Just look at the shopping hours as an example. And us as froeigners cannot vote here, so our voice is unheard in the polls.

It's pointless arguing with Parnell. He has adopted the Badbob school af avoiding the issue.

Throws a lot of red herrings, but when it comes down to it - although it's obvious to anyone with half a brain, he will never admit that the that the Catholic church are doing anything wrong - like using their beliefs to try to contol the lives of non-Catholics.

...or that most of the money that was donated to Mother Teresa remains unaccounted for - for that matter...

There's a fair ammount of truth in this Carm.
They are playing to the gallery of elder, suburban and rural voters here.

Lol I think this is your whole beef with the Church...

some poor old Albanian Nun did more for India and the World than you lot could for yourselves or anyone else and you're pissed about it , or shamed , or a mixture of the pair.

See - still not addressing the point I made.

Attacking my integrity, rather than focussing on the point I made of missing money. Very Badbob like.

It's always the same and I'm starting to get bored with you...

Don't give up yet Hazza, I find this thread very entertaining!

@ Hazza
which point would that be now?

If it's that the Catholic church uses its beliefs yadda yadda - I believe I've rather refuted that point on this thread , rather pointing out that it is the politicians, who represent the people democratically, reluctance to change old laws which leads to your frustration.

EDIT: Notice you haven't responsed to my suspicion about the origin of your hatred of Catholicism.

I hate all organised religion...don't think yourself special...

EDIT: you never responded to the point of the missing money in Mother Teresa's case - just like you're refusing to acknowledge the Catholic churches part in forcing everyone to observe their "quiet" days.

I dislike all organised religion too. Anyone see Richard Dawkins's documentary "The Root of All Evil".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Root_of_All_Evil%3F

Well worth a look.

Puts all religions into the right light, although the Catholic religion has probably the most nasty and vindictive god of them all.

And enlightened people? Never argue with religious nutters. It's like trying to shovel diarrhoea back up your arse with an ice cream spoon.

@ Hazza

What missing money - once again you can't prove it one way or another. When you were invited to go down and help the poor of Munich alongside one of the organisations you refused , and you accuse me of avoiding the truth. Furthermore you stated that MT did more harm than good in the world - which I think indicates your level of bias on all matters concerning the Church.

Since the Catholic church , to date ,does not nor has it ever had suicide bomb squads running around "forcing" people to do shit then your point/belief is rather daft. However it is obvious that the Church still commands (or at least once commanded) the respect of the State to enact such laws and the mood has not yet turned sufficiently to repeal such laws nor is there sufficient democratic will to force such. Tough shit.

It seems to me that you continually repeat your falsehoods to yourself , regardless of the facts refuting them.

Good man , down with Newton , Einstein and all of that. Tell me , were you dissappointed when Communism and Nazism lost?

I never argue with religious "believers". It's like trying to shovel diarrhoea back up my arse with an ice cream spoon.

But just for you:

My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.

Albert Einstein

parnell, have you noticed that Bavaria has been under the thumb of a party with Christlich in its name for the last few decades? I would think that the Catholic church has no inconsiderable influence on their attitudes and convictions and therefore the laws they impose.

Maybe spell it out for him?

CSU = Christlich-Soziale Union

A party with a name like that would be laughed at in Britain. The Christian Social Union? Bums against the wall lads...

@ sarabyrd

I am from a country where the biggest political party is called (in English) "Soldiers of Destiny" , you will no doubt be astonished to learn that in past few decades no members of this party , to my knowledge or that of my peers has been involved in soldiering or involvement in time-machine building. I hope this answers your question.

Hardly when Britain continues to enjoy political parties with such ludicrous names as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_polit..._United_Kingdom

"Democratic Unionist Party" - the democratic bit being extremely ludicrous for those with knowledge of it's head ,Iain Paisley , curiously enough head of his own Church.

"Sinn Féin" - English translation "Ourselves" - a party populated by murderers and other fine folk.

"Respect Coalition" - nuff said , I always imagine this party to have Ali G as it's head. I am sadly dissappointed.

Inquisitions my friend. Ok, so they weren't suicide bombers, but it's the same ideal of murdering those that oppose or do not agree with Catholic ideals

But don't you see? They are laughed at.

not related, but i wanted to have a halloween party on oct. 31. is this illegal?
i guess my neighbors would get miffed by that, huh?

@ Timmeh

I'll agree with you there Timmeh - not our finest hour - a bit misplaced perhaps but a fairish point.