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Financial penalties after taking a work course

Can they ask for their money back if you resign?

Toytown Germany > Discussion forum > Germany-wide > Life in Germany
brokenm
I have a colleague who is leaving for a two week training course. This is offered by our company only for employees of our company. However, he received a notice today that he must sign a form before he leaves. This form states that this course has a value of 10,000 euro. If he quits the company from the moment the course begins until one year from that date he owes 100% of this amount to the company. If he quites between one year and one day and two years he will owe 50% of this amount. After two years it will be forgotten.

I think that this should be illegal. It is not a course that he wants, the amount of 10,000 is way too high for anything he may learn. Is this legal in Germany? Can an employer force you to sign something like this? The problem is that he is still in his probationary period and feels compelled to sign this.

What are some legal excuses that would help him?

I though that since the company is placing an exact value on this course he could say that his steuerberater has informed him not to sign the form because this is a taxable gift by the company. Is this too far fetched of an idea.

The form does not even have a clause if the company fires him.

edit: Title should read is and not i
YorkshireLad6
If the course is voluntary, then it's fair. if the course is enforced then it's unfair, but I'm not sure any course can be forced upon someone unless it's a legal requirement for their job as some courses (e.g. health and safety) are. Even in those circumstances I can't see the required commitment being fair.
brokenm
He is taking it with implied force. Either he will appear as a trouble maker during his probezeit or he takes the course. It is not a required course for any reason. It will just give him an overview of what his job will entail. No certification, no use for anything when he finishes the course.
MonksTown
What YL6 said.
Freising
I guess he should see a lawyer (specialized in "Arbeitsrecht" maybe). Could this be "sittenwidrig"? I dont know how I would act in his shoes. But I do know, how I would like to act. mad.gif

EDIT:

QUOTE
§ 138 Sittenwidriges Rechtsgeschäft; Wucher

(1) Ein Rechtsgeschäft, das gegen die guten Sitten verstößt, ist nichtig.

(2) Nichtig ist insbesondere ein Rechtsgeschäft, durch das jemand unter Ausbeutung der Zwangslage, der Unerfahrenheit, des Mangels an Urteilsvermögen oder der erheblichen Willensschwäche eines anderen sich oder einem Dritten für eine Leistung Vermögensvorteile versprechen oder gewähren lässt, die in einem auffälligen Missverhältnis zu der Leistung stehen.
slateberry
This is quite normal I’ve signed many a thing and by the way any course is “for the good of the company “ not for your benefit he should take the course and be happy that he’s getting any training at all if he does not sign it they’re going to kick him out anyway

edit to your "if he is let go " if he is "let go " he will not have to pay a cent
brokenm
We are an international company and we have many problems with the language in contracts from one country to the next. What is allowed in the UK may be forbidden in Germany, for example Erfindungsrecht is much stronger in Germany than the rest of Europe. So even though this contract may be valid in the UK, I would be surprised if it were valid in Germany. I told him he should refuse to sign it, or at least have the language of the contract changed. First the worth of the course: I would change to 500 euro. Second I would have the bulk of the repayment for the first six months as this is where the company will gain the most of its advantage. At the last point is that he should have at least a clause in this contract that he does not have to repay it if he is let go from the company.
YorkshireLad6
Just for the record, €10000 is pretty steep for a 2-week course too. What the hell is he learning?
Darkknight
Since the training is only about internal company stuff, is not a certification of any kind and can't be used in another company, I don't think that can do this.
If the training were for a certification that can be used in another job/company then yes, and its pretty standard for big $ training classes.

You also say hes still in Probezeit. This contract could be a goog thing or a bad thing. If he takes the class then it could be seen as they are
planning to keep him as a perm. employee. If on the other hand he doesn't pass probezeit they could try to reclaim the $ from him.

If I were in this position, I'd say I would take the training, but only after I pass Probezeit and have some kinda garentee that I'm still going
to be employeed with the company in 2 yrs. so that I wouldn't have to pay them back. Your friend should also request such a clause. If the company
rejects it, tell'em to go see a lawyer.
Freising
Maybe there is a union or a "Betriebsrat" he could ask...
brokenm
QUOTE (slateberry @ Sep 5 2007, 7:32 pm) *
This is quite normal I’ve signed many a thing and by the way any course is “for the good of the company “ not for your benefit he should take the course and be happy that he’s getting any training at all if he does not sign it they’re going to kick him out anyway

That is the point, the course is for the good of the company. It makes sense to invest in an employee. If every little investment was to be recouped by a company, I would find that almost indentured servitude. It is also a forced way of having him stay with the company. Once again this is not a course that is accredited or one that gives him a certification. It will not be helpful for him if he seeks employment outside of our company.

I will give two examples to illustrate why I think this is inappropriate.

Employee A works for a company and wants to study and get an MBA. The company says they will pay his tuition if he signs an agreement that if he leaves the company within X amount of years he will have to pay back the company as this is for a future unrealised investment in him as a future worker.

Employee B works for a company, they give him an introductory course (of 1 hour) which then binds him to stay with the company for a couple of years or to pay back their investment, which they pulled out of their ass.

The truth is that our company gets an immediate return on its investment the moment he comes back. The longer he stays with the company his experience replaces this jumpstart learning curve. Therefore if anything the vlue of the course is realised the most immediate after he returns from the course and it will drop precipitously over the next few months. Being almost worthless in eight months time. His repayment clause should follow this value and not a two year forced servitude.
brokenm
QUOTE (YorkshireLad6 @ Sep 5 2007, 7:34 pm) *
Just for the record, €10000 is pretty steep for a 2-week course too. What the hell is he learning?

I'd rather not post details on a public forum which would identify my company, but it is quite elevated prcie. There are similar privately offered courses that are for a four month duration at one tenth the price. Or two day courses at a cost of 200 euro. So I don't know where they pulled the figure from.

We do not have a union or betriebsrat, which I would be against if someone wanted to start one in my comapny.
brokenm
What is worse is our company offers two and five day courses which are free. Which I have taken part in, so I do not know why they instituted this policy only for new beginners.
slateberry
QUOTE (brokenm @ Sep 5 2007, 7:41 pm) *
It will not be helpful for him if he seeks employment outside of our company.

it sounds like he's doing this already somehow
Freising
I did a little research. It seems this contracts are more normal than I thought. But they also tend to end up in court. There are countless sentences that try to balance the interests of both parties.
Here is for example one decision:
Court said, that it would be fair for an employer to demand repayment up to one year (after taking the course). But this was a course of two months.

The source:
http://www.pkl.com/bibliothek/news.asp?bib...t_category_id=2
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