Surrendering your passport to nightclub door staff

My son is growing up! He went to a disco this week. We were informed that he would need to take his "Ausweis", or in his case his passport. I assumed that he might have to flash it to prove his age. I was surprised and concerned to learn that upon entry all Ids/passports etc. were collected and given in to the Kasse upon entry and returned upon departure. When my son told me this I was rather horrified that he had to give away his passport. We know that our passport has to stick to us like glue and the last thing you'd want to do is put something as valuable as your passport into the hands of someone you don't know. Is this the norm for a disco visit? Is there a sensible security reason for doing this? Is it legal? I am not sure that there is a good security reason for collecting them although my son was glad he didn't have to worry about getting his passport stolen from his person. Although I'd be more worried about his passport disappearing from the front desk.

Never heard of this myself and I know I would never part with my passport for any reason.

same here, never heard of this process and I'd tell them to f... off if they wanted mine.

This is a very dangerous practice. It is a dream for identity thieves who operate dodgy nightclubs.

There is discussion about a similar practice in the UK at the moment: Watchdog to probe ID scheme


My British passport says in it:


...but what is the definition of "unauthorised person"? Does that mean "unauthorised by Her Majesty's Government" or "unauthorised by the passport holder"?

They used to do it in the states all the time, filed the ID in a box when we walked in and handed it back when we left. That way they knew everyone in the bar was over age and people couldn't easily walk out on drinks.

They can legally ask to see it, in fact they are obliged by law to control the ages of their patrons.
Not sure they have a legal right to have it on deposit and it's not the bearers to give as security anyway, at least not with a British Passport.

If they INSIST that is the rules with them then I'd suggest your son goes elsewhere for a fun night out with his friends.

This is quite a usual thing in German discos to prevent underage persons overstaying their curphew in discos.

Disagree with MichiS. I'd follow up on this club with your local authorities just to be safe. Sounds extremely dodgy.

This is a relatively normal practice, I believe the club is obliged to chuck out younger visitors at a specific time, having the ID's means they are able to do this. I'll see if I can find info to back me up. Of course the natives have an pocket sized Ausweis which is less critical and much easier to replace than a passport.

Edit - looks like its teenagers between 16 and 18 who are legally allowed in some clubs until midnight, but no later.

Edit again - a lot of clubs state the info on their websites.

Example: http://www.club-sensor.com/index.php?actio...at=Jugendschutz

I have never heard of anything like this before, and I would never ever abide by such a scheme. It is okay if staff members request to see the passport to make sure your son is old enough, but it is certainly not okay if they make him hand it over to a staff member for the time of his presence. I suppose your son should immediately find another disco, where they do not adhere to such idiotic "security measures".

Yeah, as MichiS said, they do this with persons under 18, to make sure they leave before midnight. Not all that uncommon. Whether you do it or not is up to you but if you don't, you'll have to go to another nightclub.

You can take a photocopy of your passport and get it signed and stamped by a Notar.
This removes the risk of your kids losing the actual thing.

BadDoggie's List of Things You Might Want to Reconsider Before Doing on a Friday Night

1) Clean your loaded gun
2) Play chicken with your friends and lie across the S-Bahn tracks just past a blind curve
3) Walk into a police station, hold your right arm out in front of you and scream the famous tongue-twister "Sieg heil" three times.
4) Sit at a bar all night waiting for some ninny you know from the Intarwebs to show up and hand you €30K.
5) Let your passport out of your sight.

woof.

This just goes back to the old topic of why they just don't issue Longterm residents (Those with a NeiderlasungsErlaubness)
an ID card just like the Germans, so we don't have to carry around our very expensive and important documet for checks
just like this. It's easier and cheaper to get an ID card replaced than a Passport.

I would never use my passport as ID at a club, I don't even like carrying around with me. Can your son not get a government issued ID? In Canada I used my drivers license and here I'd use my Ausweiss.

EDIT: ah, so non-nationals can't get an ausweiss?

That's the point, a German national can get an Ausweis for €10 from the KVR,
but losing your passport is a whole world of pain and expense that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Would I go out on the lash with a bulky, easy to lose doccument in reality worth several hundred Euros
and willingly hand it over to a club bouncer? No.

A normal way to deal with minors. I remember they did it when I was a kid. At midnight (or whenever curfew was) lights went up and they asked everyone under 18 to leave. They used the IDs to check that everyone was gone. Keep in mind that this method is directed towards germans, who use their "Personalausweis" which they dont consider precious at all.

Americans on the other hand are known to be very neurotic about their passport.

I can understand the clubs in a way as the boys in green reguarly raid clubs after midnight and will dish out fines if they find any under 18s on the premises.

Maybe because losing an American passport at best means several hours dealing with bureaucracy, a trip to the Embassy and potentially upwards of €150 for replacement; and at worst can put you at risk of identity theft. I'd say that's enough to make anyone a bit 'neurotic'.

Your passport, as a foreigner in Germany, is the only valid form of identification you have and without it you're unable to travel outside the country legally. You can't open a bank account or a mobile phone contract or sign up for basically any sort of new service. Trust me - from personal experience, losing a passport can be a nightmare. Don't turn it over to anybody, ever.

Those on the thread saying 'it's normal' appear to mostly be Germans*, who as previously stated have a less-critical form of ID they can hand over (which, incidentally, I still don't think they should be asked to do). So I wouldn't suggest that foreigners treat this quite so casually.

_{*This is one of those instances where I wish the Germans weren't so quick to jump in and assure people of what's 'normal'. The rules for foreigners and nationals are different.}

Pushing what is it, €150-200 for a new British passport, a LOT of bureaucratic hassles, a train ticket or flight to Düsseldorf
plus possibly hotel, at least a day of work and the cancelling of any upcoming personal or business travel for the floowing few weeks.

Being a British Soldier over here, its pretty much the norm for us to get asked to leave ID at the door. But thats part and parcel of living in a Garrison town. Usually we tell them to poke it and try our luck at another place.

I wonder what they will do when we leave and relocate back to the UK???

You yourself expressed the suspicion, asking for the passport would be "dodgy". Therefor I´d say, telling everyone that this is common practice in germany, is just fair and true. Yes the habit might be troublesome for foreigners, but that doesnt turn the club into some "den of thieves". The rules are the same for everyone, just the consequences are different.

Isnt there a way to get a different type of ID, that the guys at the entrance would accept?

We're talking about minors here, not adults that go on businesstrips. If you are over 18 you just have to show your id/passport/whatever proofs you're over 18 and you're fine.

Totally bogus practice. Mine has int' back, under Note 3, "This passport should not be allowed to pass into the possession of an unauthorised person...repeated loss or abuse of passport may lead to refusal to issue any replacement." Some mad Balkan bouncer wants to take it off me? I don't think so mate, you're authorised to f**k right the f**k off.

Actually it is normal at German night clubs. That this is more inconvenient for foreigners does not make it any less normal and common-practiced. Germans and foreigners are treated equally by the night clubs, that the only form identity proof foreigners seem to have is the passport is not the night clubs' fault.

Punchbear, you're over 18, no one would ask to keep your passport. This is only done with between 16 and 18 year olds, i.e. kids that are allowed in a night club but still have a curfew (midnight).
The problem is not that night clubs do this but that foreigners cannot get some other kind of ID to identify themselves with, and that is a problem that has to be addressed by the government, not the night club.

But just because it is 'normal' does NOT mean foreigners should comply or that anyone in fact should think it's acceptable. That's the point I'm trying to make here.

But you do not have to comply! No one is forcing you to give them your passport, you can just turn around to leave.

If one wanted to don their tin foil hat, one could postulate that it might be an effective way to keep foreigners out of their clubs.

Well, I am German and have never been to a club were this is required, and I would never hand out my passport nor my ID card to some disco bouncer.

Mariposa: agreed, and that is what I am hoping foreigners would do - just leave. Not just blindly turn over their ID because some bouncer demanded it. Part of what was originally asked was 'is this normal', to which we can probably answer 'yes'. But I just don't want people to get a false sense of security because it's (possibly) common practice.

Sure, still the same principle though. If I was just over 18 and would possibly be carded do you thnk I'd go out on the lash
with a doccument peotentially worth several hundred Euros and difficult to replace?

Back in the days when I was baby faced i remember getting carded in rural South Carolina and they were somewhat confused about seeing a British Passport.

Actually, we're not exclusively talking about kids here.

Well, then let's do a hand count, which non-Germans here have actually been asked for their passport to gain entrance to a night club?

I raise my hand for Paderborn, summer 1996. Didn't hand it over, went back to Irish bar.

There is one way for a minor to get into the club without leaving his passport (if they should demand it) with the bouncer:
Being accompanied by an adult, who can proof he has some kind of educational relation to the kid. That would be relatives, teacher, trainer, Aupair, ...

Really? That is really odd. I have never been asked to do that (with my ID), I just know they do it with underage kids because of the curfew. In that case I'd also leave because you have plenty of other places to go.
Getting asked for the ID is normal as a (young) adult (being carded) but not getting asked to hand it over.

Someone suggested taking a certified copy instead. I am not sure if that would work but it would be worth a try! A certified copy can be attained easily and is not worth a lot either.

Furthermore you could ask at your consulate what they suggest to do. Maybe they have another solution for this issue that we haven't thought of here.

If you're 18 you probably have a drivers license or student-id or else which proves you're over 18.

Not really, just Paderborn.


Them feckers won't even wash our flag. Lejeune, you reading this? Get that flag washed ya skivin' shite ya.

If the lad wants to go to this particular club regularly I would suggest going with him and discussing the problem with the staff to come up with an alternative solution, maybe a photocopy of the passport verified and stamped by the club would be considered acceptable. Otherwise campaign your consulate for an alternative form of ID. Driving license may also be an alternative - but I assume he hasn't got one yet?

I think the best solution is just to go to another club that doesn't ask to keep your passport. Not all of them do; in fact I in my personal experience would say that most don't.

Earlier this afternoon I did ask a German cop about this who said that yes, it does happen, and it happens for the reasons our German TT friends have already mentioned - mostly to make sure young people are adhering to curfew. But you are obviously never required to turn over your passport and he didn't recommend that foreigners do this.

So, as DK said quite a few posts ago, it comes back to foreigners needing to have another form of ID that is considered valid in Germany and that isn't so expensive and difficult to replace.

I have never been asked for my identification anywhere other than at the airport or when signing a mobile phone contract. And the only form of ID I have is my passport.

Plenty people don't have a driving licence either.

As for ID being demanded off adults, can't remember it ever happening to me though I have seen it with other people.
Last time I saw it they couldn't produce any ID and they were denied entrance to the club.
They looked like they were from a Turkish background. Funny co-incidence that.

That unfortunately depends on whether or not the bouncer has anything between his ears; I've never given up my passport to get into a club but have sometimes been able to persuade them that my German driving license or my Aufenthsaltserlaubnis is an acceptable form of ID.
Mind you I did encounter one in Berlin who informed me that the Aufenthsaltserlaubnis "is not a Pass and not a proper ID".

I got carded at the octoberfest. I was 24 at the time.

Just last year then ER.

close enough

Nope, they won't accept it as a valid form of ID at the KVR either, even though they used to issue them and the Aufenthaltserlaubnis basically had all the characteristics I'd associate with a valid form of ID in a normal country outside Germany, like say an official stamp, a photo of the holder, DOB, address etc. Anyways, this one's been done before.

Update: Oh, wait and another thing, the last time I was doon the Arbeitsamt (while ago now), yer woman freaked at me when I handed her a rag that used to be my Aufenthaltserlaubnis, "wie können Sie das Ihrem Aufenthaltserlaubnis antun? Unverschämt, Sie sind so priviligiert hier wohnen zu dürfen. Und Sie reichen mir sowas über? Unakzeptabel. So behandeln Sie Deutsches Eigentum."

Well, lobster-faced Beamterlady, if your government took some of those rather high taxes, maybe played round a little bit with the EU boyos, got the thumb out for a change, perhaps a satisfactory ID card scheme for EU citizens living in Germany could be implemented, maybe even a pan EU ID card, like the Euro basically, ey? So then things like that won't happen to the cheap flimsy piece of paper, the one whose inevitable wear-and-tear over 5 years in my wallet, you take to represent my pissing all over your existence and culture, the one that I'm obliged to carry everywhere with me for 5 years but can't use as ID, even though it PHOTOGRAPHICALLY IDENTIFIES ME as the person allowed to stay and work in your country and contribute to your economy and your salary, the one that's uselessness as a formal form of ID obliges me to carry around an expensive piece of long-term identification, a document that I'm beholden by my government to look after and treat with due respect? F**k that shit. The mind still boggles and will continue to do so. And I know, the Aufenthaltserlaubnis thingy is no longer an issue with that little piece of paper they give you now. But still. ID cards please, otherwise I'll just bill the KVR for my next two short-term passports after the 10-year one's been worn out after 2 in my pocket. Nubfeckery.

Thanks for all the interesting responses. Just to clarify, apparently it is only the kids who are between 16 and 18 who were expected to hand in their Ausweis/ID. There was apparently a pile for the Germans and a pile for the non-Germans (mostly Turkish) so an Australian one was pretty easy to pick out. At around midnight the "minors" were apparently reminded they have to be out by midnight (they apparently know they face a fine if they are there any longer). People over 18 were not required to surrender their ID.

This is certainly an interesting theme to take up with the local politician - but then again as we can't vote and are not EU members - who would care? My only concern is his passport isn't stolen and my son comes home safely. My son seemed to think that it was relatively safe and that someone would have trouble getting past the 3 burley bouncers. Still, an Australian passport could be quite a temptation and we'd have to suffer the consequences of getting a replacement if it were stolen. As many of the comments from the locals with an Ausweis suggest - the consequences of losing an Ausweis are not as horrendous or as expensive as having to replace a passport. Surrendering one's passport to an unknown third person (burley or not) may not be illegal but certainly does not seem the right thing to do. Perhaps my son will wait until he's over 18 for his next visit!

Getting another sort of ID is not possible - our only ID is our Australian Passport - that's why I am so protective of it.

Koala: Yes, I did think that if he was going to make this a regular thing I might have a chat to the owner - but that didn't go down too well with my son!

I really wonder what the consequences are for the disco - if a passport disappeared...

Arbeitsamt Beamtin in arrogant rascist shocker!

That's up on a par with the one that threw me out of the Arbeitsamt with the immortal words:

"You think you can come over here and take our jobs"

I see the logic behind the clubs employing this policy but I don't get why foreigners can't get some other form of valid ID. That's what needs to change.

The Bundestag was discussing this issue in January:
http://www.bundestag.de/aktuell/hib/2007/2007_010/01.html (only German)

Basically they say, they will take steps towards the EU to create a EU-wide residence Id card for non-citizens.

ER has a point. So I looked around and found this:
http://www.bundestag.de/aktuell/hib/2007/2007_010/01.html


So it might only be a matter of time until Non-EU-foreigners get a german or european ID, to replace their passport.

EDIT: Ok he was faster.

It's a step in the right direction. Any developments on this proposal?