I'm planning to study abroad

Hello.

I've been looking into traveling abroad at some point in the next couple of years. A family friend told me that if I wanted to be able to support myself abroad, I'd better start preparing now. And that's what I'm doing.

Unfortunately, as an American starting his senior year of high school, I'm not certain how visas, work permits, and other policies work; I also don't know how to go about transferring to a school in Germany (I am planning on taking classes there in my second year of college, after a year of general education). In addition to my unfamiliarity with these systems, I don't have an inkling of truly reliable and honest information about the cultural climate of Germany and where I should plan on staying for certain interests. I'd greatly appreciate if anyone who has been there, or is living there, could fill me in on this information.

In case you need extra information, I'll supply some right now; I plan on obtaining employment soon to save up money to support myself. I also plan on working there, both to help pay for necessities and for the experience (you can't learn a language without a little bit of immersion). I want to take some introductory classes in German, but I don't know if that's a possibility other than in my first year of college. I know one other language, Spanish, but I'm not fluent and I'm still very slow. And that's just about it. I hope that helps.

Welcome to Germany

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/welcome/w...to_germany.html

http://deutschland.de/home.php?lang=2&

You sound quite mature for your age, which is definitely a good thing if you plan on traveling abroad.

Before I came to Germany, I did all of my preparation and research on the internet, regarding visas, work permits, housing, language schools, culture, climate, etc... Then I said to my folks, "OK. I'm ready to go to Germany now." I'm pretty sure you can find the information you're looking for on the internet too, if you know the right places to look. TT is a very good start, especially for the questions you have as they're frequently asked.

There are two important things that I point out:
1. If you want to go to uni here (if I read correctly), it's not as easy as just "transferring schools". First, you need to have awesome German, and second, will you get accepted? Of course, you could do some exchange program if you just want a bit of a feel of Germany, but that's probably not what you're after.
2. You "plan" on working here, but will you get a job? If you can't, then what?

If I were you, I'd be learning German now in my spare time.

If you are not coming here as an international student (not exchange student) you have to pass a quite hard German test (the DSH) to be able to take classes here.

At my university (Heidelberg), as an exchange student you can take classes at a "special" department for int'l students without passing the DSH, but for the real experience it would of course be better to be able to take classes at any department you like.

Many American universities have exchange programs with German universities and that would probably be your best bet if you want to go to university here right away. I am not sure if it would be possible to then transfer to a German university, but I wouldn't rule it out.

If you need more babying (not meant in a bad way, exchange students here are really pretty much left on their own, and have to figure out everything by themselves), there is a program: http://www.heidelberg.edu/ajy/ by Heidelberg College in Tiffin, Ohio (you do not have to be from Heidelberg College to participate) but it is quite expensive, and also as the name says, intended for juniors. And you would not be able to pick a German university but end up in Heidelberg (which happens to be one of the most prestigious public universities in Germany and quite the nice place to live, though, so it wouldn't be too bad).

Getting a visa would not be such a problem, as far as I know it is fairly easy to get one if you are going to study at a university here.

Thanks for the speedy replies.

As for learning German before I get here, I've got a lot of spare time on my hands that I could put to use taking some introductory courses or somesuch, but that may not be enough for what you're talking about. Having "awesome German" sounds very... intimidating. Are we talking fluent?

And educational opportunities... well, I'm not sure how well I'd qualify. Maybe some kind of exchange program would be better for me, but I'm not sure that's what I'm looking for. Mainly, I want to come to experience something different from suburban America, but I'm not looking for just a party year. I would like to actually get things done and to study.

I may be WAY too optimistic about this, but it's something that I'm interested in doing. According to some sources, it costs about 1,300 USD per month on average to live in Germany, but that's not area specific, and doesn't include tuition, etc. However, I plan on saving all of the money that I earn in the next two years or so, spending only in miserly amounts, so that, in the case that I cannot or do not get a job, I'll have enough money to support myself.

My biggest concern, though, is these language requirements. Is two years enough time to learn enough German to live there?

From what I have seen from the exchange students here, they do both. It is harder here to get good grades (not just because of the language barrier) and they all need very good grades as they count towards their GPA, so they do study. They just party as well.

Tuition is €500 a semester at most public universities, but if you are here as an exchange student, you will still pay your full-time enrollment (12 credits usually) tuition at your US school.
Getting a job, not that hard really. If you're looking for a part time job, and are no picky, it should be fairly easy to find one. It took me exactly one day to find the job I have now.

The language would also be my biggest concern if I was you, to be honest. Two years is tough, but can be done if you take lots of classes, most importantly get speaking practice! You'll have to work very hard. You could also maybe spend a summer here and take classes in Germany for two months, that way you'd get a taste of the country, and it would be more efficient than taking classes in the States. You do not have to be fluent, I am not entirely sure about the exact level of German required (I am German, I just know a lot of American exchange students here) by the DSH (but some others here have taken it as far as I know, maybe they can help you), but if you want to get your degree here, and in something other than English Lit/Linguistics, it would be advisable to be more or less fluent, as most classes are held in German.

My university also offers what is called a Kolleg: http://www.zuv.uni-heidelberg.de/AAA/engli...o_hd_sprach.htm
You take intensive German classes for a year or so, before you start your actual studies. A girl I know is doing this, she is Brazilian, and I was really impressed with her level of German after just a few months (of taking German classes & living here). (Though as far as I know, she is not starting the Kolleg until this fall, so it will be two years in Germany before she starts studying at university.)

I am always using Heidelberg as an example, because that is my school, and the one I know best, I am at least a bit familiar with the rules and regulations here. They should be similar at other schools.

Hope this helps.

I'm not entirely certain what I plan on doing with my life; I've got a few vague ideas together. I do know that I want to get out and experience different things, though. So basically, I'm looking to get some of my general education done (a light load, though, to allow for studying German and seeing the country), learn a new language, and just expand my horizons a bit.

And this is the problem I run into. Is this unrealistic? Most people I talk to who traveled during or after college seem to think I can do it, but I may be misunderstanding something.

Well, of course you can do it, as long as you can afford it. So basically you just want to live here for a while, learn some new things, but not necessarily get a degree?
I think you can do that but to be enrolled (and stay enrolled) in uni here many universities expect you to have taken certain classes by a certain time, else you will be kicked out. There is a thing called "Gasthörer" which essentially means you would be a guest, have a right to go to classes but not get a degree. But then you would probably not be able to get your student visa.
They are also currently re-structuring German universities to Bachelor/Master right now, so a lot of things will change (which I have no clue about as I am studying on the old system).
Enrolling for a Geisteswissenschaften (humanities/arts) major (literature, history, philosophy, etc.) would probably be best for you though. (You cannot be enrolled on Gen Ed, as we do not do any of that in university, you only usually take classes pertaining to your major, or interest).
But actually unless you want to stay here for longer than a year, I would try to get into an exchange program, as this would actually still get you some credits for your US college/degree.
But if you do not mind "losing" some time (I personally do not think it is lost time, but you'd be older than the average BA/S graduate in the States by the time you graduate), I think almost anything is possible if you really want it (of course within financial limits, but university here is a lot cheaper than in the States).
I spent a year in the States, and am about to move to Spain for a year, and I will be 26 by the time I graduate with my MA but it'll be worth it, especially because I am also not too sure yet what I want to do with my life after uni, like you I do have some vague ideas, but no plan.

Which reminds me of a joke the DJ on the radio made this morning, a cab driver called in, and the DJ said, "let me guess you studies English and Romance Lit?" (These are my majors, unemployment rates are quite high for graduates of the humanities/arts )

I did my exchange year in Heidelberg.
Basically, I always knew I wanted to travel or live abroad or something that was not rural suburban america. So I can relate.
At the university I went to we had to do two years (actually 5 trimesters) of a foreign language to qualify for an exchange program. The university I went to offered (for German) an exchange to Graz, Austria or Heidelberg, Germany. So I applied at the beginning of my second year of German and was accepted to Heidelberg.
Now - my German when I arrived sucked - not because it was only a year, but because the prof. was using the course as a test for his new language learning theories. So after 2 years of German I got here and could ask a basic question, but could not understand the answer.
Anyway, when I showed up in Heidelberg, I took a language proficiency test, should have been placed in the remedial beginner class, was sent to the middle level classes and bullshitted my way into the Studienkolleg (that Mariposa mentioned). So for the first semester I was not a "proper student" but I spent 20 hours a week in German lessons - 15 of which were a grammar class.
As a student you are also restricted in how much you can work here - it was the first time since I was 14 that I was not working while going to school.
So I spent every evening in the student bar with people who did not speak German to me and my German improved by leaps and bounds.
I passed the language test in April - with better grades than the other american exchange students who were placed at that level to start with. And I took courses at the university the next semester.
One advantage of doing a "recognized" exchange program is that your university in the states will have to accept the credits, otherwise you may have difficulties getting your work here recognized over there.

Well, here's a snag that makes me think that I may not be able to do it: I'm going to have to attend commumity college in this area for at least a year for general ed before I'm going anywhere. Even with excellent grades, will a German University or any kind of exchange program accept me?

There are so many routes you can take. Yes, you can apply directly here - they will be very discouraging. You can wait two years of college and then apply through an exchange program. You can sell your car and most of your stuff, move here and apply. Check out the community college - the one in my home town was affiliated with the state university and therefore with their exchange programs.

But it must be possible somehow because there are so many Chinese studying at my university, there are loads of them in the business courses at least. And a friend of mine, who has studied medicine in Gießen, told me that it is the same there.

I don't know how they do it exactly but I think many of them spend a year or so in Germany to learn German and pass the DSH-test. Afterwards they apply to university. In my opinion these guys take a high risk and I do also know that many of them do not graduate, but it is possible to come to Germany for studying without being fluent in German.
The level of German required to pass the DSH-test can't be that high because I have got the impression that many of the Chinese fellow students did not speak fluently.

Another thing to keep in mind: Since you are only going to do one year of college in the US, make sure your high school degree and one year of college will be evaluated to be equivalent to a German school leaving degree (Abitur), as else you might have trouble getting accepted. (Do this especially when you are only planning to go to a community college.)

I can't add any ideas of my own but anybody thinking about studying in Germany should be able to find answers to most questions on www.daad.de

No, your vision is realistic. I am doing what you're thinking about doing. It's funny, because I was actually thinking the exact same thing with the same wording last year when I was back in Australia planning to come here: "learn a new language, and just expand my horizons a bit."

Having said that, some younger people aren't suited for this type of experience.

The question is, do you believe in yourself? Do you think you're capable? If you are, then seize the opportunity!

The Chinese in China are hardcore when it comes to education and learning, so I'm not surprised that heaps of them get accepted into German universities. As for their German, they may not be fluent and probably never will be, but I reckon they're pretty good in terms of grammar and vocabulary.

Dude, how come you're not around my age? You're like 27 or something???

Ever heard of CBYX? I did it a few years ago and it would fit your requirements of learning German, studying in Germany, travel and learning about yourself and what sort of career path you would like to follow. You don't need to already speak any German at all to apply; comprised of two months language course, one semester Uni study and then 5-6 months praktikum. Best part is, the State Deparment picks up a large portion of the cost and organisation. You should check it out if interested...

Why don't you concentrate on improving your Spanish and spend a year in Spain instead?

There are a few other ways to avoid having to have a year of college before being accepted to a German university; I don't know if you found all of the details or not.

The anabin database ("Anerkennung und Bewertung ausländischer Bildungsnachweise") is maintained by the Zentralstelle für ausländisches Bildungswesen (ZAB) to provide information on the recognition of foreign documents for university admissions, etc. (http://www.ifos.de/anabin/)

Information on entrance to German universities with a US high school diploma can be found at http://213.157.12.18/Xml/xmlZeugnis.asp?ID...124&Mode=BV

With a high school diploma with a 3.0 or above cumulative GPA, you can be accepted to a Studienkolleg.

With a high school diploma with a 3.0 or above cumulative GPA and the following you can be accepted directly to all courses of study:
-SAT score (verbal+math) of 1300 or above OR ACT score of 28 or above
OR
-satisfactory results on four Advanced Placement tests (I'm not sure what score is required) including English Lit. or English Lang. and Composition; French, Spanish, Latin, or German; Calculus AB, Calculus BC, Biology, Chemistry, or Physics--both parts); and one additional AP exam

The German Academic Exchange Service (DAAD) has two wonderful websites: daad.de (German/global site) and daad.org (the US site). They also have the admissions information available in a more user friendly (and translated) format: http://www.daad.de/deutschland/wege-durchs...g/06159.en.html
In addition they have a wealth of other information and even scholarship programs.

While all of the normal courses of study will require German competence to be shown by the passing of a test or fulfilling certain other substitute requirements, there are also international degree programs that are growing in popularity that could certainly be considered. You can check those out at http://www.daad.de/idp

I came over here with an exchange program and then took the DSH that someone else mentioned to be able to enroll in the university here as a normal student.

If you are planning on enrolling in any German university as a normal student and not just for a year as a foreign exchange student, you will need to pass it. There is no way around it. It is difficult, but if you have good language skills, it shouldn't be impossible for you. I spoke pretty much only German 24/7 for the second half of my first year here, and I was able to pass it without problems. I had six years of German in high school and college in the US before that, though.

As far as the tuition goes, you really need to be careful. If you come with an exchange program from an American university, you will most likely have to pay tuition to them, then pay a "program fee" as well (for me, six years ago it was several hundred dollars per semester), then the German university may want to see money as well depending on if your program involves a kind of tuition waiver between the two universities or not.

Beginning next semester, pretty much all German universities will begin charging 500 Euro per semester as tuition. There are another 200 Euro in fees (administrative fee, public transport ticket, etc.) on top of that so you are talking 700 Euro per semester. Last I heard, though, some universities were talking about charging foreign students an extra 500 or 1000 Euro per semester, so like I said be careful.

As far as needing 1300 per month to live on, I would say that's way too much. You can probably get decent student housing through the university for less than 200 a month, but that's just room without board. If you are very very frugal, you can get by on 400 to 500 for room and board, and you'll have to pay another 60 Euro a month for student health insurance. These cost estimates are of course dependent on the city and region you might land in.

I see that most people here have been pretty encouraging, so I just wanted to mention the fact that if you do not come with a program lined up through a university, you will most likely encounter beaurocratic resistance from the University and from the government. At least, this was my experience. If you seem to them to be a loner or somehow swimming against the current, they don't go out of their way to help you get what you need, so be prepared to hear "no" alot. I tell you this so that you don't let it discourage you. Just know that it is coming and be persistent.

And learn German. One of the best ways to do this is -- once your language skills are far enough along -- to get reading materials about things you are interested in (maybe a hobby like sailing or comic books or something) in German. It will help you to absorb the language much more painlessly.

Well I took the DSH just after I moved to Frankfurt which was 7 years ago. My German was nowhere near the standard it is now and even then I thought it was pretty easy and got a 1 for it. You will need to work hard for it but it is certainly possible.

Good luck whatever you choose.

Yeah, I just know a bunch of the exchange students did not pass it after taking an intensive course for a few weeks after they came to Germany (they come here in late August, so they have intensive German classes until mid-October), and many of them don't pass it (they also took classes before in the States, some are German major or minors). But I guess it all depends on your attitude. If you work hard you can do it, but start learning German now.

That's true for sure, but it has nothing to do with you being a foreigner. I think that you will agree on this. When I began studying here the "Prüfungsamt"= examination office (?) of the business department still had its old staff, which consisted basically of two middle-aged ladies. A mate of mine used to call them "Prüfungsamt-Nazis" because they were so unfriendly. The ladies were replaced later on but many of the assistants of our Profs were not better. What? You ring the doorbell outside office hours?...
A lot of public servants in Germany are unmotivated, but these people are probably belonging to the most lazy ones. Is it any better in Heidelberg or Gießen? I can't imagine...

Thanks for the continued replies; I am still checking back here to read your advice, but I don't have much to input.

Definitely, though, I will have to continue looking into this and researching the possibilities. Thanks all.

I agree with eugene_ac in so far, that this has nothing to do with you being a foreigner. But the lack of assistance for new students is not so much because of lazy bureaucrats - it follows from the common view, that students (or wannabes-) at a university are supposed to be smart, educated and most importantly able to act on one's own initiative. "If you cant find out on your own, which courses to take or when or where they take place, your probably not meant to study at a german university." German students suffer by this stance as much as everyone.

Some years ago in Berlin I wanted to attend some courses at the Uni there as a Gasthörer, and the registration office were rather unhelpful and negative, telling me "that`s what the Volkshochschule`s for". I got what I wanted, but I felt like saying, in that case why do you offer the Gasthörer option? Dont you want extra fee income for additional "bums on seats"?!

Yeah, here you definitely have to be persistent and show initiative if you ever want anything. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and most definitely not in German university bureaucracy. That is another reason I would never transfer to another school - at least here I now know how everything works.

True that.
If anything, foreign students get *more* help than German students in terms of advising, registration, and other bureaucratic matters.
The level of support is still much, much lower than it is in the US, though.

highered, yes, it is, and I think it all boils down to the money. Americans pay more for their education, but they also get more. Classes are often smaller, they get more help, service, facilities are nicer... but I still wouldn't want to pay $10,000 per year for that.

No, it's not really to do with being a foreigner, although that certainly doesn't help matters much. Trouble with the language, being unfamiliar with the system, being unused to the unfriendly/unhelpful nature of many (but not all) people you will encounter in the university and government beaurocracy can all hit you pretty hard at once, so I just wanted to be sure that Korbonis knew that it wasn't just a matter of filling out a couple forms, paying some cash and hopping on a plane. Pretty much all of the frustrations I am referring to, though, are dealing with the case that you are here alone not part of an official exchange program. If you are here with a program, life is much easier.

There is much more support from the international studies office, since they depend on students going back to their home universities happy with their exchange experience to keep their jobs. If there were a substantial number of students coming back from, say, Heidelberg university telling their program coordinators back in the US that it was awful, less and less international students will choose to come to Heidelberg and the university would begin to take a serious look at what was going on the with the international office there.

However, if you are alone, not in a program, just trying to get into a university without an American university behind you, no one is really motivated to help you much. I know when my time here as a program student ended and I decided to stay on on my own, things went from easy to complicated in a matter of weeks.

No, Giessen is no exception to what you're talking about. Of course, the switch from the old Diplom system that had been in place for something like, at least fifty years, right? to Bachelor-Master created a certain amount of turmoil and confusion within the university beaurocracy and it seemed like a lot of people didn't know what was going on or what was going to happen, so they just answered "no" as a way to safeguard themselves. The risk in being the beaurocrat that lets someone do something that they shouldn't be able to do according the rules is greater than being the beaurocrat who does the opposite and mistakenly holds you back.


I'd be interested in knowing more about what made you look at Germany. Are you looking at other possible countries as well? Didn't you say you had some experience with Spanish? Why not check out Spain or Portugal?


Only as long as you're with a program. After that, all I heard was "No, no no. Sorry, can't help you."

It's largely a question of money, indeed. Having worked at both American and German universities, I have had the opportunity to see the things that work well and not so well in both systems. Despite the high cost of American higher education, I would argue that US universities are actually *more* accessible than German universities. (Early tracking in grade school, changing Prüfungsordnungen, long time to degree, and haphazard course offerings in Germany, for example, plus better financial aid and scholarship mechanisms in the US are some of the things that lead to that assessment.)


It's largely a matter of luck and finding the right person, I suppose. But a persistent foreign student should be able to find someone in the int'l student office who might be willing to help. It helps a lot if the student has a clear plan.

The new international BA programs offer a good bit of structure and can be a good place for international students who are looking to complete a degree in Germany.

Trust me, any German confronted with university bureaucracy for the first time is just as confused as an int'l student. It is new to all students at one point. Sure there is the language barrier, but bureaucracy itself is not any better for Germans.

About getting a degree faster, it depends on what kind of degree you want. You can get a BA in 3 years here. A Diplom or Magister is going to take longer, but it is also valued a little higher than a BA, closer to a Master's degree (also if you choose to go an academic career, the next step after a diploma/MA is the PhD).

What I do find easier about the US system is how everything is so "verschult", you sit in a class, you get homework, you know exactly what to study for when and you have several tests, not just one big one. One of my profs here does it this way as well, and while the workload is really high, I prefer this to the "German" seminar style any day.

I may still go to Spain. Or Italy. Or any number of countries. There are a lot of possibilities. I'm examining opportunities in Germany right now, though, because German seems like a more useful language to know than Spanish (it may be that my proximity to Mexico here in Southern California influences that opinion) and because Germany's culture piques my interest more than Spanish or Portuguese culture does.

However, I am still in research stage. I may end up going somewhere else, but that's what the research is for; so I can be informed and well-prepared when I do make my decision.

Europe in general is looking attractive because of my family's financial standing. Student loans can be bank breakers later on, and European universities seem to be just as good as American ones (maybe with a bit more hassle), but for less money.

How is Spanish less useful to you than German? You live within proximity to the largest population of Spanish-speakers in the world.

... in which case I'd recommend visiting NotesFromSpain.com - written by a British ex-pat and his Spanish wife, with an excellent podcast and forum. They even have podcasts for learning Spanish and give lessons on Skype!

Staying with Germany, you might like to listen to this podcast about my experience when I moved here. I had a book called Live & Work in Germany which was very helpful as it described a lot of the bureaucracy but also a lot of the customs, eg. how people behave in offices.

However, I had the advantage of speaking German before I came. I'd suggest trying to find a private teacher who can give you intensive lessons to get up to speed in time.

I would advise against picking the country of your higher education based on the perceived utility of the language spoken in that country. I think you are better off picking your university on the basis of a course of study you are interested in in a locale where you would like to be.


It may well end up cheaper for you to study in Europe, but I would caution against comparing sticker price to sticker price. Unless you are able to get a scholarship for study in Germany (which isn't likely for undergraduate study for a US citizen), you aren't going to be eligible for any of the government support available to either German or US students. No subsidized loans, no grants, etc. Plus, you may need to factor in the increased likelihood of a longer time to degree in Germany than in the US (however, if you know what you are doing from the start and don't let seeing students in their 12th, 16th, 20th (and higher!) semester of study put you off from finishing, you *can* graduate in a reasonable amount of time in Germany).

highered, if korbonis is going to study here in two years, he will be going into a BA program anyway, the Magister/diploma program is being faded out, so he can get his degree (Bachelor) in three years (the normal time), actually faster than he would in the States.
12th semester is relatively normal for a Magister or diploma, but then that is closer to a Master's degree than a diploma.
I will be done with my degree after 7.5 years, but that includes two years abroad and I didn't start my second major until the 3rd semester.

Very good advice. And so true regarding the scholarships as I discovered. I should have been clearer before when I mentioned hearing "no" all the time. That was usually in a situation where I was looking for ways to finance myself. Here's another tip: take the information you find regarding finances (prices/scholarships) on the websites of German universities with a grain of salt. I used a website from the international studies office here at my university a couple years ago and found all kinds of "scholarship" offers that I was eligible for. When I went to speak to the woman responsible, I waited for hours outside her office only to be let in and find out within five minutes that the entire website was obsolete. The scholarships no longer existed, the money was no longer there, the university was in a financial crisis, etc. I suppose they hadn't even had the money to pay an IT person to update their website so they just left it like that.

The financial situation in the German university system is changing quite a bit right now as I mentioned before. Up until about a year ago, there was no tuition, for example. Now, they're demanding tutition, but there isn't really much of a scholarship structure in place to compensate. I have read news articles here saying that the tuition will be waived after the first two or three semesters for those who maintain a certain grade point average (I assume this only applies to German students, though), but no real details were available on the university website. Most students will be offered a standard loan from the state government to finance their studies or they will have to pay up front if they are able.

All of that info above from highered is correct, though. As a US citizen you are not eligible for a "Bildungskredit" from the state gov, which is what I described above. At my university, as a US citizen, you are not eligible for any loan from the government period. There is only one loan (not to exceed 1000 Euro) available to foreign students here directly from the university, but you have to have a German citizen who can prove their income is at a certain level co-sign with you and be in your final semester.


True, but this could also depend on his major and, of course, on his language skills. I talked to some of the students here in the first group that is starting in the new Bachelor-Master system and they said it was pretty clear that most people would still take just as long to get to the Master as it took to get the Diplom. It seems like the general concensus is that that course load (at least in our subject) in the new system is a bit heavier, so that could lead to a longer study time, too.

Okay, I can see where it could look that way. Tutition is incredibly low compared to American universities. Yes, the quality of education is just as good (in my opinion much better, but that's another discussion). Here are some other things you need to take into consideration, though, that I wish someone had asked me five years ago.

Are you planning on flying back and forth to the US to see your family one or more times a year? Obviously, you would need to do this while your university is out on summer/spring/christmas break. Summer and Christmas are high season for airlines. How much does a round trip to your part of the US from Germany cost? To get to where my family lives during high season it's about 1100 US$ roundtrip for a student ticket.

What do you plan on studying? If you apply directly to the university system, you are more likely to be accepted if you are studying somthing like chemistry, physics, or mathematics where the number of students is low.

What do you plan on doing after graduation? Will a degree from a German university be as accepted in your field of work as one from an American university?

If you come here with a program from a US university, you will have a scholarship for that year, but after that, you will be on your own. You will need to apply to the German university and be accepted, pass the DSH mentioned earlier, and reapply for a study visa from the immigration office. In my experience, they will only give you a visa, when you can prove that you have the money ahead of time. For example, they have a figure like 600 Euro that you need per month to live here. You go to the immigration office to lengthen your visa for a year, they ask for a printout of your bank account balance, which shows you only have 3000 Euro. They say, well, 3000 / 600 = 5, so you get your visa lengthen for five months, see you again soon. This can go on for years. At some point they may begin hassling you asking you how much longer it's going to take, demanding to see your grades, exams, etc...

The German university that you study at will most likely not accept any of your courses from the US, so you will be starting again from scratch.

As far as the finances go, I know you said you want to work here. Assuming you can find a job, will you cope well with working at a low-paying job (remember you have no qualifications, and don't speak the language fluently) while carrying a heavy course load and simultaneously trying to master a foreign language? A student visa here will only allow you to work for 90 days a year, will that be enough to feed and house yourself and save up thousands of dollars to show the immigration office every six months? What will you do if you get fired (don't think it can't happen to you because it did to me at the worst possible time)?

Like I said, these are all things that I wish someone had had me sit down and think about before I decided to get a degree here. I guess I was just woefully unprepared for all the things that could go wrong, so they hit me pretty hard. As I wrote before, I don't want this to sound completely discouraging to you like this is something that can't be done, because obviously it can. IMO it is basically a question of money, connections, and cooperation on the German side of things. If any one of those three things is missing, it gets difficult quickly.

1) Spanish seems less useful to me maybe because a lot of people in this area speak Spanish, many fluently. Therefore, it's value as a skill for later on in life seems proportionally less to me.

2) I've been trying not to base my decision off of how useful each language is, but as much as I want to spend time in another country to absorb the culture, I don't want it to be a wasted year as far as preparation and learning of skills goes. You only have time to learn so many languages.

3) Money (in reasonable amounts) should not be too much of a problem for me. To pay for living expenses when my job doesn't cut it, or if I have no job at all, I'll be joining the work force over here and begin saving money. I estimate that, part-time, I can earn around 10,000 dollars a year (?) , which after two years, will give me a sizable savings from which to draw, even after exchange rates are factored in. That way, I've got an emergency cushion without having to fall back on my parents/grandparents for loans just to pay my rent.

4) I don't plan on flying back to visit family and friends often; or at least, I don't now. That may change later on, but for now, my plan is to go to a different country for a solid nine months to a year. After that, it'll probably be back to the States for me, at least for a little while. Expatriating seems too far in the future to worry about now, if I even choose that route.

Again, thanks for all the replies. I'm really glad I asked about all this; I wouldn't have thought of a lot of these complications and options on my own.

And what is wrong with that. Taking 5-6 years for a Master's (3+2 or 4+1-2) is as long as you'd take in the US as well (4+2). As far as I know the way it is planned is 3 years for a BA/S and 2 more for an MA/S but there are programs as well (one offered here at my university, a Master of Arts in American Studies) that only take one year - and no there is no option to take longer somehow, either you make it in one year or you're out.

Just because some people never get their degrees does not say anything about how long it would take korbonis or anyone else for that matter to get theirs.

I personally am not rushing my way through university because I have nowhere to go (no definite plans yet for afterwards), and I want to enjoy this time of my life which also allows me to develop interests in things, broaden my horizons by living and studying abroad, and decide on what I want to do with the rest of my life. I do not consider it a waste of time.

I cannot comment on the course load because I am not that familiar with the new system and they are only just this fall switching to the BA/MA system in my majors, but what I gathered is that the amount of work to be done has not been lessened considerably, but the time in which this has to be achieved has been shortened, so that would mean on average the courseload would be a bit heavier.

Which subject do you teach?

Oh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it at all. It's a good program, if you are set on getting through in those six years. I guess the general feeling I get, though, at least from the other students in my subject, is what you said above. The specific material covered in the curriculum is roughly the same, maybe here a little more, there a little less, but the names have been changed, and the time has been shortened. I also heard rumors of a "two fail rule" or something to that effect that in the new program, you would only get two shots at passing any given "module" as they're calling them now. If you don't make it on the second try, you're out of university or have to switch your major or something else horrible happens. Like I said, though, that was just a rumor I heard.

I don't teach anything. I'm just finishing up my Diplom in Math. Hopefully just a couple more months and I'll have it all behind me. I understand what you are saying about enjoying your time and experiences at the university, and that is definitely the right attitude for any foreign exchange experience. Especially if you're only here for a year.

I personally just got frustrated with the slow, sleepy pace of my department and the courses that I needed not being offered as well as an unpleasant experience with getting some inaccurate information from a prof while I tried to keep things above water financially, so I'm kind of ready to leave the university and start a new experience.

Well, in that case, you'll be much better off than I was. If you only want to go somewhere for nine months, just go to whatever American university you were planning on going to anyway, then spend your junior year (that seems to be pretty much the standard age) abroad either with a program through your university, or with a program like ISIP (International Student Exchange Program) that (as far as I understand it) is independent of any specific university. You pay them a fee, tell them where you want to go, and they show you the spots they've got available.

Seems like most Americans take some time during their year abroad after classes have let out in the summer and spend a month or so traveling. If you've got a visa for a year, there's no need to rush home if you don't have to. Like Mariposa said, enjoy your time wherever you are.

Good luck.

We already had that rule in some classes before.
We have a Orientierungsprüfung here (here being Baden-Württemberg), which consists of two classes (at least for my major, it's different for every major), Intro to Literature and Intro to Linguistics, and you can only fail it once, fail it twice, you cannot study that major ever again in the entire state. You also have to pass both before the end of the 2nd semester (at least technically, but they actually do not check till the end of the 3rd semester). Oh, and in Spanish these classes are only offered every other semester, so if you fail the one offered in your 2nd semester, you always need to get an extension to even get a 2nd try.
And as far as I remember there are also some other classes that have this rule, you can really only relax and take as long as you want once you have passed the Zwischenprüfung.

And sorry, I confused you with highered, I meant to ask him/her...

While the goal is to implement BA/MA programs across German universities, it will likely end up taking a bit more time before all courses of study at all universities have reoriented themselves.
Also important to note is the fact that the published number of years to earn a degree are based on ideal circumstances, and while the German universities are trying to introduce controls and incentives to get students through, I think it's going to be an uphill battle, at lest at first.


There isn't a whole lot of money to add course sections, etc. and I think that and other factors are going to make what you say true for a lot of folks.


This seems to me to be convoluted logic. I think you're trying to say that you won't be able to stand out as having a unique skill with Spanish. However, by the same token, you may find jobs that expect or desire you to have Spanish competency if a lot of people have that skillset.


It's relevant. The German university system is addressing the problem, but slow progress towards graduation is a part of the stressed system. Poor advising, haphazard course offerings, cancelled/full classes, etc. all systematically contribute to delaying graduation.


It's not a waste of time, and it seems as though you have moved through with a plan. At the same time, Langzeitstudierenden are a burden on a higher ed system that is under a lot of financial pressure.


My field is modern language and linguistics.

Well, good thing I am not a Langzeitstudierende then. 11 semesters is absolutely normal for an MA. The 4 semesters abroad do not count towards the calculation of "Langzeitstudierende". Not like I am in any way costing the German system anything during that time anyway, except for administration but that's what I paid my fees for. I guess the Erasmus scholarship also costs money, but it's a scholarship.

Absolutely...I'm talking about the students who have made no progress by semester 11 or 12 or who are still there after semester 20 or more. Everything costs money, but there are productive, reasonable costs (like your case) and there are pointless costs (student in 24th semester who has changed his/her Hauptfach 5 times, attends classes but doesn't turn in term papers, etc., etc.).

Well, I've done that (attended classes but not turned in term papers)... it's one of my issues. But as long as I am still done in 2.5 years I can live with it.

hi,
I guess i found this interesting well the same ting to with me i am planing to study in germany i got an admission at the technical university of clausthal of which i would going at the summer semester of 2008 to clausthal zellerfield in the niedsachsesen i would like to know how is it like studying in germany and the life over there in germany well as all internatianales i am from nigeria in Africa and i am male and you can call me simmy as well as the insurance policy there in germany, well i would be willing to hear from you guys though i know i need to take some german courses and a year at the studienkolleg by the scool in germany.is it really hard financing ones study in germany i would like know pls do reach me on cmie007@myway.com