Proof of income needed although my wife is German

To describe the situation quickly:

I am a US citizen and have lived together with my girlfriend here in Germany for the last six years. I was here legally the whole time on a study visa that I renewed each year by bringing in the standard paperwork together with a printout of my bank balance to verify that I was financially secure enough to continue studying for another year.

My girlfriend and I got married this month, and I immediately made an appointment with the Ausländerbehörde to change my visa to a permanent residence permit that will allow me to work here as well. We had already spoken with an official at the immigration office here last year, and he told us that as soon as we were married, I would be free to work here with no restrictions or even open a business if I felt like it. In short, I would have same rights (regarding employment) as a German citizen.

Now, when I called last week to make an appointment to get this new residence permit, the official told me I would need x, y, and z (normal stuff like passport an so on) and then "Einkommensnachweis". I'm just finishing my studies, so I have no employment, which I immediately told her. I then said that my wife was employed, so the woman on the phone said to bring her last three paystubs when we came. My wife doesn't make enough to support two people, so I don't know what it is exactly this woman is looking for.

I am kind of at a loss here, since from the other threads that I just quickly read through that give a similar situation, most people have commented that a US citizen married to a German citizen has the same rights regarding work and residency with no proof of income necessary. So what's going on here? Does this woman just not know what she's doing, or is this part of a new set of laws that I'm not aware of?

Can anyone give me an answer with a link to an actual valid German law that I can print out and bring to my appointment next week, so that I don't get screwed over?

Niederlassungserlaubnis

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthg_2004/__9.html

Thank you.

So if I'm understanding this...

(3) 1Bei Ehegatten, die in ehelicher Lebensgemeinschaft leben, genügt es, wenn die Voraussetzungen nach Absatz 2 Satz 1 Nr. 3, 5 und 6 durch einen Ehegatten erfüllt werden. 2Von der Voraussetzung nach Absatz 2 Satz 1 Nr. 3 wird abgesehen, wenn sich der Ausländer in einer Ausbildung befindet, die zu einem anerkannten schulischen oder beruflichen Bildungsabschluss führt. 3Satz 1 gilt in den Fällen des § 26 Abs. 4 entsprechend.

correctly, then I don't have to fulfill any particular conditions, but my wife does need to fulfill conditions 3, 5, and 6 from the list above. Whereby, she doesn't need to fulfill number 3, if I am currently studying at a German university (which is actually the case, so it is relevant). Is that about right?

I was also just looking at a later section of the Aufenthaltsgesetz where it says in §27:

(2) Dem Ausländer ist in der Regel eine Niederlassungserlaubnis zu erteilen, wenn er
drei Jahre im Besitz einer Aufenthaltserlaubnis ist, die familiäre Lebensgemeinschaft
mit dem Deutschen im Bundesgebiet fortbesteht, kein Ausweisungsgrund vorliegt und
er sich auf einfache Art in deutscher Sprache mündlich verständigen kann. Im Übrigen
wird die Aufenthaltserlaubnis verlängert, solange die familiäre Lebensgemeinschaft
fortbesteht.

So it looks like standard operating procedure is to first give me the Aufenthalterlaubnis, then I have to prove after three years that things are still good between me and the wife, then I get the Niederlassungserlaubnis. But NOWHERE except in condition (2) above is there any mention of proof of financial stability, but by the fact that my wife is German, that shouldn't be an issue.

Once again, thank you. I'm going study this well, then print it out and bring it with me, so that I don't get messed with by the Ausländerbehörde again.

" ... My wife doesn't make enough to support two people ... "

Yes, that's right, but as I read it, that shouldn't be an issue since it looks like § 9 (3) trumps §9 (2), so that my wife only has to fulfill the conditions 3, 5, and 6.

Basically, I'm also sick of the Ausländerbehörde getting into my business every year, looking at my grades, asking me how much longer it's going to take to complete my degree, making copies of all my bank statements and asking where exactly my money comes from. The way they explained it to us the last time we were there was that as soon as we were married I was eligible for an unrestricted work/residency permit, so now I'm a bit confused as to why they suddenly need financial stuff once again.

No you misunderstood, I think. It means you still have to fulfill all the conditions, but condition 3,5 and 6 could be fulfilled alternatively by your wife.

The thing about studying and not having to fulfill number 3, you´ve got right.

So there is still number 2 to fulfill ...

But maybe I am wrong - this paragraph is phrased really bewildering.

Did you not have to supply details of your income before you got married? I (as a Brit.) had to provide my last wage slip before the Standesamt (and LG Hessen) would approve the marriage application.

Ok I found the crappy interim tutorial for officials on how to use this crappy law: http://www.fluechtlingsinfo-berlin.de/fr/g...nthG_221204.pdf

But after trying to skim through this, I felt a lot dumber and confused.

If they give you any trouble, you might really need a lawyer...

you´re absolutely right imo ... § 9 (2) 2. sein Lebensunterhalt gesichert ist is quite clearly not listed in the alternatives/exceptions list and thus valid/applicable ...

Oh no. Now I see it. I think you're right. Oh crap. Looks like it's the Aufenthaltserlaubnis for me, then.
Ah well. Not having to see those anal retentive /&%$§!'s at the Ausländerbehörde for the next three years will at least give me time to recover my sanity somewhat. Thanks for pointing it out to me before I made a total ass of myself.


Well, yes and no. When we were talking to the Standesamt about what we would need to get married, I explained the situation to them and just told them flat out: "I am a poor student. I have no money." So the Standesbeamtin (Hessen) told me I would need to put in writing that I had no/minimal income. It wasn't necessarily to do with a requirement, but rather how much they were going to charge us for a certain service, I believe. If I had been earning more they would have charges us 50 Euro instead of 10 Euro or something like that. It wasn't anything major.

The funny part was when I was there and started asking her, "well, what exactly does it need to say on the paper? To whom should I address it? Does it need to be notarized?" The Standesbeamtin just pulled out a blank piece of paper, pushed it across her desk to me and said, "here, now write..." and dictated a few lines to me to the effect of "I am a student. I earn less than... per month." Then I dated it, signed it, and handed this hand-written "document" over to her. She was happy with that, put it with the other papers and everything went through the Landesgericht without a hitch.


Nah, my wife needs to be at the appointment, too, and she is a bad-ass east German woman, who doesn't take crap from beaurocrats ;-)
I've also dealt with them about six or seven times in the last five years, so I know not to let them mess with me. I've discovered, if you go in speaking fluent German, and tell them exactly what it is you need them to do, they are more likely to help you. If you give them leeway to make decisions on their own or ask for advice or help from them, you're pretty much asking for a hard time. Also, bringing a German along with you seems to -- in my experience at least -- change their attitude quite a bit.

Thanks for the link.

Ben, are you lucky enough to have an advanced degree in engineering, the natural sciences, maths, or comp sci?

Yes. Well, I'll have the German "Diplom" (about equivalent to a Master's) in mathematics in about two months, if that counts as "advanced".

Does that help me out in some way relevant to my work/residency permit? I know of the new regulation allowing for foreign graduates of a German university to stay for up to a year in Germany after completing their studies to have time to find employment, but I was always pretty certain that being married to a German citizen would be the easiest and fastest way as far as living and working here with little to no restriction.

Are you aware of something else in that massive tome (Aufenthaltsgesetz) that could help me out? I'm thankful for all advice, since the Ausländerbehörde has always been a little less than forthcoming with information as far as how I can continue to live and work here without problems.

Yeah, I would consider a Diplom advanced, congrats. I asked not only because of the one-year window you have to find a job, but because you may be able to get hired for a well-paying position in, say, financial modelling, which would render all this debate about earning enough, or not, moot.
Pound the pavement, get a job, I assumed from your posts that you don't have one lined up already. That'll hush them up, and show your earning power. You won't get a Niederlassungserlaubnis as someone "highly-qualified" right away, but who cares if you are employed and have an Aufenthaltserlaubnis? Also, look at the UK and Switzerland, although I am sure you want to stay in DE. A Diplom in Maths is prima facie evidence that you will be able to support yourself.

I'll PM you with some more.

Thanks. I hadn't seen it that way before.

No, I don't have anything lined up unfortunately. I don't know if you've been through the German university system, but studying for finals and then writing my thesis for the past half year together with a load of other private stuff (getting married, etc.) has pretty much taken all my time.

I was just hoping that finally being married to a German wife would do exactly as you say and finally shut them up, and get them off my back permanently, but it looks like that was shooting a bit too high and I'll have to get the Aufenthaltserlaubnis first and then switch over to the Niederlassungserlaubnis at some point in the next 3 to 5 years.

Let me ask this then: in your experience, do potential employers here in Germany care if it's an Aufenthaltserlaubnis or a Niederlassungserlaubnis? It sounds like it doesn't matter to them as long as you're legal and they aren't required to pay any special tax or do any extra paperwork to employ you. Actually, now that I think about it, it should be a non-issue, since I won't be mentioning the nature of my Aufenthaltstitel on any application form or in any interview. I must have been here too long already, seeing problems and difficulties everywhere, before I've even gotten started looking for a job!

It shouldn't matter to them. I'd put it on your CV that you have one as it shows them that you've already taken care of it and they won't have to help you get one.

Your wife's nationality is worth mentioning at the interview (in "tell me something about yourself...") as it signals to them your long-term commitment to stay in Germany.

Better even put it into your CV among your personal details. Something like "Aufenthaltsstatus: Aufenthaltserlaubnis, deutsch verheiratet"

Alexander,

Thanks for all your feedback and the tip that I do need to include the fact that I have an Aufenthaltserlaubnis on my CV.

After spending hours poring over the Aufenthaltsgesetz trying to figure out just which parts applied to me, I went to the Ausländerbehörde today with my wife. Everything seemed to be in order. My caseworker made copies of my wife's pay stubs, but didn't comment on the amount one way or the other. Apparently, it was just important that she has a steady job.

The Aufenthaltserlaubnis is only for a year, which I assume is due to the fact that I'm not employed at the moment. She said come back in a year, then they'd give me one for a further two years. Once we've been married for three years, I can start looking at the Niederlassungserlaubnis. I guess I can live with that. She presented it more like it was a matter of course that I get the Niederlassungserlaubnis in a couple years and not like it was some unattainable holy grail that was reserved for those who came here looking to invest a million Euros in the local economy.

Also asked about the Integrationskurs and she said it wasn't necessary in my case. According to her, those who have studied at a German university don't need to do it, since their language skills have already been verified. Of course, I have no idea where that's actually written in any legal document. That's just the way they handle it here.

One thing they have done here in our Ausländerbehörde that makes things much more pleasant is to divide up the cases by last name among caseworkers. That means from now on I always deal with the same woman whereas before I was being randomly sent to a different beaurocrat each time I was there and had to do a lot of explaining over and over again.

§ 44a Verpflichtung zur Teilnahme an einem Integrationskurs

(2) Von der Teilnahmeverpflichtung ausgenommen sind Ausländer,

1. die sich im Bundesgebiet in einer beruflichen oder sonstigen Ausbildung befinden ...

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/aufenthaltsg.html#43

Only just read this - you've worked it out - unfortunately more visits, but do the 3 year stint and you will be eligible. I was in a similar situation - got married to a German guy after working here 4 years and thought that would be it with the work/residence permits etc, but got told to come back at the 5 year mark or wait the 3 years of marriage. It was all very friendly and done in about 10 minutes. In the meantime I was granted an unlimited work permit, and another 3 years residency permit (I was working full time). So if it all goes to plan that means one more visit , 85 yoyos less and its all over. As others have said, mention that you have an unlimited work permit (if you got one) on your CV - it makes a big difference.

Ok, if you want to interpret the following article literally, you have already fufilled the necessary requirements for the issuance of a Niederlassungserlaubnis:

(2) Dem Ausländer ist in der Regel eine Niederlassungserlaubnis zu erteilen, wenn er
drei Jahre im Besitz einer Aufenthaltserlaubnis ist, die familiäre Lebensgemeinschaft
mit dem Deutschen im Bundesgebiet fortbesteht, kein Ausweisungsgrund vorliegt und
er sich auf einfache Art in deutscher Sprache mündlich verständigen kann. Im Übrigen
wird die Aufenthaltserlaubnis verlängert, solange die familiäre Lebensgemeinschaft
fortbesteht.

Nowhere does this say that you have to have been in possession of a residence permit issued gemäß §28 AufentG (for spouses of German citizens) for 3 years - it just says A residence permit for three years. And, since you studied so long, you have fufilled this requirement. It may have been in the intention of the law, but it is definitely not the letter of it ... and you know how anal Germans are when it comes to laws and regulations. I know that for a first issuance EVER of a residence permit gemäß §28 that they will only issue you a year if you do not have regular income, but this does not apply in your case. If you wanted to press the issue, you could possibly get your Niederlassungserlaubnis sooner than expected.

Why do you need to put that on the CV?? I don't think the HR or potential employer will sieve through thousands of application to see if you have Aufenthaltserlaubnis or a Niederlassungserlaubnis or wat-not. As long as you are the right candidate for the job, the companies will process it for you: I was not married (to German) and I was a student when I got this job. And when my one-year work visa came up, the woman just gave me a 3-year one. My HR said it's easier in Hamburg while in Wiesbaden, it was "normal" to get a half-year work visa... Good luck!

When I married my German husband here, I'd already been living and had my own business here for a few years. I was initially given a new Aufenthaltsgenehmigung for one year with reason for stay being "Familiennachzug". I had to apply for an extension after one year, which allowed me another 2 year stay. Only after all of that could I apply for my permanent visa, the Niederlassungserlaubnis. Even though I was married and had a German baby. I'm assuming they do it that way to make sure it's a "legitimate" marriage and that you're not just making a deal with someone to get yourself a visa.

I don't think any company will care as long as you are permitted to work and don't have any quirky restrictions on your visa. I think it depends on the company. I know of smaller companies that shy away from having to hire someone who doesn't yet have the proper paperwork lined up because, frankly, it's a pain in the ass for the company to get everything sorted. With a bigger company, they probably have the experience and the personnel to deal with the paperwork more easily.

What Jenny said. What they want to see is your Arbeitserlaubnis.

Congrats on getting all this worked out. And on your Diplom!

When I went in to get my unlimited residency permit (the predecessor of the Niederlassungserlaubnis), I had to prove I could support both of us b/c my then-H had left his job to freelance. That seemed a little weird to me. He was doing fine, and I could have been fired the next day, but the uncertainty of him freelancing bothered the clerk for some reason. I also didn't understand why Germans make some really aggressive comments about the U.S. having a horrible social system, but I'm allowed to vouch for one of their sons?

Molly, the type of person who would complain about the "social system" in the US is also the type who will always find something about which to complain. They also tend, in my experience, to be the people with the least knowledge of the country and tend to have had the least personal contact with the country and its citizens.

Perhaps, but students are often issued an "Aufenthaltsbewilligung" which is legally a different thing than an "Aufenthaltserlaubnis".

Ben,

There is only one relevant topic here. Will you be gainfully employed (in which case they can tax your ass to death)? Or are you going to be sucking on the social welfare teat? If you've got a job, they'll leave your ass alone (other than taxing you). As long as you're paying taxes they'll give you as many "Stempels" as you want. If you're unemployed, the bureaucrats will hassle you to no end. It's really quite simple.

Well, they seem to enjoy seeking me out and lecturing me greatly on things they know not.

Maybe it's a way of feeling better about staying where they are. In which case I suppose I should serve as a willing vehicle. Oh, but that would be social of me, and as an American I'm asocial.

Do I want a drink before bed?

I am going to have to agree with you there. While we were at the Ausländerbehörde last month, I probed around with some -- what I considered to be valid -- questions regarding my status here. For example, what would happen to me if, God forbid, my wife were to die in two years before I have a Niederlassungserlaubnis? Would they consider my reason for being here no longer valid? Would I have to quit my job here, fly back to the US where I have basically nothing - no job, no friends, zip - and start all over again?

The answer began with, "Well, that depends. If you're working here, we'd have to take a look at the situation..." I found it odd, since generally one assumes they do NOT want more foreigners here crowding the labor market, but as you say the alternative is sucking at the teat of Vater Staat, which is even worse for them.


I tried all kinds of ways to understand what exactly this group of grumbly, aggressive people (the "lecturers") have stuck up their collective ass, but in the end, it doesn't matter. I classify them in the same way as old, prejudiced people in the US who still ask me questions about Nazis and WWII upon learning that I live in Germany. They are generally poorly informed at best and almost always small-minded. They are to be pitied or mocked depending on my mood, but not taken seriously.

BG, by all means check on this with other sources, but I have heard that you may be able to stay for a year after divorce or separation. You may also want to find out what the threshhold is for having enough in terms of financial assets- I don't think that a person with 200,000 euros in the bank and an employed spouse is going to be booted out for not having a job.
How is the job market for a Diplom-Mathematiker? I would think that you would have some options for doing financial modelling, risk management, or actuarial work.

I have also heard that non-EU graduates of German universities may soon be allowed to stay three years after graduation, instead of the current one (can't remember if that is merely a proposal or if it is going through the process of being legislated).

Anyone with a Diplom in Math is obviously highly intelligent- you would think that Germany would want someone like you to stay.

Think again. That's the first thing they want to see on a job application after name and date of birth.

I will need to check it at some point. I don't mean for it to sound like I am planning on my wife's death or anything. It was just something that popped into my head as we were sitting there talking to the beaurocrat, since, like I said I've basically got nothing going for me in the US, and have invested years here in getting a good start in life in Germany.

The job market for the Dipl.-Mathematiker is good. The latest statistic I saw was that the "average" diplom-mathematiker sends out only 12 job applications before finding employment -- compare that with 80+ for business students. The banks and insurance companies will definitely take you for the kind of stuff you mentioned, and you can make a nice salary doing it, but it is not really my cup of tea. Many of the other math students I have known here went to universities after graduation to firstly get their doctorate and then maybe eventually take a shot at a professorship. That's a much riskier proposition here in Germany, however.

Another sector to get into is medical / phamaceutical research. If you can get a good statistics + health background together, the opportunities are just as good as anything that the banks offer.

Like one of my professors said, though: "Sure, you can make 45,000 Euro starting salary at the bank, but do you think you'll be leaving work at 5 o'clock?"


I sent out a job app a couple weeks ago and had it on there just like you wrote (no shit, it was really "name", "dob", "I am not illegal"). My wife was pretty insistent that it needed to go on there as well. It seems to have worked, though, since I got an invitiation to an interview.

Good to hear that there are options in the health care/pharmaceutical sector. I would think there would be more coming in the future what with the 'genetics revolution' and computational chemistry/biology. As you said, not too many for pure mathematicians- maybe in the gambling industry. I wouldn't knock working in finance as a quant or a trader, though- some people do it for some time (a lot less than 30-40 years) and make enough money to be able to move on to something else. But you already know what you want- good for you, and good luck with the interview rounds.

EDIT: contact eurovol, he might be able to help you out.

EDIT: You already know that many, if not most professors will encourage you to go on to doctoral study- every one I ever had did.

Spoken like a true mathematician there...

Good luck, by the way...

So you called and spoke with person A and got an answer, then called later and spoke with person B and got a different answer? No surprise, they're Beamte... * Cough * German efficiency * cough *

Get a relocation company to do this for you. They're experts, if not get one that is. It will solve a lot of the hassle...

can't you supply something else (eg bank statement) that shows you have enough financially to support yourselves? - seeing as I guess you must have planned how to support yourselves if your wife's income is not enough

I read the above but I'm not quite clear how it applies to my situation.

My boyfriend and I have been in DE for a little over four years. I'm a German/US dual citizen, he's a US citizen. He was here on a 3 month tourist visa, then got a 1-year Aufenthaltserlaubnis, then a 2-year one, then (last fall) a 3-year one. He has never worked in Germany (he flies to the US and does consulting work). I was working in Germany, now I'm a student. I've never had to sponsor him (although I'm always present at his appointments), because he has enough money in his bank account. This most recent Aufenthaltserlaubnis, issued after the legal change in 2005 that combined residency and work permits, says that he can get a full-time job "after asking permission" or some such, but he can't work for himself. Verbally, the bureaucrat told him something like he could get permission to work for himself if he brought in a business plan and got it approved, or had some letters from prospective clients (I can't remember if it was an and or an or). This Aufenthaltserlaubnis expires in December 2009. His passport actually expires earlier, in July 2009.

We're planning on getting married next year. Three questions:

1) Will we be able to go in and get them to give him a new Xerlaubnis as soon as we're married, or do we need to wait until his passport expires, or until his Aufenthaltserlaubnis expires? (How do you deal with "transferring" a visa to a new passport, anyway?)

2) Will he be able to he get a Niederlassungserlaubnis right away, since he's had an Aufenhaltserlaubnis for 3 years, or do those 3 years need to be after marriage (at which point the 5 year deadline will come first)?

3) If he doesn't get a Niederlassungserlaubnis right away, can he at least get a full work permit, so he doesn't have to have them approve his business plan / clients etc?

And the bonus question, which might be more complicated so feel free to ignore:

Would it make sense, immigration-wise, for us to start a small business together to do consulting? I can clearly start a business without having the immigration office "approve" it. Could I get him a work permit to work for us? Or does that make no sense at all?

Thanks!

I read some other forums on this but I'm now more confused... since he's never worked here, does he not qualify for a Niederlassungserlaubnis?

heapt, you really need to consult with someone at the KVR. As for him starting a business of his own after you are married, he would still be a non-EU citizen, and that seems to be the criteria for deciding whether or not a business plan must be approved, rather than whether or not he is married to you. Given what you have posted, it does not sound likely that he would qualify for a Niederlassungserlaubnis unless he is considered a highly skilled migrant, but I just don't know. Again, consult with the people who will be making the decisions. They can give you the informative and accurate answers that you need for his particular situation.

When you do get some answers, please be sure to post them on this thread so that others can become informed as well.

Good luck...