Why everyone in Germany is so against the U.S.

Yeeeeeeeeah...Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Not sure if this is what Adi meant but culturally it is similar , its just that they'd eat our children in their current guise. It'd take a very very long time (over 100 years I'd guess) for Russian society to move anything like into line with what Western Europeans would view as acceptable.

Hey! Maybe you do have a point after all. What wouldn't we give to have gulags, detention without trial, the death penalty, torture, a disturbingly corrupt government, war criminals and the best goddam junk food on the planet? What was I thinking?

I think we already do have most of these things.

Sixty years are worth a couple of lines in some history books - you're not as far away from that glasshouse as you think you are.

Bear in mind that I am very much in favor of strong Euro-American relations, however posts that are similar in content to the rabble-rousing nonsense you get at your average protest organized in front of some US embassy need to be put into perspective.

Sin, careful, we don't want you to have a heart attack. Just keep in mind there are two sides to the story, and you are in the peanut gallery, not the one with responsibility. As for war crimes, perhaps you should read this before you get all out of kilter:

http://www.icc-cpi.int/library/organs/otp/...bruary_2006.pdf

The point is that it is not as simple as you are making it. There are shades of opinion. Bush and Co. have a lot of questions to answer, indeed, but I think you need to calm down.

EDIT: if you are accusing the US of having gulags, you better say exactly where they are. There are no gulags run by the US. These are gulags:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

It is no secret you have some strong anti-US feelings, but accusing the US of slave labor is beyond the pale. I expect the neonazis and other extremists who hate the US to be quoting you at some point.

EDIT: one other thing- your government also has troops in Iraq, superstar. What does that make it?

Imagine all the people living in a wolrd of $hit...you can say I am a dreamer, but I am not the only one, I hope one day you feel my jihad, and the world would be $ucked. Who sang that song?

I'm fine, thank you very much.


So why can't you get to grips with how European's think?


I think you'll find the the neonazis have warmed to the USA, and don't pull the WikiBollocks shit with me:


...or a forced labor camp, but NOT necessarily a forced labor camp. One word: Guantanamo. Tell me out of interest, how many poor bastards have now been let out with no charge?


Oo! Well spotted. I wondered if you'd notice that. Yes, I am fully aware of our country's mistake, thank you. The fact that we are in Iraq is deeply unpopular in the UK. I hope we get out very soon.

JW, the point of view I was trying to communicate was that of Europeans I know, not my own. I, too, am uncomfortable with the idea that citizens in a democracy should vote for candidates that other countries approve.

It's just that in the case of Bush, everyone I knew thought that he was poison for Americans themselves, as well as a menace to the international community, so they couldn't believe he would be re-elected. They thought he would obviously be trounced, no matter the other candidate.

The whole election was shocking to me, to be honest. I moved to Germany after the 2000 US elections, but before it was settled for Bush. When 2004 came around, I couldn't believe there was so much attention paid to the US presidential elections in Europe. I'm sure a lot of Americans don't know even now that Tony Blair has been replaced.

America is a threat now ... and as an only partially developed democracy its political future is even less predictable than that of Russia

Sin, you are brain-dead if you think the neonazis like the US.

Here is a picture of a gulag:

Please read what i wrote again, you seem to have a little trouble with comprehension at present. I do not state anything to do with spending but rather aiming at the removal of means for profit from these areas.

<sarcasm>
Yes of course it doesn't encourage others to increase their nuclear arsenals...
</end sarcasm>

US nukes serve as a threat to survival along with every other nuke on the planet...
That is some pretty small minded reasoning you're displaying.

We have come to expect nothing less than such rubbish from you. You have also said, among other proven lies, the Russians/Soviets have never broken a treaty- a pathetic lie.
In case you didn't learn at school, the only reason why Germany is a democracy today is the US role in drafting the Gründgesetz, prosecuting Nazi war criminals, and bringing Germany into NATO and the world community.

EDIT: You are in no position to lecture the US on democracy. How about prosecuting former Stasi agents and DDR officials?

EDIT: Yep Pleb, I am sure you are going to be able to lobby Kim Jong Il and Hu Jintao, among others, to give up their nukes.

British troops on verge of long-awaited pullout from Basra

Your boys better get out of Afghanistan too ... as long as they can

'US friendly fire' kills British soldiers in Afghanistan

And why, pray tell, do they require their Nukes...?

Has the US's overabundance anything to do with it?

Are nations feeling insecure because the playground bully, with a reputation for dropping the things, is continually building up it's reserves and blatantly threating nations?

Guys, guys... everyone is hating everyone...

http://www.i-hate-france.com/
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16059
http://www.trinicenter.com/kwame/2003/Mar/
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20030301fare...mericanism.html

Lighten up. When anyone is in a foreign country they are, in effect, ambassadors for their home country. This has 2 facets:

1. Everyone thinks all other people sharing your nationality behave like you. People see you as British, American, French, German or whatever...and how you behave is often interpreted as being typical of your fellow Americans, Brits, etc. Americans acting like jerks in Germany tend to make their German neighbours think all Americans are jerks. Germans acting like jerks in America tend to make your American neighbours think all Germans are jerks. 1 jerk's actions in a foreign country tars all of their fellow countrymen with the same brush.

2. Everyone thinks that you hold the same views as your 'home' government. It doesn't matter if you're a died-in-the-wool democrat, you still have a direct line to Republican policy and a hot-line phone connection to the oval office. Or, in the case of a German, you're either a neo-nazi or a communist and a danger to American democracy because America is the only democracy in the world and you're not American goddammit! During any major international political events/crises you suddenly become personally responsible for your home government's actions.

Americans... you're not being picked on... at least not more than anyone else is being picked on. There's ample evidence that everyone hates Germans, Brits, the French, Americans, etc... Any country that takes a position and plays any significant role in international politics is hated by someone...usually everyone (else).

Pleb, I am not surprised that you think they should have nukes. Complain to them about their nukes, not to me.
You can pretty much say what you like, you don't have any constructive suggestions, anyway, so just keep being a professional protestor. I could not care less what you have to say.

EDIT: as for the propagandist miwild, he could be anybody.

As far as I can remember it has always been so. My mother was a great fan of JFK (and was working for Stars And Stripes magazine when he was in office). The first I was old enough to follow was the Carter-Reagan election. Reagan was unpopular in the UK (on the ground and NOT with that evil bitch) as far as recall. GHW Bush wasn't greatly popular either, but Clinton appeared well received. There was plenty of available news about Dubya and what he was like long before he ever thought of running for President. I detested the man when he was still Governor of Texas.

Trying to remain objective and ignoring typical crass rubbish from the likes of JW, I found the Forbes article, read it with interest and then posted it up to allow others to read it. After all, it is one thing to declare that anti-Americanism exists, and yet quite another to try to discover the reasons why. Forbes details several reasons. However, I do believe Forbes completely missed the amount of ill-feeling towards comments like, "They're just jealous because they want to be like us". No! Nooooooooo! Uh-uh! No way José. No! No, no no! NO!. THAT is how far these people are from understanding their unpopularity. I admit to selective anti-Americanism. Most Americans I know are thoroughly nice people. It's a shame the minority always fuck it up for them abroad.

Sin, have you told the 'nice' Americans you know that you think the US has gulags? Care to share their reactions with us when you do?

Mate, I recommend you write to The American Heritage Dictionary and point out their mistake. While you're at it you could write to Aryan Nation, the ANP, NSV, National Alliance and NSM and ask if they are pro or anti-American.


Yes, it has cropped up in conversation from time to time. Many claim to be deeply concerned by Guantanamo, detention without trial, the issue of torture and the CIA rendition flights. You should get outside your little bubble and interact more. It's very healthy.

I still haven’t really encountered anything I’d personally consider to be anti Americanism, not on TT, and not out in the real world. But speaking of any sort of negative sentiments towards the US, I think I can see where some of it might be coming from. I think it’s like when you have some child prodigy, all full of potential, and it ends up wasting its life away, a spoiled rotten brat that can’t effectively communicate with others. You feel some degree of frustration and disgust, because you have something here that could be so great, but it’s turned into a monster instead. A guy who’s claiming to be the hero and the good guy, pointing the finger and saying that there are enemies everywhere, and continuously goes on a rampage killing people. I don’t feel the need to criticize some countries that anyway seem like totalitarian dictatorships, I’d rather criticize the hero, hoping he might come round and turn out to be good after all. I guess it all depends on your take on how dangerous your so called enemies really are though.

I feel that maybe 20 years ago some Europeans might have criticized the US, but secretly they maybe felt some degree of jealousy. This might still be true in some cases, but my gut feeling is that this phenomenon is diminishing, and many people here really feel their lives and the lives of their offspring are being threatened by US foreign policy. In addition to that I think they usually believe they enjoy a better quality of life than most people in the US do, thus sneering at Americans who they think are boasting about how great their county is.

It's true that as a citizen of a democratic country one can't lean back and think everything will be great.

But: As far as I know, it's not in the US where TV stations that criticize the administration are shut down, where journalists have to fear for their lives or are murdered (like Anna Politkovskaja), where rival politicians have to leave the country or will be put into jail under dubious accusations (like Michail Khodorkovskij).

At no point did i say that they should have nukes and as demonstrated by previous posts (above) i firmly believe that no country should have these indiscriminate weapons.


nice...
please be aware that i have nothing against Americans, just the administrations...
Yes I will admit that the problem with the administration can then tend to extend to the population, or rather the portion of the population that does not inform itself of it's govt's criminal actions and hold that govt responsible...

EDIT: My govt is also involved in a large portion of these criminal actions, and that also disgusts me...
The difference being that my govt does not have the power to start, sustain and end world nuclear war.

Must be similar to the WMD's in Iraq... that are nowhere to be found...
Oh brainwashed Spaniard just believe whatever spin your goverment will serve you. I know they are only defending allies by invading nations in the name of god...or was it the war on terror (nearly as successful as the US "war on drugs")

Unfortunatly all of the NATO-members got sucked in to this mess by curiouse George and his Neocon muppets because they declared "war on terror" and now we have a "Bündnisfall" ... and I thought NATO could only declare war (in article V) on nations that attacked the territory of an Nato allie. Did Afghanistan or Iraq attack any NATO member?

Did Bosnia?
Serbia?
Kosovo?

Did anybody declare a "Bündnisfall" like GW did after 9/11? Wasn't Bosnia about trying to stop a genocide? And wasn't it a UN-mission(UNPROFOR) before the Dayton Agreement and the NATO led forces of IFOR(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IFOR) Nobody declared a war on anybody. Operation Deliberate Force (by NATO members) was a direct response to the Marcale Massacres and was prior to the Dayton Agreement.

As for Kosovo you should have a look at this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

Larry=taxidriver
Moe=miwild
Curly=?

Here's another.

Nice one - quite cheeky.

Unfortunately Conquistador actually knows too many things so he doesn't qualify.

I'd say Curly=Sin, who now will denounce me as the anti-Christ.

EDIT: taxidriver, are you saying that Iran does not have a nuclear program?

Also, I don't think there was any official declaration of war of Afghanistan or Iraq. If you think that German troops are in Afghanistan illegally, then I suggest you take the matter to the Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe, but I think that they have already ruled on that deployment's constitutionality.

Are you for real JW? Conquistador is clearly pants. You give him something and all of a sudden he's brought something else totally unrelated into the equation. eg. "Why are so many people nervous about The USA at the moment?" Answer: "Look at Russia! Look at China! Look at Belgium! Bastards!" He deludes himself into bollocks attempting to fob off people who are clearly worried where The USA is going and then has the nerve to call them 'jealous'. When he gets stuck he claims anybody with a counter-argument is spreading propaganda. Psychiatric treatment is what he needs.

Very good. Is that the best you can do or am I just jealous because I'm not Curly (whoever he/she/it is)? Why don't you read the Forbes piece and comment objectively, or are you going to do a BadBob on us?

Sin, have you figured out that not every prison is a gulag, otherwise your country would have them as well, plus saintly Germany?

Anyway, as to European views of the US, I will give you a post on my opinion on that when time permits.

Do you think Tony Blair is a war criminal? Keep in mind the UK is subject to the ICC.

EDIT: how can I be jealous of a guy named Sin?

I'd prefer Keydeck's gulag to a German prison any day.

No 'figuring out' is required. 3. A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp. - American Heritage Dictionary. My mistake, they're obviously havin' the time of Riley in Guantanamo. Parties every night. Virgins for breakfast. The lucky buggers, eh? And all that service without any charge. Who'da thought?


Yep. Next question.

Did I say anything that Iran does not have a nuclear program? Nice try to spin it around, just like the US-goverment.
You are the one who claimed:


There is a diffrence between a nuclear program and a nuclear weapons program- got that soldier
Germany for example has a nuclear program but does it have a nuclear weapons program?

I wouldn't hold your breath taxidriver. He's about to tell us what we think again.

Oh does he? That's not what he says:

Three Stooges.

You should read this too, maybe it will expand your (limited) horizon:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran

taxidriver, perhaps you would unearth quotes from me that also state I worked in IT. You took the quote about knowing about economics and finance out of context. I was not saying that I knew nothing about anything other than economics and finance.

EDIT: Here is what I actually said in context:


EDIT: I don't care why you hate Americans, or ex-military, or whatever your dysfunction is.

No personal attacks

miwild, make sure you remonstrate your countryman taxidriver as well.

Of course, you didn't mention this:

Who was the one digging around in the history of my posts so he could find dirt to fuel his agenda? Spaniard beaten in his own game...
As I told you before, don't put words in my mouth, I do not hate anybody. Resorting to insults because you have no rational argument...
Care to comment on the Iranian Nuclear Weapons Programm?
I know this link suits your view of Iran way better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_weap...ass_destruction
but wait, what does it say:The factual accuracy of this article is disputed

As you can see, I did not cite anything from that Wikipedia entry. You have been caught trying to misrepresent my words. At this point, I see no further reason to respond to you, and will let others draw their own conclusions.

Out of arguments my"friend"?
By the way, did you show my "rants" (as you like to call them) to your frind the german historian yet? Or did you do as I told you and shoved them where the sun doesn't shine?

Thanks. Conclusions drawn.

No need to say that the dictionary made a mistake- you misrepresented what a gulag is.

Here's how the American Heritage Dictionary defines "gulag"


and more, but nothing that fits Guantanamo. Don't misrepresent what it a gulag is by applying it to situations that do not fit its definition. Guantanamo is a prison, yes, but vitually every country has prisons. There is no forced or slave labor at Guantanamo, and slave labor is a defining characteristic of a gulag.

Of course everyone is concerned about torture and the other things you mention. Don't try to pretend I support those things. You don't have to give combatants a trial, Sin. What is the status of those held at Guantamo, are they combatants or civilians, and how would you sitting here in Germany know for certain what they were doing in Afghanistan or Pakistan when they were handed over by locals in those regions? You can't, and to determine which category they fall under also requires those detained to cooperate. If they refuse to cooperate, would you automatically release them, not knowing everything about what they were doing?
I think they should have been held in theater until it was determined what they had done, but that is my opinion. Many have been released.

Care to lecture the Russians on their human rights abuses in Chechnya?

As for your contention that Tony Blair is a war criminal, the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court disagrees with you:
http://www.icc-cpi.int/library/organs/otp/...bruary_2006.pdf