Providing proof for EU citizen to work in Germany

Hello, this is a repeated problem here in Germany that many Germans in German organisations ask for proof as an EU citizen that you are legally allowed to work in Germany. It doesn't seem to be enough to show your password. tax card and social insurance card. Do you know the legal document that lists all EU countries that can work in Germany legally. Spelling it out so to speak.

If you are an "old" EU Citizen your passport should be sufficient though if you do need something official and German you can get a Freizügiket bescheingung fro your local council.

Restrictions apply for "new" EU citzens for the next few years and you may have to apply for a permit.

Monkstown indeed this document only applies to new EU entrants but am an oldie EU entrant, passport seems obvious but organisations will not just except the passport and when I tell them about "the free movement of workers is a fundamental right which permits nationals of one EEA country to work in another EEA country on the same conditions as that member state's own citizens". Some organisations can't understand how a EU citizen other than German has the same rights to work here. Am I just dealing perhaps with the obvious...stupid German EU citizens...other citizens I can understand...

I suspect that the people you are dealing with just haven't smelled the coffee.
If they made any further negative comment after you pointed out the legal situation to them you might want to consider whetehr that is the kind of employer you want to work for anyway...

Do a search (or not, because the search tool will never find it) for a Freizugigkeitsbescheinigung.

(Probably better off with the topic 'No more Aufenthaltserlaubnis for EU citizens')

It's a piece of paper which informs the clueless that you are an EU citizen and thus don't need a piece of paper to prove you're allowed to live & work here.

Anyway, you should get one, it's pretty easy to get from your local Amt (usually not the one you do your Anmeldung in, but probably in the same building or around the corner!)

You are usually in invited to apply for a Freizügigskeitsbescheinigung (check the spelling and it can be found) when you register your address. I was given one automatically without even asking when I registered my new address.

Great advise folks... thank you! Going to look into this on Monday.

My problem has been that my UK Birth Certificate isn't being recognized as proof of UK Citizenship (born in Farnham Royal in 1965).

At the Einwohneramt, I'm being told that, since I hold a Canadian passport, that I'm Canadian, not British... so I explained that a passport is a travel document that shows citizenship for the country from where it was issued.

Canadian passport + British Birth Certificate = Dual nationality. Why is this so difficult to understand???

Grrrr...

Well, not everyone born in the UK is automatically a UK citizen so I can't blame them for that. If you are a British citizen as well, you may have to apply for a British passport. Just a birth certificate is no proof of citizenship because there are people who may have been born in the UK but who are not UK citizens. (Granted, the exceptions are unlikely, but they're there.)

Thanks Mariposa, interesting link.

As it states on my birth certificate, I was born in England to British parents. No special exceptions apply.

I've lived and worked all over Europe and have never held a British passport. It's funny... my Canadian citizenship should be the one in question but never is, even when living in Canada!

Maybe I should speak with a British accent when I go into the office... lol...

A British birth certificate means something only to the British authorities/embassy/consulate.
If you expect to have proof of your British citizenship to show to others, a passport is needed (since the UK doesn't issue identity cards).
You can't expect German civil servants or employers to be well-versed in UK citizenship law.
As you say, a passport is a travel document. Well, that's exactly what you are trying to do--travel away from the UK.

Get a passport!
http://www.britischebotschaft.de/en/consul...ports/index.htm

I disagree.

A birth certificate is a form of identity and identification... and of nationality.

It's not up to me to provide the paperwork that they understand. It's up to them to understand immigration law.

C.

It depends on when you were born. For people born in the UK before 1 January 1983, a UK birth certificate is enough evidence of nationality to the UK authorities. Those born in the UK on or after 1 Jan 1983 need additional documentation. Germany needs (foreigners to provide) a passport as evidence of your citizenship. It's up to the host country to set their own laws, not recognise those of any other Tom, Dick or Harry country.

no it is not. A birth certificate is, well errrr, a certificate of your, errr birth, A person born of foreign parents in Germany also gets a birth certificate. But this doesn't necessarily make them German.

A birth certificate is not an internationally-recognized, inter-governmental identity/citizenship document. Yes, because you were born before 1983 and were born in the UK, you have a clear citizenship case to the British authorities. However, you need a passport or national identity card--since the UK doesn't issue the latter, you need a passport.

From the Aufenthaltsgesetz:
§ 3 Passpflicht
(1) 1Ausländer dürfen nur in das Bundesgebiet einreisen oder sich darin aufhalten, wenn sie einen anerkannten und gültigen Pass oder Passersatz besitzen, sofern sie von der Passpflicht nicht durch Rechtsverordnung befreit sind. 2Für den Aufenthalt im Bundesgebiet erfüllen sie die Passpflicht auch durch den Besitz eines Ausweisersatzes (§ 48 Abs. 2).
(2) Das Bundesministerium des Innern oder die von ihm bestimmte Stelle kann in begründeten Einzelfällen vor der Einreise des Ausländers für den Grenzübertritt und einen anschließenden Aufenthalt von bis zu sechs Monaten Ausnahmen von der Passpflicht zulassen.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthg...R195010004.html

Cocolino - You have made a mistake.
You should have obtained a UK passport in the old days when it was easy.
Now you are apparently entitled to one, but the UK authorities have made it
a lot more difficult - first time applicants need to be interviewed in person.
(UK consulate in Düsseldorf ?).
The more passports you have, the easier life is (I have two nieces
with US/UK/Canadian passports).

Hi J,

Thanks for your input.

No, this won't be my first UK passport. If I have to go through the bother of getting one, it will be my third.

That's what is annoying. It's clear that I'm a UK citizen, but they just want to see the passport for "the record".

I still disagree with what has been said earlier. My birth certificate clearly states the nationalities of my parents (British Subjects) and the year of my birth in the UK. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together... well, maybe in Germany it does.

I'm going to fight this until I'm blue in the face... Looking forward to letting you all know how it turns out.

C.

Dear Cocolino,
You are looking at the problem the wrong way.
The BRD (read Prussia) expects/enforces all of its own citizens to be registered
cradle-to-grave. Fair enough.
A German "Ausweis" is given to you (free) when you are 18, thereafter
you need to pay for one every 10 years.
(The trace will go back to when you were born).
A German Passport is regarded as a substitute (my partner threw her Ausweis
away inadvertently and is very relaxed about this - she has a passport).
There is no fuss for Germans getting a German passport because the state knows
where you are and who you are. - Anmeldungspflicht
I do not think it is unreasonable for the BRD to expect non-BRD citizens
to comply with their rules.
A UK "Birth certificate" is a bit of a joke - it proves nothing!
Firstly no one gets their hand on their "Birth certificate" - only on a certified copy.
The original is stored somewhere that the Official Secrets Act prevents me from revealing.
Secondly, anyone can get a certified copy of anyone else's Birth cert.!
Bizarre but true - I know because I used to work for the Gov. dept.
involved in this - the GRO subsumed into the ONS.
Basically the Germans have a logical system and the UK system
is full of holes for fraudsters to exploit (read "The day of the Jackals")

well i think the real reason behind this was that you showed up with a canadian passport.
germans dont really do the dual citizenship (except if its another EU country, i've heard but dont nail me down on that one) therefore they probably dont know it and dont know how british/canadian law works.
for them you might have been british at birth but decided one day along the way to become canadian instead. obvious isnt it?

Hey Cyn.

You have a good point however, I'm unaware of anyone having renounced their birth nationality... or if it's even possible?

Don't forget... when I was born, Canada was still part of the commonwealth (not that this has anything to do with the issue at hand).

Does anyone think it would help if I obtained a German translation of the UK citizenship laws?

Please note: I'm only hesitating to get a UK passport again because of the exorbitant cost involved. There has got to be a less expensive way of proving my nationality.

C.

...and for the record...

I really don't give a *#@&% what the Germans "do" or "don't do" when it comes to recognizing dual citizenship.

They agreed to recognize dual citizenships when they joined the EU (INCLUDING non-EU states).

No, I won't nail you down for that one.

'Nuf said?

Let's be clear about this. You do not have dual citizenship. You have a claim for dual citizenship in so much as you have birth evidence which may lead to the provision of a British Passport should you decide to apply. Once you have that passport (and only then) you have evidential proof of dual nationality. Until then you can only prove Canadian citizenship or nationality to any other authority.

FINALLY someone has come up with a legitimate argument.

Thanks Jeremyhay.

THAT makes some sense, even though I do hold my ORIGINAL UK birth certificate. (Yeah... it's A3 Legal format... can't find a photocopier large enough to copy it).

I'll get in touch with the consulate and see what can be done.

Now... my son is Swiss/Canadian and eligible (through me) for UK citizenship.

Who wants to get in on THIS one???

lol..

Thanks everyone for your helpful feedback.

C.

Lol... Yorkshirelad...

Okay... so let's start on my 12 year old son.

If what you are saying is correct, then his Swiss birth certificate, Swiss mother and three Swiss siblings all living in Switzerland are no evidence that he's Swiss?

Yes, he carries a Canadian passport that I got for him 3 years ago. So I guess the little guy isn't Swiss anymore, can't even live there. Damn...

Lol... Doesn't THAT make custody issues easier! Want to be my lawyer?

C.

Still is one to this day ... afaik

1 yes it is
2 dont think they will give a damn what they state![/i
...

QUOTE (Cocolino @ Jun 10 2008, 10:36 pm)

...and for the record...

I really don't give a *#@&% what the Germans "do" or "don't do" when it comes to recognizing dual citizenship.

They agreed to recognize dual citizenships when they joined the EU (INCLUDING non-EU states).
No, I won't nail you down for that one. ----- 'Nuf said?

[i]They do, you just have to show them your passport!!!
thanks for not nailing me down

Cocolino - I sympathise with you. UK passports are absurdly expensive.
But it's because the UK is useless at identifying its citizens.
It's far cheaper to be a German! The Ausweis costs little and is honoured
in many countries outside the EU.
The poor Brits need a GBP 80 passport even to cross the channel to France!

You are confusing residency with nationality. Outside of Switzerland they have no proof of Swiss nationality, and can only prove evidence of Canadian nationality.

It is the right of a state to determine who its nationals are. Provision of a passport identifies that determination.

What on earth is your aversion to getting passports to document your citizenship(s) and those of your son? The passport--for centuries--has been *the* document that one uses to document identity and citizenship in an international context. Yes, they can be expensive (especially the UK ones), but they usually are valid for about ten years.

Also, as for your son, it gets harder and harder to establish claims to citizenship as time passes/parents pass on.

He has dual citizenship, just no means to prove it. Not having a passport or form of identification of a country does not mean you do not have citizenship of that country.

However, Cocolino, you need to look at it this way. You want something from the German authorities. And there is only one way to get it. So get a British passport. You can say 'I don't care if Germany doesn't believe this or that or requires this or that". Well, if you want to get a work permit, you better start caring, because who really doesn't care if you work in Germany or not are the German authorities. Maybe that sounds a bit harsh, but that's the way it is.

So does your birth certificate have your picture on it.

Until he has proof he does not have dual citizenship. He only has a claim, albeit very strong, possibly unassailable.

It sounds like mariposa has hit the nail on the head here. Pragmatism is called for. If the passport is what the system requires one individual is probably not going to be able to change it - except with a stroke of very good fortune.

I see so many Germans here spending decades railing against systems and rules. Really, decades . They are convinced things will eventually go their way - but they never do. Meantime, their lives are passing and they are missing endless opportunities.

I was thinking the same meself...

But it's not a German thing. No-one accepts a Birth Certificate as proof of identity. It's only proof of (someone's) birth which can be used (with additional material) to contribute to proof of identity and therefore entitlement to nationality in obtaining, for example, a passport.

So Cocolino, have you ever tried to enter the UK with just your birth certificate, I somehow don't think the HM Immigration would let you in...anyway in response to the original post, you can find all EU rules/regs & whatever else here http://europa.eu/

And to the chap/ess that refuses to get a Brit passport (please note it says EU citizens):

QUOTE

[/b]

Dude, they wanted to see my passport for something as simple as handing my licence (which has my photo on it) back to me.


It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that if there are rules (esp in Germany:)) they are meant to be followed. I am with the german authorities on this one. Your birth certificate shows your parents nationality and not yours. It might be enough to prove your citizenship in the UK, but this is not the UK, period.

apparently the Canadian embassy doesn't accept a Canadian passport as proof of citizenship. To renew your passport you need some kind of certificate of citizenship.

Another thought: are you saying that a person born in Britain to British parents who has never held a passport is not a British citizen?

According to the citizenship laws:


there is no requirement to hold or apply for a passport.

me thinks you are wrong about this YL6 (which would be a first)

Funnily enough, I've just come off the phone ordering a copy of my UK birth certificate from the Council in the area I was born. They only asked for information that would help them find the original birth certificate - nothing that someone who knew me doesn't know, or couldn't easily find out. Then I paid £8 with my debit card and they'll be popping it in the post tomorrow. If it's so easy to get a copy birth certificate, without any checks that you are who you say you are, then I'm wondering what the value of it is at all. I only got a copy because reading threads like this I thought I might need one when I moved to Germany (and I've lost my original copy).

Implicitly a British Citizen, yes, so long as he/she stays in UK. But no way of proving it to anyone else, or moving out of the country until a passport is issued.

just because you don't have a travel document (which is all a passport is) it doesn't mean you ARE NOT a citizen.

A British citizen with a British birth certificate can fill out a form, send it off with a certified copy of the birth certificate and signature from a guarantor and, hey presto, within a few weeks they have a brand spanking passport to use for travel.

A person who is not yet a citizen cannot do this and would have to either naturalise or register as a citizen first.

Unless you can show some information from the home office showing that possession of a passport is necessary to BE a British citizen if you are outside of the UK, then I think you'll have to admit you are wrong on this one.

What if I lost my passport? Would I suddenly stop being British and have to naturalise?

Ja, ja, ja, but will the plane take off?!

only if it has a valid passport.

OG I am with you on this one. That is what I meant by saying that he does have dual citizenship, even if he doesn't have a passport (assuming it wasn't revoked for some reason). Many babies do not have a passport, but they are citizens anyway. As an American you usually do not get a passport until you want to travel abroad (which many don't do), and you do not get an identity card or driver's license until a certain age (which by the way, is not a proof of citizenship). You are still a citizen. Having a passport or identity card of a country is not what grants you the citizenship. It is what proves it.
There are cases in which a baby is born with dual citizenship. It automatically is a citizen of two countries by birth. It is by birth, and not by applying for a passport or claiming both citizenships.

Your birth certificate proves (or goes towards proving) your right to citizenship; it is not, however proof of citizenship. You can't wave your birth certificate in front of an official to prove citizenship, but only as evidence at to your likely entitlement. Losing your passport does not loose your citizenship, it just inhibits your ability to prove it. Using your birth certificate (again) as evidence of your right, you can get a new passport. You can only have your birth certified in one country (you can't be born in two places) and you can use that certification to obtain proof of citizenship for that country, normally in the form of a passport. In most places certification of birth is sufficient for proof of citizenship. To obtain a dual citizenship other criteria (such as parental nationality) must be applied in order to get proof of that citizenship, e.g. in the form of a second passport.

I realise I'm being pedantic, but it's important to understand the value of the birth certificate as a means to getting proof of citizenship rather than the document itself being that proof

Owain...

Finally... someone who sees this from the same point of view as I have.

In order for me to get a British passport, I have to show my birth certificate that proves my nationality. The birth certificate is the proof on which the passport is issued.

C.

(Man... I thought I was going insane there for a minute...)

Cocolino, I think no one is going to argue on that one. However, you cannot use your birth certificate by itself to prove your EU/UK citizenship to German authorities. You still need the passport for that. In order to get the passport you need the birth certificate but that has nothing to do with German authorities.

You are certainly not going insane. Remaining stupid, maybe, but not going insane.

YorkshireLad,

It would be wise to refrain from calling me "stupid" until I have approached the authorities on this issue. I'll be posting the result of that meeting here.

In the mean time, I suggest a good foot bath and perhaps a toenail clipping just in case.

C.

Mariposa,

Would you agree then, that the Birth Certificate is proof of citizenship and my Canadian passport/drivers license proof of identity?

That's the hook I'm planning on using anyway... we'll see if it works.

I'm REALLY looking forward to posting the result of this here. Stay tuned.

C.

Stupidity is usually temporary, insanity often permanent. You thought you were going insane, so I fail to understand your knee-jerk reaction to my soothing words. However, enjoy your trip to the authorities while I prepare that portion of humble pie.