Removing old stone tiles and putting them back

A friend of mine has bought a flat here in Munich and is currently beginning the renovation process. The building is an Altbau, built in the 1870s. We were in the flat today, and EG, and we started ripping up the floor in the hallway. The floor was one of these soft laminate floors and there was a layer of thick foam under that. We were curious what was underneath, so we ripped it all up to discover the original stone floor underneath. The stone floor has these old stone tiles that look really ancient but have a beautiful pattern and makes it look like an old Renaissance palace or something. My friend likes the look and wants to keep them. But here is the problem: There is either no or very little insulation separating the old stone floor from the basement. We felt the stones and they were pretty damp, and had that "keller" smell to them. We think that this old stone floor is basically acting as a conductor of dampness from the basement, which is probably why the family before us had all these beautiful stones covered in the first place.

So, I just wanted to know if there were any TTers out there with any experiences of their own regarding old stone tiles. Is it possible to remove these beautiful old stone tiles, place a layer of insulation or even floor heating, and then put these stone tiles back? It would be a pretty difficult project, but it would be nice to preserve the old look of the hallway and have floor heating or insulation to get rid of the "keller" feel and dampness -- best of both worlds I suppose.

Any experience or advice on how to move forward with this would be much appreciated!

It might be possible, but will cost your friend a ton of $$$ to get it all redone the right way.
I'd say start by contacting a mason or a Tile'er that specializes in such projects.

In the end it might not be worth the time,money and effort..

I have a little experience from a project in a house I lived in in England, but I'm no professional. Due to a long-term drop in the water table the row of houses was slowly subsiding. Because they were Grade II listed we got a grant and then got expert surveyors in. In the end, and one by one we dug up all the floors of 24 houses to a depth of around a metre, filled the hole with concrete and then relaid a new screed.

When they started working on my house, they found the original 1830's quarry tiles, and they were just gorgeous (I have one at home here in Munich as a plant-pot stand).

The trick is not to damage them, this means finding the one in the worst condition and sacrificing it to get underneath the others. If you're really lucky one might be loose enough to use a big plunger to 'pull' it out. Because my quarry tiles were old, the original 1830's mortar had deteriorated enough to be able to carefully 'lift' them with a very wide chisel. It is a long and arduous process. Don't worry about the original mortar sticking on the back as this can then be cleaned off either by chisel (avoiding chipping the tiles), or if the mortar is holding aggressively by careful use of a grinding wheel. The faces can be restored used the same 'wheel' apparatus except with a polishing or buffing wheel, but let them get bone dry first (stack them on their ends on a couple of long wooden dowels with a small wooden 'choc' in between.

When you've got them all up, I think the practise is to dig down a little deeper, damp-proof line, and then fill with concrete (although I doubt it has to be 1 metre thick because you don't have the subsidence issues), then screed and mortar the tiles back into place, and finally protect the tiles with a seal (although I've totally forgotten what it is called, but it might have been a Unibond product).

As I said earlier, I am not a professional. There may be somebody online who knows the art finer than I.

Actually, there is an area of the hallway that he is losing because of the introduction of a lift. We could use the tiles from that area as our first sacrifice. I guess this is the kind of situation that you won't be able to gauge until you start getting your hands dirty.

Do you think there will be humidity issues? The foam between the soft laminate surface and the old tiles was kind of funky. Is this because it was just prohibiting the stone tiles from breathing?

it could be that the laminate floor wasnt letting it breath however a floor like that is always going to be cold .

Get in touch with the renovating soap on RTL II
Wohnen nach Wunsch
Tell your friend: Send them a picture of your hallway before laminate and after, yourself and/or family, the outside of the house etc. Explain just why you of all people should be shown on TV (and receive remuneration, I assume). Explain just how surprised you were to find these tiles and what a difference they will make once removed, dried and replaced. Be creative and convincing. Research the history of the house (Grundbuchauszug will show you the former owners), find out who lived there if you can, bother the Stadt München (Lokalbaukommission) about it. You just might qualify for financial help. Or at least keep us posted, this sounds cool.
Good luck!

That's true, which is why he wants to put some insulation or heating underneath. There probably isn't anything between these old stone tiles and the basement. Maybe we could put in insulation from the basement, attack the problem from underneath?

Yes of course that could be one option insulating the keller ceiling with Heraklit platten or hartschaum isolierungsplatten.

The Benchmark Team

It is kind of exciting actually. It was fun pulling out the laminate and foam to see what was underneath. The hallway really acts as the central artery of the flat. It has these nice arches in the ceiling that makes it look like an old monastery. If we could get these tiles restored it would really add character. My friend also plans on designing stained glass for the the upper panes of the doors that lead off the hallway to try and give it a Renaissance/Gothic fusion look that you might see in Santa Croce or Santa Maria Novella in Florence. These old stone tiles have that lily shape that you see in a lot of old buildings from the Renaissance in Tuscany.

Most of the houses where I live have Minton Tiles in the hallways but people usually cover them for the same reason. I would be surprised if you can insulate then from underneath tbh.

Depending on the design you have your friend could always just strategically place some rugs down during the winter. During summer the floors can be really good at keeping the place cool

I'm no expert, but I wonder if the layer of foam was intended as a kind of heating insulation, rather than damp protection. Foam doesn't sound like the kind of thing you would use for keeping moisture out. You might want to think about putting in some proper heat insulation before you put the tiles back, if you've got a cold, damp cellar underneath.

You might also need to get the floor dried out professionally. I discovered recently that there are firms who do just this, when a water pipe sprang a leak in the block of flats where I live, and they got this firm in to dry out the damp patches on the walls in the affected apartments.

It is less likely with ceramics, but depends on what they are. If they're original you should have less problems.

Also, when I mentioned 'sacrificing' I was talking about a single tile to get under the others. Keep as many as you can, including the ones from where the lift will go. That way if you end up with more tiles than you need you can always use them to complete fittings (internal window shelves, decorative features, etc.). It is hard work, but more fun if you are doing it yourself with a professional 'overseer', and the results can be stunning... and add value to the place.

Ah! And of course, I believe a few of us TTers would like to see a photo reportage of the project. I'm very curious as to the design.

I'll take photos tomorrow!

This is sounding absolutely fascinating. Please, please document it!

Here is a pic of what the those old stone tiles look like. It looks like we are going to leave them in place and try and restore them. We found out today that there is heating in the basement.

What lovely tiles!

Nice - that will give the place a touch of class. That's if they're all in the same good condition. Then again, if you have to remove some tiles for the lift installation, you can use them to replace any damaged ones.

Working with a building as old as that, I'd advise getting an expert who knows his stuff about old buildings, because a lot of things can be very different from modern ones, and you don't want to do irreparable damage.

Some of the tiles further down the hall are in worse condition, but I'm sure we could get an expert in to see what kind of restoration can be done. I imagine tiles can be touched up and polished. We'll see. It is kind of exciting. It makes me want to be home owner, actually. I wish I were more crafty and better with my hands. I can barely change a light bulb on my own.

Renovations are still going on at this flat. My friend finally uncovered the floor and has exposed the tiles. Looks like they just need a good cleaning.

Yeah they look really nice, we also have old tiles like this in our apartment here... I love them!

Noticed this post because I actually AM a stone mason! until I scrolled down to the photos, I thought we were talking about stone - a la naturstein. Those are ceramic or some other fired clay. Stone slabs are usually at least 3cm thick and can be removed without damaging to many. Then you would dry out the floor, seal it, lay styro then new estrich then put the stone back. These tiles would be a real bitch to get out without breaking.
So long story short: you want a warm floor, lay right on top of the old one - want a nice floor, clean that one and get some Slippers!