Alex Salmond tells Queen he wants independence

What do you think of Alex Salmond telling the Queen he wants independence for Scotland?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6255222.stm




If he's first minister, he has a duty to represent the Scottish Parliament and, in case he hasn't noticed, not every Scot wants independence. The independence argument doesn't just seem parochial, narrow-minded and stuck in some fantasy idea of Scotland's past but also unrealistic after 400 years of union. What has Scotland got left to live on now, if it goes independent? The Scottish Nationalists are always banging on about North Sea oil, as if that could sustain the country indefinitely and as if the rest of the UK would willingly abandon the oil fields to Scotland. (Though Alex Salmond could probably generate enough hot air as an alternative energy source.) In view of what they and the Tories are capable of in the local councils, the mess they could make with the country as a whole doesn't bear thinking about.

Besides, with Tony, Gordon and all the other Scots running the country , why would anyone want to give that up?

Well, seeing as that is the whole point of his party and that the SNP rose to power on an explicit independence ticket, why wouldn't he say that? He's just saying to the Queen (ERI not ERII to Salmond btw) what he has been saying to everyone else.

Debating whether Scottish independence is right or feasible is another matter.

The strength of the SNP at Holyrood is not necessarily becasue the majority of Scotland's voters either support the poicies of the SNP or independence for Scotland explicitly.
Rather more, the f*** ups of a corrupt Labour administration and the blood letting and split on the Scottish left based upon the issue of where Tommy Sherridan puts his dick.

Good point. Though if the Scots are prepared to let independence in through the back door because of protest votes, makes you wonder if they're even fit to govern themselves.

Lots of things happen by default or mistake in politics.
It's nothing to do with "deservedness".

You can see broadly similar voter (in)activity in England as well.

I agree with him strongly!

Too much talk about dicks and back doors and demands here. He said "I believe in the restoration of an independent Scotland. Others in this chamber take a different view". I see no demand for an idenpendent Scotland there, just his personal opinion to which he is entitled.

If it happens it will be messy. And the normal people of Scotland who swallowed the whole independance romatic rubbish wll be the ones who suffer on both sides of the boarder. Fear any polititian who offers independance as a a way to future riches and growth. I bet you a scottish pound note not one feasability study has taken into account that the anti-scottish backlash that will follow (whipped up by the fans of gutter press and the telegraph) will seriously dent scottish economics. All those call centres will no longer be viable. Who wants to talk to a scottish traitor? Scots in England will be discriminated against and anything with the word scottish in it will suffer massive image problems. Believe me it will get messy.

More to the point I would have asked about that UFO that appears to have landed on her head. I don't think the independance thing matters much to her as she is also the Queen of Scotland and she would go with them surely?

From the quoted article. I will store that for future use here.

And the view of his party. And the key point in the platform on which he was elected.

How do you see them suffering?

Assuming Scotland and England both remain in the EU and they don't introduce border controls, that is?

I see people suffering when after independance the new Nationalist government starts introducing new laws requiring everyone to wear kilts and speak garlic.

Speak garlic? That would be the Auld Alliance coming back then?

So the alium sativum lily would replace the thistle as National Flower? Sort of a throw-back on the Bourbons.

Yes exactly those Jacobites from the continent in league with the French and the Spanish. I know we are all EU partners now but can you with all your heart openly say that you trust them?

It would appear that the Nationalist Scottish Executive has already made a good start with the funny stuff. Introducing anti-English legislation clearly designed to wind people up south of the border and encourage English support for Scottish independence.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/e...icle1909775.ece

As an Englishman who's lived in Scotland I can see both sides. The problem is as soon as they gain independace they'll start up trying to divide the country into Catholics and Protestants. I'm only half joking here. If you want to hear real hatred sit in a Glasgow pub when and old firm game is on.

A quick look at the costs of the Scottish Parlament shows how a dream can turn into a nightmare. Perhaps they would be better to keep dreaming?

Perhaps it's the dream of a British Superstate which DID turn into a nightmare

In what way?

I guess the main concern from Scots is that everything is English, and in particulary London oriented. Murray is British but a good English sports person is English and these sorts of complaints. I can see this completely as it is true. To temper that such a large percentage of the population live in and around London it's understandable there is some bias. As somebody from Yorkshire I saw that bias as well but not as much.

Alot of the Scottish economy is dependant on England. My example of call centres is one place where being Scottish could be of a massive disadvantage if the scottish polititians provoke and piss off the English public. RBS and and anyother company with English competition would also suffer from the backlash (There already is some very uncomfortable tones arising about the university thingie. Which is probably against EU law anyway surely?) which will follow if smug arrogant provocation are combined within the debate, which sadly most Scottish Nationalists I have ever met seemed to have perfected as an artform.


The boarders are already starting to go up. In people's heads. It won't be a rational debate. It will be the divorce from hell, with scotland trying to squeeze every last penny out of the deal, and everybody else trying to stop them. The right wing press on both sides will have a field day. I can see the headlines from the SUn before my eyes. Fock the Jock! A Nationalist Field day I tell thee!

I agree that the scrapping, though political rather than sectarian, would start the minute the border went up.


It's embarrassing. So arrogant.

Ok. And what's the downside?

It could be argued that Scottish politicians would be less interested in pissing off the English public if they were independent.

Anyway, why should the English public be pissed off? I get the impression the suggestion of Scottish independence is quite popular in England (?)

Scotland also stands to gain if it can separate itself from the pound sterling and join the euro. I can't help thinking England won't be doing that for several decades at least.

In practice, the United Kingdom has been almost completely dominated by England. Scotland (and my own country Wales) are left to languish in the monarchist, pound-sterling slow lane while Ireland (or most of it) accelerates over the horizon.

Poverty and inflation. As I said It'll be the poors sods of normal people who'll lose out.

Apart from a very possible anti scottish backlash. There will be no British army anymore, and Scotland wont need that many soilders. No navy bases either. North Sea Oil isn't even going to be there, the industry is already in decline. So expect alot of angry young unemployed on your doorstep too and local base dependant economies go tits up (as happened here when the americans pull out)

With no big brother to bail you out.

The greatest Scot ever was the King James who suggested union. Scotland has missed the boat. It can not expect an economy boom via EU subsidies like Ireland, and It can no longer be bailed out by the UK. Plus and this is a big plus and a very interesting one. The next elections after the independance will be the first ever where all Scots get to deceide what happens. That means those who are living abroad, ie England and Wales. That could lead to political turmoil as the infux of non-resident voters will mean some change in the landscape and stability. That added to all the other factions already lurking in the wings, highlands/lowlands, catholic/protestant, glasgow/edingburgh.

But as one nationalist once said to me. Yes but at least we'll have our own flag.
True but it may be all your left with. I suggest deep frying and washing down with irn bru.

In practice the UK is dominated by London. Not England. And will continue to do so. Can Scotland compete on financial services? Tax haven? Who pays then for the unemployed?

It would be the process leading up to it. Mud fight meets bun fight. The Sun vs The Record *shivers*

I have no problem with Scotland being independant. Bloody great milstone away from the english neck if you ask me. But clean cut. No bullshit whinging about England in any form or manner owing anything please. Stand on your own two feet and good bye.


How? Don't you need customers to buy things what ever currency?

The Republic of Ireland might have boomed over the last 15 years but there is no guaranteee that is going to happen to an independent Scotland.

Ireland's boom has broguht with it disadvantages anyway. Reliance on oil is amongst the highest in Europe. The infrastructure can't cope.
The cost of living had sharply increased and it remains on the European periphary.

There won't be the money from the EU (Slovakia or Romania are more deserving) and the multi billion pound subsidies paid for by taxpayers in England
who themselves don't enjoy the fruits thereof would dry up too.

I don't see why that should be the case. Even if that was the case Scottish stuff would no doubt have an excellent image in places other than England.

They might lose some army and navy jobs but on the flip side they would gain a whole bunch of administrative jobs that come with having an independent nation

If the majority of Scots would like it then I think it would be a good idea - good luck to them

Crickey thats Monkstown and me almost basicly agreeing on an economic thingie...

On the issue of bigger government and "who is to pay for the unemployed" etc. it should be noted that there is a division within the SNP.
While some sections of the party primarily in the largest central cities) lean towards the left-ish, a lot of the leadership from the more NE of the country are very much free marketeers.

They look slavveringly towards Ireland where I hear there is wholesale dismantling of the welfare state.

Just like Ireland?

with the others looking to Scandinavia where the welfare state isn't so bad

To the original post - why shouldn't he say what he said?

Fancy a shag?

The SNP's very much a coalition which would soon break down after achieving independence.

Who is Scotlands biggest export partner? Where can they increase capacity to make up for the loss of that market, infact even the denting of that market.


Duh? That was a joke yes? Beamte are highly renowned for driving an economy forward.

I agree though if they want it. Cheerio! We'll still buy your whisky. Or will we?

I'd have no problem buying Scottish stuff if they were independent

You can paint a bleak picture of remaining within the UK as well though, if you choose to.

I don't think the economic argument is all that decisive one way or another - either from the Scottish or from the English perspective.

IMO, it's more simply a matter of a country needing the self-respect that it can't possibly have while subservient to another, much larger neighbour.

I don't understand that. Could you clarify?


Be gentle I've just eaten.

Ireland remained poor even under its "own" ruling class until the 1990s.
Whether an independent Scotland can re-invent its economy is the issue.

I'd make a point of it!

Starting with a celebratory 18 year old Macallan.

How about a special "Independence" edition?

Within the EU it won't really need to

I think you'll find that Scotland would survive quite well independently, the North Sea Oil & Gas is in decline, but that decline would certainly slow down if it was not being sold by the barrel by London. We've been through this many many times before. A steady parade of "experts" claiming it would be disasterous for Scotland to do so. Really? Since when has London looked out for Scotland? This has been done to death, the biggest study was done back in the 70s, then hushed up. See LINK

The EU will not save Scotland. Ireland was lucky. Right place right time. Then came Spain and Portugal, now its the countries in the east who a reaping development funds. Even if scotlands economy managed to stay on the level it is now, which I seriously doubt especialy with the problems that have been highlighted within the Political circles, Being stuck out in the middle of nowhere isn't going to help Scotland.

Oh it must be a conspiracy. You're on the wrong thread. You need to be of voting age to be on this one.

It was a conspiracy as it so happens, try reading the article. Governments have been corrupt since the year dot.

And this thread was going so well. Sigh.

Back to reality. How many scots live in England. It would interest me to see what the political landscape would be like after independance. (forget econmic as we know it'll be a down hiller there, well after the initial yippee blip)

Of course it would have to!

The multi billion pound subsidies from England would cease.
The EU subsidies that played their part in kick starting the Irish economy would not flow to Scotland, other recipients are more deserving.

Oil revenues will decline with time.
Coal, steel, ship building and heavy manufacturing are dead or at least mature industries.

There was the high tech boom in Scotland, just as there was in Ireland and North East England but that time has passed. Manufacturing is now in China. I remember call centres in Ireland as the wages were cheaper and young people were happy to live there. For Scotland to keep or gain call centres it needs to get or train the staff and keep wages down. Low wages aren’t going to be able to finance big government or the welfare programmes.

Service industries? Possibly film and television? Tourism?
Scotland has its own banking industry already but how much of a role would in play in international banking? Doesn’t matter a frig what the legal tender is in the UK, London will do business in any currency. The main structural reason the UK is not in the Euro (variable rate mortgages and a high level of home ownership) applies as much to Scotland as to England.

You seem to be a self proclaimed "expert" on so much Gids, I'm surprised you don't know already! Scotland has just over 5 million people living there, I've no idea how many ex-pats are in England, or elsewhere in the world, but I'd take a rough shot and say no more than 600.000 worldwide, this would be my own estimate and does not take in to account those who have permanently emigrated to places like S.Africa, Australia, NZ and the USA in the 60s and 70s.

With such a populace and exports to England/Europe of Oil, gas and water (Yes Scotland exports a vast amount of water to England!), coupled together with control over their own taxation, both local and national, where exactly do you see Scotland failing? Scotland has been bolstering the chancelors coffers for most of the last 50 years, getting very little in return. If Scotland had been independent in the 70s they would be one of the wealthiest nations on earth. I'm not saying that would happen now, but it certainly wouldn't be a disaster.

Salmond also supports the Euro, that would make Scotland a far better trading partner with Europe.

If I knew I wouldn't ask would I? Or should I make up theories? I like facts. Not as sexy and exciting and rebelious as tin foil hats but never the less. I'm glad your grasps of economics is as good as your structual engineering knowledge. I may even use the google thingie to check that. I believe it would be more.