Going to work in Johannesburg, South Africa

I'm thinking to go there for a job.
But I've heard that Johannesburg is very dangerous. How bad it is and how to stay safe there?
Can anyone help?

Better you than me. I have a mate that lives in Cape Town and goes to Jo'Burg on business.

Problem is 99% chance you will be OK if sensible - problem is when the violence does get you - it is super nasty evil.

For example official stats for carjacking:

http://www.suedafrika.net/johannesburg/crime.html

State that you have a 1 in 1,000 chance of being carjacked per annum. I reckon however that if you are white and driving something half-decent (rather than a total local wreck) this is probably 1 in 200. If you stay 5 years that makes it 1 in 40 chance of that crime alone. Add burglary, rape, murder, mugging etc and it just doesn't sound like fun.

But if single and it is well-paid then of course still worth a crack! If you like a bit of danger in your life.

I've heard that you shouldn't use any train, bus or take a cab. I don't have a helicopter and I can not believe everybody is just to walking on foot.
It's nothing nice in being caught in a fight. That's why I would like to hear what "sensible" means.
I'm sure you can imagine I'm not going there "just for the fun of it". The only danger I like is that of going to the bus or train station in the last minute.

Thanks for the info!

JE's right. The problem isn't the crime as much as the violent, gratuitous nature of it. Joburg is a cesspool run by Nigerian druglords, packed with unemployed, illegal immigrants from Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Malawi, etc and the SA Police is a corrupt, incompetent mess.

It's a sad fact, but Johannesburg is more dangerous than Baghdad. The chances are that you WILL become a crime statistic. Getting shot just for your cellphone is common, as is VIOLENT rape, hijackings, robberies, etc.

If you really have to work in Joburg, rather live in Pretoria and commute to your job (about an hour away). Pretoria is much safer than Joburg, being home to a large population of conservative Afrikaners, who don't take the crime shit lying down.

Why not come over here for a recce and see for yourself? Stay a couple of weeks, do the safari thing, go on a township tour, and decide after that if it's for you or not. Even though it's bad, plenty of tourists and residents make it through each year relatively unscathed.

One thing is for certain - it is a BEAUTIFUL place, with very FRIENDLY, HOSPITABLE people, FANTASTIC climate and an AMAZING standard of living. (Oh, and PLENTY of funeral service providers.)

Pretty morbid your last remark but thanks.

It is such a shame. Beautiful country with a climate of fear in the background.

No money is worth working there.

Sorry Aero, but it's a fact. Maybe living here has blunted my sensibilities. To put your mind at rest though, the funeral service providers actually make their money out of the shear number of people dying from HIV/Aids and motor vehicle accidents - not from violent crime.

I used to write for an online corporate news site of one of SA's largest groups, which owns most of the leading transport companies. They have been forced to fund and set up their own Aids clinics at truck stops because, at the current rate of infection, they will not have anyone to drive their trucks by 2015!

As a South African, I think that what was said in this thread was, well to put it lightly, allot of melodramatic bullshit. True Joburg is pretty dangerous, but then again how many people actually live in the centre of Joburg? If he is considering a job there it is most likely in a nice area like Sandton or similar, which last time I checked, is one of the richest areas in the whole of africa. Sandton`s ecconomy alone is a few times bigger than that of the all the other african countries, combined. The thing is, Joburg is just another big true city with crime. Sure if youre coming from Munich then everything looks dangerous. But as said, if you wise up a bit and stick to your neck of the woods and dont do anything silly then you will be ok. If you do have the opportunity for a good job with a good salary, the quality of life that you will be able to lead down there will be much higher than what you have here. Bigger houses. Heck you can own your own house. Excellent vacation spots. Lots of outdoor and easy going mentality. In the end everything is a risk. But as the saying goes if you dont risk and live all your life in a safe comfy little box then you dont have the possibilty of reaching far greater things.
If its a good oportunity then I say go for it.

To be honest I don't really know at the moment where exactly the job will be. I hope it will be in a safer area but I'm not sure.

Maddul, obviously nobody will be living in the centre of Joburg. It is, however, the breeding place of the chap with the illegal firearm who follows you to the gates of your nice Sandton house with its nine-feet walls, alarm system, electric fencing and what not, and shoots you through your head in your nicely paved driveway.

You would also have noted:


The last bit obviously tongue in cheek.

I don't know for how long you've been out of the country, but for the people living here it's anything but a load of melodramatic bullshit. Tell that to the victims, black and white, rich and poor, who live in fear of their lives every day. You sound like our idiot Minister of Safety and Security.

The level of violent crime here is not conjecture, nor some myth sucked out of the collective thumbs of ordinary people - it is fact. Crime is an overwhelming reason why more than a million people of all races have fled the country.

Besides, government agencies do not issue traveller advisories on hearsay. Go to any country's embassy website and read what they have to say about SA. It's not good reading if you're a local tour guide.

Hey Aero, another Saffer here. The crime-bit is a real problem. My best friend, who lives in Cape Town, got a very good job offer in the vicinity of Johannesburg and turned it down for that very reason. I partly agree with Maddul's summary, but disagree with the statement that crime in a big city like Joburg is pretty much like crime anywhere else in any other big city. Crime is a lot worse and the statistics speak for themselves.

Coming from Cape Town which is said to be safe, I have to tell you that I do not know one person who has not been burgled or attacked already. My whole family lives in SA and so do many of my closests friends. My sister has escaped rape 3 times already, she lives on her own. She has had a man in her home twice already. My mother has had a man in her home too(dad's dead). My best friend sleeps with a gun under her pillow and she is not the nervous type and most certainly not a crazy farmer's daughter. She grew up in New York and Zurich and is very much an educated, feminine, city girl who normally detests weapons.

All this sounds pretty bad, BUT if you do not mind living behind high walls, security systems and restricting yourself to going out to shopping malls or closed off security areas, you will love living there. I do not know of a more beautiful place and yes, the people are very nice. You do see black and white living in harmony and everybody suffers from the crime. The black people more so than the white people, because they are too poor to afford protecting themselves.

I also object to the portrayal of crime being caused by the evil Zimbabwean and Nigerian people. Crime is a South African problem and we must all take the responsibility for this.

Despite all of this I would love to return to Cape Town. Life is still a lot lighter and more pleasant over there than here. I would never consider living in Joburg though.

Is the violent crime in SA something that is recent or has it been like this always? How safe is it for tourists?

I've been to Jo'burg many times. My folks live there for about four and a half years. I'd have no worries whatsoever going as a tourist and I'd definitely consider working there for a couple of years if I could get my European contract rates.

When was this Keydeck? How many years ago did your folks live there?

If you stick to protected areas at night and do not flaunt your wealth, you'll be fine.

I think they came back about three years ago.

The BBC had a video report on crime at Joburg a while ago, hope the link works:
Crime in Joburg
The BBC got scolded by the SA government as being "racists" for having broadcasted this video. That's another big problem in SA.

Sorry, link not working - I am looking for it.
Crime in Joburg
Ok, fixed it.

What is?

I'm sorry if these questions seem naive, but I'm curious to know more about SA.

In cities like Joborg and Cape Town, when you walk the streets during the day, what is the percentage of white people to black people that you see? Is it the case that anyone of European heritage sticks to private clubs, and gated communities, and don't use the city day-to-day?

Not taking the responsibility for problems and blaming it on others. If you criticise the government you often have to hear that you are being racist. The government is behaving the same way at the moment when people start questioning the ability of SA to prepare in time for the Football World Championship in 2010. To give the government some slack though, they really are doing a much better job than the old government ever did and have huge problems to face. But always playing the race card is becoming annoying.

In Joburg I'd say 90% black, 10% other. In Cape Town it's about 60% black, 40% other.


Not quite that bad, but going that direction, yes.

I totally agree with Major Bummer. Joburg definitely has a crime problem but as long as you are sensible you should be safe. If you are unsure I suggest that you spend a week in SA specifically in areas where you will work & live and then decide. Maybe you will be surpised...

Just an aside they had a UK programme that looked into the gated communities in the USA. There was some daft statistic that *something like* 50% of new houses in California being built were in gated communities (cannot find the stats right now). So it is not just an SA issue. Pretty much wrecks society integration.

Found the programme link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries...ted-gates.shtml

Has SA have a history of violent street crime or is this a new phenomenon the past 10 years or so in the post-apartheid era?

Definitely true -- gated communities exist all over the place. We even have a couple in Boston.

Hi aero,

You must not be put off completely by the crime in SA, I know this because my family have houses their and live their throughout the year. I spent a lot of time there when I was younger and the crime is a problem just as it is in any major city but things in SA just seem more real because of the laws. For example you have to have security on your house - thus every house looks like a fortress, your allowed to carry guns so most people have them and flash them.

The point raised earlier about living in Pretoria is indeed relevant however if you are driving something nice then you do risk it getting jacked doing a daily commute, the guy who said you get shot for your cell phone is taking a rare case and exploiting it. This does not happen and if it does it because he or she was in the wrong area (avoid Hilbrow) walking around flashing a cell phone, the society is adapting to counter the crime however recent segregation laws are trying to combat white based ghettos so keep this in mind.

My recommendation would be to move to Sandton in Jo'burg, property is rising here and there is loads to do. If you’re going with a wife or gf they will need to get used to a big change in lifestyle something a lot of girls could never adapt to.

If you like freedom to walk around in the streets then don’t go! If you have no problem seeing security guards carrying Uzis at the supermarket then you will be fine. However restaurants shopping malls and stores are safe and most gardens are huge with pools etc as long as you get a decent area and good security then you should be fine.

Either way there are a lot of pros and cons, the major cons is the crime but you can easily fall in love with the place (a lot of people do) and from when I was last over, the government have cleaned it up a lot for the world cup.

Finally don't listen to the statistic, the SA government have no idea how many people are in the country and with a corrupt police force, they have no idea of the genuine statistics.

I know this post is fairly negative, but I hope this helps. Nothing has ever happened to me or my family.

Crime has become a lot worse during the past 10 years, but crime has always been a problem. Whenever you have a huge discrepancy between rich and poor, you will have this problem and in any country.

I have to take issue with you on this one, this happens quite often. People even get killed, brutally killed, for the few Rand they earn per week or for a packet of cigarettes.

On the whole, if you want to live in SA don't do following:

- take public transport
- drive with your windows down in bad areas
- walk around in unprotected areas at night
- flaunt your wealth
- leave windows and doors open at home
- let people pretending to beg for food into your home
- resist a robbery or try to play the hero if you do get attacked

I concur!

I consider myself a very lucky SA citizen in that none of my friends or family have been shot or killed. However, as a Pretoria resident (a much safer city than Johannesburg), I have had the following:

House burgled x 1
Parents' house burled x 1
In-laws' house burgled x 1
Neighbour's house burgled x 1
Theft from car x 2
Cars stolen x 3
Sister carjacked at knife point x 1
Close friends carjacked at gun point x 2
Friends armed robbery x 1
Neighbour armed robbery x 1
Neighbour murdered x 1 (different neighbour)
Almost caught in police vs robbers shootout x 1
Almost shot in citizen vs robber shootout x 1

To people living in a civilised country this may sound over the top, but every single day I walk around my property looking for signs that someone has been watching my movements (flattened grass, cigarette butts, plastic bread wrappers, cans, etc). I live on small 32 ha farm, which has 1 ha fenced and I do this when I walk the dogs outside of the fence.

Since I work from home I don't have a set travelling routine, so that's no problem, but people who commute to work every day at the same time and follow the same route are easy targets for carjackers and burglars.

Some of the things Matt9882 have said are true, but not this:


There is no law that states that you have to secure your house. If that was so then about 45 million people would be breaking the law right now. You are allowed to carry a handgun, but most people don't have them and certainly don't flash them. The waiting period for a firearm license is more than 2 years and the approval rate for new licenses is about 5% of all applicants.


The only time you'll see a security guard carrying a gun at a supermarket is when a cash management company comes to pick up the cash boxes. And they don't carry Uzi's! They carry either semi-auto shotguns, R5 assault rifles or (in rare cases) MP5's. Normal guards at supermarkets only carry batons, mace and handcuffs.

And restaurants are no longer safe either. The new BIG THING for robbers is for up to 15 armed thugs to run into a packed restaurant, usually just before closing time when the staff is tired and customers pissed. They rob the restaurant of its takings, plus the clientele of their cash, jewellery, watches, and car keys. While some of the robbers keep the restaurant occupants on the floor the rest systematically go through the parking areas pushing the buttons on the car remote controls and choosing a few nice, expensive rides for the getaway.

Whatever one can say about SA. It definitely isn't boring!

Think I won't be visiting anytime soon for a holiday.

I can see a job for you at the SA tourist board is beckoning.

I saw a programme about the "Numbers" gangs (26's, 28's etc) in Capetown recently. And Capetown of course is the nice safe part. They had a shitload of guns, and said the standard bribe to the police when caught in posssession was about 150 Rand (£10).

Also my mate in Capetown said his buddy has a Porsche 911. When stopped for speeding he doesn't even bother to talk, or discuss anymore. Just opens the window an inch and sticks the standard bribe out, and waits for them to take it.

My mate himself got caught pissed driving his scooter. Once the bribe was sorted they escorted him home, keeping other traffic out the way for his weaving moped. There was a big cocaine trafficking bust from a friend of a friend. Case never got to court because the police regretfully "lost the file".

Would drive me bonkers to live in the Wild West like that.

Losing a police docket doesn't cost too much (I think the current LTD rate is R300). That's also the rate for new vehicle registration papers and the standard bribe for illegal immigrants to immigration cops.

The rate to get off a speeding fine is R100, but it must be done properly by handing the officer your ID book with the cash in the plastic fold. He will walk off to his car, pretend to check your details and return to hand you back the ID. If the R100 is gone you're off. If not, it wasn't enough! The obvious flaw in this (and why it's really open bribery) is that we have plastic, credit card sized drivers licenses here and there never really is a reason for a traffic cop to see your ID book.

Drunk driving also is a huge problem, but you will hardly ever go through a road block, so people drive all over the place totally snotters. It's no wonder the car accident rate is so high (the same as the USA, but with about 10 times fewer cars). I have been through road blocks only twice in 22 years of driving.


You'll get used to it. Actually, one thing that has sort of bothered me since my first visit to TT is that many people complain about the anally retentive German burocracy. I have started wondering if I would rather live in a society that has a high level of violence, but relative freedom to do what I want otherwise, or a safer society full of draconian rules and regulations.

Geez...I don't care how beautiful it is...after reading this thread, I doubt I'll EVER set foot in Johannesburg.

Also, I don't understand South African saying how the standard of living there is AMAZING, and then in the next breath turning around and talking about how many times his neighbor/sister/mother-in-law was car-jacked/raped/murdered

Impressive in a disturbing way. I've only been for holidays, and had a chat with a french guy who had been living in Joburg with his family for 5 years. He was a banker of some sort, and certainly didn't live in a shady area. In 5 years the house had been burgled 3 times, once the (armed) burglars locked the family up in a room to do their 'job'. I don't think I could cope with that.

Germanshelley - I meant standard of living in terms of what you can buy with your money.

For 100 000 Euros you can buy a 3-bedroom, modern house with a pool, double garage and servants quarters, in a good neighbourhood. Most middle-class families here have two cars, go away on holiday twice a year and have kids in good schools, have a housemaid and a gardener. The infrastructure is very good, electricity is the cheapest in the world, we have world class private health care, etc.

To most people the crime situation is a fair swop for all of the above. There is a sort of resignation here that it can be anyone's turn at any time, so there's no point in actually worrying yourself to death. As long as you're vigilant all the time you minimise the risk, but there really isn't much you can do when push comes to shove, so you handle each situation as it arrives. That's the general attitude. I suppose if you live with something long enough, the fear of it fades.

(By the way, the neighbour was murdered only once.)

I'm thinking if I lived there each holiday would be around 182 days in length.

You can tough it out on the day that's left

Well, admittedly I am not the brightest person on the forum so please help me understand following:

• Your mate's buddy lives in one of the most beautiful cities on earth
• He drives a very expensive car, a Porsche911
• He probably also has a big fancy house
• He can drive his Porsche911 the way he wants to, if a copper stops him it will cost him a few Rand and that's all that will happen
• ..and this he does and gets away with in a country with one of the highest accident rates world-wide and
• a country where most people will work their entire lives cleaning and doing the gardening for people like him and themselves never be able to afford to buy such a car

So what on earth is your friend complaining about? Not to mention the other stories about your other friends. Yeah, evil Zimbabweans and evil Nigerians.

He is not complaining. He and his buddy choose to live in SA. I never said they were complaining. They like it there.

I was just pointing out that it is a bit lawless.

At first glance I like the idea of being able to pay £10 to get off any legal infringement. The flip side is that this means the baddies with big guns can also bribe their way
out of trouble making the coppers rather useless frankly.

As it happens I pretty much drive any speed I fancy round here as well, so it's no big deal.

Ah English, have you ever been to South Africa or to Cape Town? If you did you would understand why people would still want to live there. Very nice people of all races and nationalities, beautiful landscapes, PERFECT weather (in Cape Town that is), easy relaxed lifestyle, friendly service wherever you go, clean public toilets wherever you go, beautiful beaches, excellent food, excellent wine, some of the most beautiful women in the world, incredibly diverse fauna and flora and the best part is, nobody ever calls you a scheiss Ausländer.

Cannot but confirm and totally agree with that, EXCEPT


Just substitute everything she said with Joburg and you're good! Agggh Kapies...will they ever learn?

TIA doods , TIA

Agree with Maddul about the weather. Cape Town's weather sucks compared to the Highveld.

How much of a commute to go snowboarding?

Not read all your thread but i presume you are going over there on one of the Aerospace Contracts?

If so, you need to talk to some of the jobbers who are already there and they will put you straight as regards safe areas to live etc

If your agent can't give you contact e-mail addies or phone numbers of existing people there then send me a PM and i will give you some.

Timmeh, the only time you can snowboard on snow that has fallen from heaven is for about a month in a place called Tiffendell Snow Resort, which is on one of the Drakensberg's highest peaks and is about 4 hours drive from Joburg.

You'll need a 4x4 to get there. On either side of the real snow season (July) they have snowmaking machines that provide the powder, but then you're not getting much of a run.

Sounds like this place sucks then. 4 hours to a mountain with unreliable snow for only one month a year! That must mean that it doesn't snow much in Winter too, so the weather sounds far from perfect like someone described earlier.