Breakdown of a German/American relationship

I am living with a German boyfriend (43) for 2 years. We have been blissfully happy - truly - for all of this time. However, suddenly, our relationship is dangling by a thread thanks to his 21 year old niece who came to visit for 2 weeks. I experienced conversations that didn't "exist," comments that were "jokes," although she speaks perfect English & could laugh/joke with me all day until he came home wherein it then became all German and private. She was rude to me and displayed what I feel to be inappropriate behavior not only as a guest, but as a niece. My gut feeling is one of jealousy & competition - sad to say, but yes. I'm 33 and am in know way jealous of her, however, I think she very well could have been of me. I'd met her before & stayed with them for 2 weeks (but was surrounded by her entire family) so this was the first (and I can assure you LAST time she'll ever come to my home without one of her parents) ever again. I've been around the language enough to know what is being said or discussed without having to know the words said. I also know that emotion is universal in ANY language. My "husband" denies any of this took place and that I'm crazy & "living in my own homeade world." It was obvious to me at some point my very presence disturbed her. She visits every 2 years...so since we've only been together for 2 years so I wasn't living with him then, he was single and was able to devote his undivided time, attention, affection, and of course, his cash - to her. It appeared to bother her that these things were being divied now..I can understand & even sympathize with that point of view, but gives her no right to disrespect me, in my home, or in front of my "husband" just because she thinks I can't understand what she says - and further, he has no right to LET her. In fact, several times they were talking, I'd answer/discuss back in English & the conversation flowed - no one once said, "oh no, you've misunderstood something that's not what we're talking about." Thus, proves my point that I do know enough - enough at least I've learned, to be dangerous. She began making comments & "jokes" (of which he denies) - and I know he's covering for her. She ruined my mother's belated Mother's Day (in my opinion because she was pissed she was asked to move into another room) and our 2nd anniversary as a couple - in fact, she refused to say Happy Anniversary to us & claimed "we don't do this in Germany." I think this is crap, but whatever...remember her written and verbal English is excellent so these comments could have been made in English if they were harmless. She couldn't say anything nice on our special day, but did manage to make comments suggesting we "get a room" or he translated, "because of you two, I have no home," because he kissed me - on our anniversary & "the walls are thin." These things (except "get a room") were said in German & I respect one is most comfortable speaking their native tongue, but not because you don't have the guts to say what you mean (& mean what you say) to my face when you CAN in English. I was nothing but nice, accommodating, and hospitable, but it wasn't enough for her. I chalk it up to her age, being single (& bitter), rather than happy as she says, and jealous over her Uncle - which is gross to me as well. Our affection was in NO way distasteful or would be uncomfortable for anyone. I also failed to mention that within the 1st hour of her arrival, she revealed her breast to show her pierced nipple. I was a bit surprised, but know nudity is no big deal in Europe...having said that, seeing her completely nude the next morning while trying to eat my breakfast didn't help, but again, I can respect another's culture. I will say though, we have plenty of guests in from EU/Germany quite frequently and I've never seen any of them nude - ever. Again, don't assume I'm jealous because she's 21 - she's no where close to the visual you probably have in your head. I'd finally had enough of many comments, jokes, and behaviors I've left out - as this is already plenty of info - so I said something finally, after the last comment "lazy Americans." I was wishing her well in her new career path as she just finished her apprenticeship. I have recently changed careers mid-life after working for corporate America for 15 years - yes, I started quite young at 18. I congratulated her and wished her well and said that although I did well in the business environment, my heart wasn't in it and basically, a good for you & don't wast your time doing something you don't love when she'd made the "joke" (although no one was laughing) and he translated it to say that "she didn't know Americans worked hard." I took offense to this as her Uncle has recently become a citizen and apparently works hard enough to pay for her airline tickets, all of her shopping, etc. - not to mention, I knew she was talking about me, but again, not TO me, just about me in German although a joke about me could be said TO me in English. Anyway, I'd had enough & I brought up all the things that bothered me. Of course she cried and he got very pissed, but we talked it out (she still refused to say Happy Anniversary too - since no one celebrates love, married or not in Germany). I then say ok put yourself in my shoes, yada yada, apologize for making her cry & really go overboard apologizing period. She knew she was busted, but I, the adult, did the apologizing. To this end, I said "ok, our cultures are different, but I respect yours." I would've liked the same consideration for my, now "our" culture, but that wasn't happening. I said since I've made you SO uncomfortable in my home, then I must make myself just as uncomfortable. As you reveal your breast and body and this is not normal for me, but is for you...than I will make myself uncomfortable to further apologize to you. We were planning to play darts anyway, so I said that would be normal right? To do this nude? No big deal right? RIGHT from both - I don't actually BELIEVE this, nor that they would do it, so I said well I'm not going first - so they take their clothes off - my boyfriend begins first, she follows, then I. We're playing nude darts for a bit & I say, "hey so this is great fun & since it's so normal, we can do this when your parents come right?" "Or other EU co-workers, friends, etc" He then says, "it's NOT normal, but nudity not a bad thing - yeah I get it, unintended nudity no big deal, but to me THIS was a big deal on many levels. I feel, as a man, an American man, a partner, and further, as an Uncle, he should've in NO way allowed, nor engaged in this behavior "with a child" as she was referred to when she couldn't say "thank you" for anything, so if such a child, how do you allow or engage whatsoever in this behavior - drinking with your 43 uncle, 33 year old girlfriend, & 21 year old niece??? Since I'm SO crazy, I got a professional opinion and it was primarily what I'd suspected...a 21 year old female is sexually aggressive and competed for the Alpha Female role during her visit. Of course I was hurt during this visit, sure I cried a bit telling him how I felt, but did he really care? No. He said I accuse him of incest with the niece - I did say that I'd felt as if something had happened on a previous visit or potentially could happen - that is how it felt, but I was very clear that I felt this came more from her side. Nieces have crushes on Uncle's all the time - hell, I did - but when I was 6 & it wasn't even a blood relative - not to mention I didn't even know what sex was at 6. What else explains this behavior other than feeling like a 3rd wheel?? I do not feel in my heart of all hearts he is or could ever be THAT kind of pervert, but I can say (as the Dr. did), that he was a male basking in female attention, competition, etc and the chances of it ever happening again are pretty non-existent as she's gone & will find someone to take her sexual aggressions out on and that it's hard to bust up a good relationship so hang on to it if I could. I am really trying to forget this whole thing, but it ruined our relationship. Our bond, trust, and intimacy have all been violated. I don't trust him because I believe he lied, translated only what he wanted me to know & vice versa to her, and engaged in completely unacceptable behavior in any culture. He could've said, "hey, it's not necessary to go THAT far with the apology," but didn't & both continued playing nude when I'd reclothed myself - they started to recloth, but I said, "oh heavens no, don't let ME make YOU uncomfortable, if you're comfortable then please continue. Anyone have an opinion??? I'd love for anyone to tell me I'm CRAZY, but so far, no one has been able to. I can't get past it although I'm trying, but it's hard when his perception is that NONE of these things occurred (except the darts & that I insisted we do this -- really, I'm not that powerful to force anyone's clothes off), but apparently he thinks so. I also wrote an email to her parents explaining HOW we got to the point of intentional nudity, but due to poor electronic translation, they are confused over my communication and also feel there is no reason for an explanation because "nude darts" is ok with them it sure seems. I'd really love some advice...I never "chat" with people, but have found myself turning online for anonymous German & American male opions/advice since the man I knew, loved, and lived with for the past 2 years "checked out" ever since she came into our home. She's gone now & it really seems she took our relationship - my whole life - with her & I'm trying desperately to pick up the pieces of my heart & our relationship - but am wondering if it's even worth it at this point. Please help if you can, thanks in advance for your time.

Sorry, I have a bit of an attention deficit disorder so I only read about the first 6 sentences.

Just out of curiosity... does any part of this story include suppositories?

Hey curious22,
you are not crazy. The behaviour of your boyfriend is absolutely unacceptable - in any culture, but definitely in the America and in the Germany

The nudity thing is truly not that big in Germany. You may show up sunbathing topless with a girlfriend at a beach where you don't know anyone, but you would not do that even in front of your (male) family. The idea of darting nude is odd. Why the h*ll did you join though?

The niece's family does not respond to you though because they feel they are in a strange position. They cannot tell this lady what to do anymore, they certainly do not want to confront your boyfriend. If they don't say anything, they just are too embaressed to react, which is understandable.

After all, I'm not sure if your relationship was all honest and true in the end. I thing you have seen much more honesty in the last couple of weeks - sorry to say.
Your boyfriend always had the choice to act differently and to rather protect you instead of hurting you. He chose not to.

As hard as it is, move on...
Good Luck.

OMG

Maybe, just maybe. if there would have been a paragraph in there. ...

Jeebus kryste on a cracker! There's a Enter key on your keyboard. USE IT! Is it really so much to ask that you format your rantings and ravings so that they're at least somewhat legible? That was truly one of the most painful posts I've seen on this board in a long time. I started getting a headache after the fifth line.

woof.

Hi... I read a bit of your message. You should read the answers from my post. I had a similar situation with my ex's daugher as well.. and she was also 21. The advice was great. And NO you are NOT CRAZY! lol But I know sometimes it can feel that way.
Read over that thread and see if it helps.
I think it was called Help save my relationship or something like that...
Feel free to send me an email if you like too through this site... It might help to get advice from someone who was in a similar situation as yourself.
-Melissa

I'm impressed BD, I gave up after line 4.

Maybe this is a Vogon poetry slam?

To translate BadDoggie's post into nice English: it would be wonderful if you edited your post and used paragraphs; that would make reading it a lot easier.

I can understand how you feel... sounds like the professional diagnosis is right. Nude darts would be weird to me as well, but then I would never show my uncle if I got a nipple piercing either... I do think that there are families that are that laid back about being naked around each other, ... but eh, I don't know, do they play nude darts a lot when the niece comes to visit or was that the first time? Honestly the nudeness sounds more like a means to and end in this case.
That your boyfriend does not seem to understand your position at all is sad. I don't think anyone would have to try that hard to understand your position and as your boyfriend of a couple of years he should make that effort. Really doesn't speak for him that he doesn't.
If you cannot trust him anymore, to me that would be reason enough to end a relationship. Trust and love are the foundation of a relationship, and if one is gone, the relationship is usually doomed. Not to say you should break up with him, as that's a decision only you can make, but to me it would be very important. I can also not stand when someone just dismisses my feelings as crazy or something, it's very disrespectful to do that.

I'm sure it does, though I didn't read past line 6 myself.
Could it be Ashley doing it again...

There do seem to be some parallels.

Executive summary Help save my relationship with a German man.

Yeah I thought that too... the whole nude thing, but maybe nudity here and how some people are very liberal about it is just something "Ausländer" frequently have issues with. (That and ignorant disrespectful partners.)

can we have a poll?

LOL!

I scanned it and got 'American man, sex, 6 years old'

Sounds normal. You aren't crazy

I saw references to "nude darts" and couldn't help myself. I've read everything at digg and b3ta already.

That was painful as fuck.

curious22: you need to jump into the shower now and wash that sand out of your vagina. All of it. I expect you'll need at least two hours to get that much sand out of there. You're not in the US anymore; you don't get to be "offended" at every perceived slight. It's a fucking human body. Get over it.

"I don't trust him because I believe he lied, translated only what he wanted me to know & vice versa to her, and engaged in completely unacceptable behavior in any culture."

Incredible what people believe, especially in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary. What I was able to make out wasn't at all socially unacceptable here. The fact that you might not strip down in front of cow-orkers or the parents doesn't change that.

You're throwing away your relationship because you don't understand the social differences or can't accept them. You won't last long here if you can't pull your head out of your ass and realise that being an oversensitive prude isn't the way to get ahead in Germany. It will make you a laughing stock though. Your call.

woof.

Hey Curious:
Admittedly, it was hard to read, and I tried to keep up, but gave up and instead gave it a scan. Im wondering... did he and his neice ever outright do or say anything horrible to you? Or were you perhaps reading between the lines.. assuming the worst... perhaps being a bit paranoid?

Was he mean to you or disrespectful, and if so, in what way?

Please post a photo of the niece.

Or her nipple piercing for that matter.

Was there a mention of a nipple piercing in the paragraph from the dark side?

Yes. I believe it was in line 432.

Jesus, reading that far would have been a brain piercing.

Just in by PM...

Looks like your bog standard, common or garden nipple piercing, what was all the fuss about?

Niece was blowing the husband (her uncle) at the time that wifey noticed it. Or something. In fairness I only read the first inch or so before deciding that she was either nuts or fake or both.

So wife was standing on her left?

Shocking that.

So let me get this straight. You and the niece had a lesbian romp with her four 21 year old friends and your boyfriend walked in. Though it turns out it's not really his niece, so he just got down with the lot of you?

Well at least that's how the story went after I went blind trying to read that. You mentioned you have been round the language enough to understand what was being said. Perhaps going back to being around English might sort out your phobia of paragraphs.

God I read it all...and it was hard work but luckily or unluckily I've nothing else better to do but learn code.

@Curious22,

I'm a dude so I don't do the girly thing i.e. trying to work out what is in someone else's head.

In my book it is very simple, you accept what people say unless you believe them to be liars or you have direct proof to the contrary. If you think they are liars or their company makes you feel uncomforable then you find new people to hang out. Or you can just accept their bad sides because they are friends/family or their good side make up for the bad. But what you don't do is spend wasted engery trying to decode or work out what is in their head...a futile exercise.

Prior to the nude darts stuff your boyfriend/husband say that you that was nothing ontowards. So you either believe him or you don't. If you don't believe him then what are you doing in the relationship in the first place. If this niece did behave inappropriately (for you) again prior to the Darts why give loads of flak to your man.

Your post, the nude darts and your attempt to explain it to both your man and the nieces family says you have NOT responded very well to this and may be creating more negative energy and problems than the whole event is justified.

Stanford - laughing because he should be learning some code but is being an agony uncle on Friday one in the morning...back to the code...

After the funny comments above I feel ashamed that I read the whole lot...

Stanford even more ashamed that he replied with advice...!!!
But laughing out aloud...

Nude darts? Nude darts? The mammy wil kill me stone dead for reading that.

Consider my curiosity piqued. Does the niece store her spare darts in her nipple piercing?

Learn German quickly and whilst nudity is seen (especially in the former East) in a far more relaxed manner what you described isn't the norm, let nobody tell you otherwise.

The amazing thing is this women - insisted that they play nude darts because she was not convinced that it was okay that the niece showed a tit, nipple and piercing. Great logic...let her show her beaver as well...

Can you imagine that - then she was pissed when they continued to play in the nude after she put her clothes back on...

See I told you I read it all...

Edited: My wife is from the old DDR and she told me FKK was far more prevalent and accepted than in the West... I even decided when visitng her home town and the beaches to partake a little myself... You know when in Rome do as the Romans do. The did feel a little uncomfortable walking past a family with children - okay they were in the nude as well but the Brittish prudish side came to the for... There was NO nude darts though...

Yes, and apparently the wife stores sand in her vagina. (I didn't actually read that part, but BD picked up on it)

Fwew! I read the entire thing.
Hmmm... the first time I scanned it I thought perhaps you were in a really bad relationship over all.
But on the second "full read" it just seems like a shame that something so silly like nude darts could ruin a relationship you said was pretty much perfect. And love is trust really.. so, how can you accuse the man you love of such a thing? (incest) I mean, clearly you do not believe that now as you said.. but for him, it must have been like a hard slap to the face. And the fact is she was only a temporary visitor in your home. I get crazy relatives all the time visiting me with their own quirks and such.. but you never get angy and such. They are guests in your home...so you bend a little.. bite your tongue (no play on words from the peanut gallery please .. and know that she will be leaving soon. I had a different situation actually as my exbf had a 21 year old daughter who lived with him full time who made me feel like the most unwelcomed guest.. so I never wanted to visit. And she manipulated him to keep him from me on and on... PLUS, he was a bit of a jerk as well. (many of the members here like to use much stronger words when describing him.. but for me, the word jerk works just fine!)
Anyway.. girl, you have to be more careful with your words. To be the "bigger" person or the "adult" means holding your tongue.. cool off.. assessing a situation. Once words are out there.. you cant take them back. And you are right.. words can ruin everything. I think you have some major making up to do. (unless he is a jerk and you are just not telling us) But he sounds alright from your description.

Stanford,
I completely agree with your "when in rome" statement. When in Holland I would go to the saunas all the time... everyone naked of course and I never felt uncomfortable naked either. But in America, show up in a unisex sauna and the next thing you know, you're in prison for "indecent exposure" lol

You're actually taking it at face value? Wow! Ok. I guess people took your tale at face value so it's probably only fair that you return the favour.

But you have to understand that this is our [the women's] favorite past-time. Okay, not really but it is incredibly hard not to over-analyze.


Oh well, I did too. No need to be ashamed.

@Mariposa,

Exactly and it is just a stupid waste of time. Does he love me or NOT? Cosmo and other girly magazine make millions writing articles on this pap whilst FHM is writing for the men how to get your girlfriend/wife to do a threesome with another girl!!!

My wife doesn't engage in guessing games that is one reason why I love her. She tells me what she needs in terms of presents i.e. Christmas, Birthdays, Aniversaries and doesn't force the torture, yes it is torture of trying to get that "Romantic" gift. Which 9/10 you get wrong anyhow...

Also She doesn't get jealous when we are out and my type of girl wanders past or dances by...Is it not that the worse you get it in the neck, Guys because some cute girls dances up to you on the dance floor. You do or have done nothing but afterwards you are in the dog house...luckily Mrs Stanford isn't like that.

Stanford in love with Mrs Stanford because she is NOT too girly...

Oh I think most of us know that too! We just haven't found the button yet to turn it off. Heck I even get on my own nerves when I start over-analyzing!
Women just read too much into things on the odd chance that there might actually be something more into a situation, that's why we cannot quit it either, because this time might just be the time that there is something more to a situation.

I don't like guessing games either, though. And if a man put a lot of thought into a present and the woman doesn't appreciate it, she deserves a kick (even if it is not the perfect gift, it is the thought that counts!). If the man didn't put a lot of thought into it, he does. I do like surprise gifts better than something I asked for and while they may not always be perfectly useful gifts, I appreciate them anyway.

Watch it Mariposa you are sounding like a bit of a catch...not only cute and intelligent but not too girly as well!!!

Overly analzying is a waste of time - I can't speak for all men but most of my actions just happen on a primitive level...no real thought...so analyzing me is like trying to analyze a prehistoric man!!!

As for presents, I do surprise present out side the gift seasons. Then they are appreciated and there is NOT too much stress...but for the standard dates...just tell me...

Stanford the Neandrathal Man.

sounds like a plot for an Emmanuelle film:

Couple invite young nubile creature into their home
on arrival said young nubile creature gets her tits out to show her piercing
next morning said young nubile creature comes down for breakfast naked
Next day, couple and said young nubile creature play naked darts
next...

well...instead of carrying on in the usual French soft porn flick (please refer to Jeramy's [or should that be Jérémé?] thread for more details ) this rerails into a psycho rant and rather destroys the atmosphere.

Shame on you! Where was the happy end? Where was the sauna scene? or the threesome in the marital bed?

uggggggggggg i feel so cheated to have been made to read the entire effing thread for this lousy ending!

I agree with the above , was the niece shaved or trimmed?

My thoughts exactly. Fool me once shame on you, fool me again shame on me.

Oh painful, I read 3/4 of it because of the nude darts. What an anticlimax. Did you take pictures of the nude darts anyway?

And get a paragraph

Awww thanks.

I will never think of darts in terms of sweaty fat men with pints of ale ever again.

Was the husband playing darts with a huge boner? Putting myself in his shoes (was he still wearing shoes? Because you don't want those stray darts hitting you on the bare foot. Safety regulations here people) I imagine it must have been fairly difficult not to garner at least a half-woodie at the sight of my girlfriend and a nubile 21 year old playing darts with me. Twister would be better, sure, but we'll take what we can get here.

The other possibility is that "darts" is a euphemism, and in fact the "dart" was his turgid member, which he utilised to score bulleyes and triple 20's with the young hottie.

When will people stop equating nudity with sex?

I come from one of those scary free thinking families that occasionally see each other naked. It's just natural, there's absolutely nothing sexual about it, those who think there is are the ones with the issues. I mean this is your own family ffs, how can you think about them in a sexual way? I've seen my father naked more times than I can count and to this day I have no clue whether he's circumsized or not, I've just never payed attention to that part of his anatomy even though I've seen it several times.

This post is not directed at the poster above as he's clearly taking the piss but at the others who think there's something sick about being comfortable in your own skin.

Curious22 - It seems that there is some feelings going on there between the two of them. If your husband had one iota of consideration for your feelings he would not have gone along with this girls power trip. Yes she can try but then if he cared about you he would not reciprocate. It takes one person to make a pass but two to tango. They tangoed over your emotions. This is called mental cruelty and this has no place in a loving caring relationship and is also grounds for divorce. Unless you are a masochist get legal advice and get him out of your life now. Life is too short. The guy is a two bit wanker. You are not crazy.

SwedishChef, I think there are far more sensitive body parts on a man that a dart could hit than a foot...

Isn't it a bit different if it's your own father or mother or even brother or sister.

What sort of family gatherings do you have then?

I've never heard of family gatherings where people start ripping off their kit to show their uncles their breast or intimate piercings, and then suggest naked darts, what would you say if your nephew pulled down his trousers to show you the stud he's just had put in his dick or tattoo on his arse and your boyfriend or husband was there and he suggested a game of nude tennis?

Do behave, I think you just like to argue the toss (pardon the pun) this behaviour is in no way normal you just don't do it.

I have spent plenty of time in the company of German families BTW

I have to admire a man who can play nude darts with 2 women and not sport some wood...a master of self control!

Now that I think about it, in his place I'd have forced one just to piss her off even more...advice...he should get out as quickly as possible.