Anti-G8 violence - why?

Hello everyone!

I'm sitting at home, it's nice and cosy and literally just next door there are violent protests against G8 summit. It's real, it's ugly and I'm wondering what kind of belief people have that it actually takes them out on the street and throw a bottle at the policeman who is a human (probaly has wife, kids and mortgage to worry about) and has nothing to do with globalisation. I think there are very few things in this world that can make me throw a bottle at someone.

Don't people have anything else to do? I understand that if something terrbly wrong happening in our society me as a citizen/person who lives in this society should do something, go to demonstration, protest... But like that??

It just feels like we all live in one country/in one city/town but so worlds apart, so detached, I can't even understand these people. But at the same time we co-exist and we live our totally different lifes. Or is it just me who feels so detached?

Leyli

It's a bunch of do-gooder idealistic idiots with no understanding of economics or politics looking for something to protest, joined by a bunch of hooligans looking for nothing more than a fight.

woof.

...And not to forget: endorsed by the media through the attention they pour on these hooligans and supported by politicians that succumb to violence by giving in to demands posted by people who grow more and more sure of one thing - violence is a good way to get what you want.

@DB ... I agree and if my observations of the marches around Europe are correct - 1/3 idealistic idiots & 2/3 misdirected hooligans with nothing better to do!

@Genie

I think it's pretty clear that the protestors DONT get what they want...ever...In my eyes the violence is a product of frustration...AND of course the governments of the 8 most powerful countries in the world who most DEfinitely have set the example that violence is the way to get what you want.

Other than that, I don't want to get into this or I'll have to start making molotovs in the cellar...

What a total and utter load of bollocks. They are there to cause trouble and nothing else. They could not give a shit what the message was the peaceful protesters were trying to get across as they were just out to have a fight, burn a few things and then blame the politicians for making them what they are. Unfortunately it appears that there are some people out there who actually believe that bullshit.

The question arising from what you say Crawlie, is why don't they use other "opportunities" to kick up some action and have their fun. Why is it that these globalization-related events attract so many of these people, who as you say are just looking for an opportunity to cause trouble?

My answer to that is that they feel legitimized. People "undestand" their "frustration" and "cause" and therefore they get this positive "fightes for a cause" aura nurtured by the media and anti-globalization politics (a branch of politics which I find erroneous, but still legitimate).

"nurtured by the media"

Not really...at least not by 99% of it...

At the end of the day it is a product of the polarisation of society due to irresponsible govt and a system that isnt truly respresentative...

I'm not arguing about that Pirulero (another thread, another discussion), I'm just saying - even if that's true, throwing bottles at policemen is not even vaguely a legitimate way to respond to it. There are many perceived injustices in society, why is it that only this type gets so much violence done in its name?

*** the following text does NOT describe my personal beliefs, rather it describes the perspective of others invovled in the anti-globalization what-ever-you-want-to-call-it ***

a few years ago, I attended a lecture by a fairly prominent anti-globalization reporter / activist, simply to hear what their perspective was (and partly because the girl I was seeing at the time wanted to go... anyway). This was a couple months after the 1999 Seattle WTO protests / demonstrations turned violent, and the activist community started to debate among itself the "value" / "usefullness" (for lack of a better word) of violence.

The basic problem that they (the anti-globalization activists) faced at that time was that (remember, this is back in 1999):
- the topic of globalization was new, gaining momentum, and not fully understood by most people.
- the media coverage of the topic was dominated by pro-globalization elements (MNCs, Government officials, etc.).
- the "dissenting" opinions were nearly completly shut out of the media - or characterized as "fringe".
- many people in the general population didn't even know that there were people opposed to globalization (or to say it more accurately: people organized to oppose the form that globalization was taking (essentially laissez-faire) and the way in which it was being created (imposed by government bodies)).

or at least that is how the activist community saw the situation. (again, not my opinions here, just telling you what I heard).

now the interesting thing that they saw was: for years they had been (for the vast majority of cases) peacefully trying to get their ideas out - to be heard - with little success... then suddenly, a bit of violence in the city hosting the WTO meeting brought a massive amount of media coverage - suddenly they had the attention of the media and had a *chance* to get their message out. Of course the problem is that the media will focus on the violence, not on the message. As a case in point, the media coverage of the Seattle WTO was happy to show the handfull of people smashing the windows of a Starbucks, but didn't show the larger number of people who stayed and cleaned up the mess. (yes, the protesters cleaned-up the broken glass and helped the staff of the Starbucks to secure the shop.) Nor did the media interview any of the organizers to discuss their perspectives on globalization...

so they had a dilemma: be peacefull and be ignored; or be a little violent and get attention and a chance to get your message out, while risking that your message will be distorted.

obviously, they have yet to find a solution to this... and, even worse, it appears based on the posts above that some people now view any violence at such an event as dismissible.

again, not my opinions. I do not think violence is the solution in this case.

I agree. With the shit that just happened in Rostock you can see this. All the young people with black hoodies and their faces covered and ski masks. Why else would you cover your face if you weren't planning on trouble. Also the police stopped a train coming from Hamburg to Rostock that was destroyed. Al they want to do is cause trouble anywhere they can. They don't care about the cause they just want to fight the police and they did. 433 police injured and 520 protestors injured I think about 100 arrested. Most of them were 18-20 years old (don't worry the 18 year olds were crying muahaha bastards) they don't work and have nothing so they come out and cause trouble. To place the blame anywhere is pointless...Oh they also destroyed a bank too...

I just hope there is no more but some of them were camping out on top of an old abadoned school when I passed by on the tram yesterday...so not sure.

I agree too. The shame is that the media will portray the violence as an anti G8 thing thus rendering the peaceful efforts of the vast majority of the protesters as a waste of time in terms of garnering any further understanding of their cause or indeed support for it. Bìt like the Poll Tax riots really, isn't it?

My wife suggested that the conference should have been held on Iceland... How about on Vatnajökull...

You cover your face because you fear repression, and the fear is real. people loose their jobs for demonstrating, they get harrassed by cops on every simple passport check, they get phonetapped and videosurvailled and all kinds of other repressive acts. Additionally, once your data is on the list of leftist/democratic activists, who can tell what future administrations are going to do with you?

The democratic right to legally demonstrate without repression is simply on paper. If you go to one of these demos, repression is definetly a valid fear. hence the masks, even from otherwise peaceful protesters. BTW, the kops are masked and without names or numbers, too. Go figure why, and how that fits into a democracy.

There are only three reasons for a citizen of a democratic state to fight the police, since the police is supposed to be the executive arm of the government of the people. He can be an anti-democrat.He can be an idiot that would fight anybody. Or he can be convinced that our democracy doesnt work anymore because the politicians that ought to represent all the people now represent the few people that control the media corporations. That money counts more then votes, because money can buy millions of votes.

So you can believe that the violent protesters are stupid, wannabee dicatators or simply frustrated. Hint: If you had ever been to one of those demonstration-turned-riots you would know. Of course you are not going to believe me when i tell you that most of the time its the cops that intentionally fuel the fire. You also wouldnt believe that they deliberatly leave cars to be burned in otherwise cleared places so they get the shots for the evening news. And you certainly wouldnt believe that if one day the black block runs out of recruits, someone who's paid with our taxes would make sure that enough masked stonethrowers magically appear at any unwanted demonstration.

I can only recommend for everyone to go and peacefully demonstrate on a legal demonstration that happens to really piss off those in power. And still get beaten up Nazi SA style by the black block of masked, anonymised helmed and armed riot cops. Could serve well to readjust some of your skewed perspectives.
The fourth Reich is coming, and you are the guys that are going to claim they didn't knew. You don't know only because you don't want to know people.
If we dont fight now, our Sons and daughters are going to be nothing but corporate Slaves. Chemically kept happy slaves maybe, but still slaves. Sadly, many of us already have the mentality and informational horizon of the slave flock, as demonstrated by many answers to this very thread.

for once you are right
is it their job to remove legally parked cars?
shocking grammar

Well, good luck not exercising what is supposed to be your right. Dont complain if you wake up in a totalitarian state one morning. Chances are you wouldnt realise anyway.
BTW, since you never experienced it yourself, why do you insist on having an opinion about it?

Well, if the area was shut down and parking prohibited for a good number of days and supposed to be cleared of cars, then 1) the parking isnt legal and 2) its a bit strange that they should forget one car, isnt it?

English isnt my first language. You do know what they say about people that adress the grammar/spelling instead of the message they disagree with, right?

that reminds me: a couple years ago there was going to be some sort of march in downtown Chicago. The organizers had a hell of a time getting the permits, but the courts finally backed-up their right to have a little march. and yea, it was going to be little, maybe a couple thousand people, so no big deal, right? anyway, the police decided to have a "trial run" to, you know, brush-up on their crowd controll skills. So what's they does is: on a weekend day, a couple hundred cops meet downtown in Daley Plaza (you know, where they got that Picaso) so, the veteran cops play-act the riot police, and da rookies play-act as "protesters". you can only imagine the mayhem that ensued!! fights were breakin out all over the place - old cops against young cops - and when it's cops fighting cops, who do you call to stop it??? anyway, if I remember correctly, some 20 or so of the city's finest had to be taken to the hospital for treatment... but i could be wrong on that number. oh, and the best part is, when the real march did happen, quess how many arrests were made? something like 2. but again, i could have the numbers wrong, still the point is that there was much more violence when it was just the cops.

but also, i don't want to single out the Chicago boys in blue. the vast majority of them are doing their jobs, and doing it well. there are a couple bad apples, though... oh and don't forget about that nice job the L.A. cops did during that peacefull immigration march a few weeks back. They got that on video, and the crowd didn't do a thing to provoke the attack from the L.A. riot boys.

They do if for the same reasons as football fans. It a buzz and once tasted you either continue and get deeper into it or shit your pants and never do it again. Its got bugger all to do with what they are protesting at, apart from the fact that it is an occasion to meet up with other like minded individuals and give it to the OB.

You are referring for the motivation to join the cops' riot squads, don't you? because otherwise i'd have to assume that talk based on hearsay, or rather based on skewed mass media propaganda. Just go to rostock and demonstrate against the G8 if you want a dose of reality.

the 23rd and 24th Einsatzhundertschaft in Berlin are especially formed as riot squads and they get sent to everywhere wherever theres a demonstration to beat up. They seem to draw their professional pride from being the meanest and most brutal riotcops in Germany, and consequently they are always put int the front lines. They are well known for example in the wendland, where the protests against the castor transports gave them the opportunity to beat up thousands of citizens over the years. And especially in the Wendland it is really peaceful citizens and farmers that get to know the baton.

@Chicago Yes many cops are doing decent jobs and honestly believe in the constitution. But there are still enough that dont, and they are backed up and held in high regards by the higher ups. A couple of years ago the TAZ published a transcript of the police radio on 1st of may in Berlin when the order was given: "Zugriff!" - "Aber die machen doch garnichts!"-"Egal, Zugriff!". Simply by actually exercising my constitutional right to demonstrate i was able to see quite some amounts of completely unwarranted police brutality. I got tons of stories certain people just wouldnt want to believe. Its not on the news, right?

I do not find it surprising that people that prefer to generally complain about the unfairness of the world while never even trying to really organise with others to express that discontempt in the way the constitution has planned for the souvereign, the people, to articulate themselves in urgent matters. The right do demonstrate, one of the basic foundations of the classic democratic theory, remains of course valid as long as you would demonstrate for a nicer income tax or a payrise, but if you happen to disagree with certain other, more basic things you can easily go through orwellian nightmares. And since someone brought down the WTC, Terror is an even bigger seller so they are selling lots of it all over the West to justify even more surveillance and repression. - actually going so far as to introduce thought crime (e.g. the new British Anti-Terror laws). Orwell was a genius btw. Just as William Gibson.

Just a couple of weeks ago, on 1st of may one of my friends was cs-gassed just because the cop didnt like his looks. Not a pleasant experience, especially given the fact that he actually pays taxes that are used to fund both the cop and the gas.
Ironic Sidenote: In a War the use of the Gas would be a War Crime, but the Geneve Conventions do not apply to interior conflicts ... Seems its only illegal if a foreign taxpayer funds the bill.

Update: the Police has reportedly not been able to identify or arrest a single member of the 'black block'. So what did they injure atleast 500 people for again? Who did they film the whole day?

Yes you would be ASSUMING that its based on hearsay like you seem to assume a lot of things. The only person who I can see who is basing things on media propaganda is yourself. Fool, go to Rostock? A fooking walk in the park, kids at a picnic compared to the Battle of Trafalgar in 1990.

You say one of your friends was CS gassed? Whoop de fooking doo, you must be an expert on these issues then. I suggest if you want a dose of reality, then you get on the front-line. You never know, you may just enjoy it

CS gas… FFS <insert shakes head smiley>

Interesting considering I know the person who was taking their fingerprints...

They only arrested 100 or so people, and I think most they let go.

I saw several Japanese walking through Warnemünde yesterday and one hippy playing their guitar. Also now I can hear helicopters flying above...

Anyone else like to see Pat Bateman on the front line with the police, and having to try to deal with these "protesting" scum?

My thoughts exactly - thanks, Hutcho.

I'd rather have some protester burn his car. But that's just me. The point crosses over without him getting his bones broken by crowbars or his body burned by molotov cocktails.

Ha...would be interesting...

Yesterday there was a friendly protest in Warnemünde. Plenty of police though we had to take the train since the buses were off schedule. This protest was close to my flat, I could see part of the protest from where I live. Walking through the end of it was interesting, there was trash everywhere...I mean everywhere all on the streets and up the stairs to the train platform, all on the train platform. I do like the prescense of the police now, at least makes you feel a little more safer.

Why do they always organise the G8 meeting just a few weeks after the football season?

Wouldn't it be better to have it during the season? The hooligans would not risk to get injured in the protests as they are committed to "performing" in their arenas on Sunday.

If this wasn't such a serious issue i would've laughed...

1) just because the most recent event happened to a friend doesnt mean i never tasted Gas or Baton myself, right? Back to assumptions?


Sounds pretty much like what i said, doesnt it?

2) Thank god that you can wish me to be mutilated by the black block, if you would have to wish me to be mutilated by the cops you would sound so oldschool burgeois-turned-fascist, wouldnt you?Do you even realise that i not only condemned the violence there generally but also put the majority of the blame on the cops? Anyway, i prolly wouldnt understand how you justify your reasoning to yourself - but i do understand why you feel the way you do, why you like to entertain violent fantasies. And i pity you, and our society for having so many of you.

3) Hooligans and Black Block are entirely separate entities. There are virtually no personal intersections - Not even the police or Verfassungschutz claim that to be the case. Hools are apoliticic or right leaning, the black block is the radical left and sees itself as the militant arm of the protests. And often enough special police has been dressing up as black block to justify whatever they wanted to do - That is almost a tradition on G8 demonstrations, starting with Genua. Btw, the BfVS puts out a free reader each year, the Verfassungsschutzbericht. Its free! And reading it can save you from one or two rather embarrassing allegations in order to fix your worldview. Theres a lot of hard work going into that reader - and interestingly enough, it is generally closer to reality then the picture painted by the media.

4) Any demonstration will always leave a trail of litter, whats so dangerous about that? Shouldnt you still prefer the presence of the citys cleaners to that of the cops? Especially since the former seldom provoke riots ... And how exactly does a street full of litter relate to the violence the G8 countries spread all over the world? How does it relate to the prospect of a new, perfectionised fascist big brother society? Do you advocate not to express your discontempt with the latter in order to reduce litter on the streets?

Sad to say, but it seems to me that many people do not deserve to live in democracies because they have no idea what that even means. Heil, brave new world?

Well i will certainly not let a bunch of apathic and subconsciously violent lemmings stop me from the speaking up against the descent of my country into barbary. I owe it to my kids. And yours.

Oh and 5) I don't have the power to park my car in a cleared out area that has been locked down and no-parking for days. And my car wouldn't be overlooked by the cops that clear the place of cars.

Oh and one more update: only one of the cops was injured heavily, brain concussion. On the other side there are many peaceful protesters with open bone fractions. And not a single stonethrower arrested.

I watched a documentary (in Germany) some time ago about "Rostock Brand (?)" (burning) where there were riots everywhere, attacks on foreigners etc. Ever since then, the image stayed and now with the G8 protest, Rostock-ers have themselves to blame for poor reputation. What are they protesting about? If they want to care for the Global Warming, they should stop driving at high speed on the autobahn and stop polluting the air with their cigarettes. Bet if I ask them to quit smoking for Global Warming sake, they will protest. Either way, protest.