More time driving to work than actually working

Recently I have started a job here in Munich which is pretty much the same as I did before for about a year and a half. Same company, same job title and pretty much the same pay. For some reason I think that although it's the same kind of thing that I'm doing, I feel not enough rewarded for what I am doing here and I've been given a slightly different impression about what the job entails.

The situation... 90% of the time I do customer visits. This means that it's not an exception that I have to leave very early in the morning, drive for a couple of hours, be at the customer the whole day and drive back again for a couple of hours. In other words, very long days with sometimes more hours of driving than somebody would spend on an average day in the office.

When I have to be somewhere for more than one day, I can stay at a hotel... but... the company does not pay any overtime, they don't pay anything for meals while travelling and they don't pay for extra costs for example for an internet connection in the hotel room. Since this happens on average about two nights a week, it cuts on my private life as well and I am not able to make any plans during the week in the evenings since these trips can be announced a day or two beforehand.

Therefore I am wondering (I am sure there are people out here who are having jobs like this)...is it normal here in Germany that you have to pay for all your expenses during travelling, and that you can be sent to Hamburg on Monday, Stuttgart on Tuesday, Berlin on Wednesday, Köln on Thursday, and when you're lucky within Munich on Friday...?

Sparty,

You may want to drop the title, or change it a little bit as it sounds overly dramatic "A normal German Thing" when most Germans will no doubt work in one office in the same district or City; commuting to and from work in an Metro/S-Bahn/Tram or Bus. It sounds like you are in some form of client facing job and so fit under a different category regardless of Germany or not.

I think, you can tell me if I am wrong, that you want to know where do you stand in terms of your terms and conditions when being away from home. I may be working back in Germany soonish and will be away from home and as far as my I am aware German Law is pretty strict on you receiving extra benefits either from tax deductable stuff or from your Employer. I'd expect someone with better knowledge to clarify exactly what they are. Once you know them - you could then try and negotiate a better package from your Firm. When I last worked in Germany there was even rules about not working late and then coming in at 9 O'Clock (had to be a 12hr gap or something!) not sure if that was Union negotiated benefit or a legal requirement...

Anyhow, Let us see what the great TTers come up with as an answer. (I'm now interested to know the answer to as well...)

From my understanding it is better if your company does not pay for your business expenses, because then you can declare these on your tax returns. If your compnay pays you a pauschale then you would have no taw return recourse. My job counts travel time as work time.

You drive to Hamburg or Köln??? Ouch

No its not normal, meals, hotel should be paid, and travelling tome partly or fully compensated.

@MaxAxeMurderer,

Is this a legal requirement or to be just expected for these type of jobs? In the job I'm going for I'd be expect to pay all these bills up front and will get them back..but then again I'm a freelancers. It would be interesting to get a legal perspective as I think Sparty is full-time...

I used to do this same job in Holland, where most of the customers were within decent reach of about any place you could live. That's what makes a huge difference. And since I had enough of the driving there every day hardly being able to make evening plans, I was glad I had been told that over here the customer base was much concentrated around the Munich area... which turned out to be the opposite.


Yep.

Sparty,

My wife (she is German) said something about some rules regarding being away from home - I'll ask her again and get back to you.

Unless you have an official office, the minute you leave from home to travel somewhere the arbeit clock begins and all related travel costs should be paid for in full. I also believe there is a rule about hours away from home which constitute a must stay in a hotel. I believe there was a thread on this aspect already.

There are two aspects to this. Firstly. presumably when you took the job you knew it would be customer facing, and that customers were throughout Germany so the job would include a substantial amount of time travelling on customer visits, which would almost certainly impinge on your private life, however the visits were handled.

The second aspect is whether it's fair to expect you to travel a long distance, work then travel back again. Fair treatment by your employer is expected, but what constitutes fair? I would suggest that to expect you to regularly work more than 10% of your paid working week without additional compensation is unfair. By "work" I would include driving as well as real work. A truck driver is restricted by law to no more than 9 hours at the wheel a day including 2 x 30 minute rests. To drive more than that is actually illegal (there are minor exceptions). Rest periods may not include any period of work, so to drive 4 hours, work for 4 hours on-site and drive 4 hours home would be technically illegal if you were a truck driver. Some people (me included) might also think that to work those few extra hours might attract long term peer appreciation and improve promotion prospects, but that's up to you, no-one should force or expect you to do it and if you are working and driving long hours it might actually be dangerous. It depends on the job, you, your employer and your future prospects or expectations.

If you are being expected to drive to Hamburg, meet and drive home again, even if it's an overnight trip, I'd suggest that was both time and cost inefficient. Much better from all sides to fly there and back, maybe even the same day. Let someone else take the strain of the travel management.

You should expect to be reimbursed for all out-of-pocket expenses incurred as a result of your business travel, but this may be regulated by your employment contract. Most companies pay (at least) €24 per day subsistence allowance, the maximum permitted under German tax law, but reduced for days less than 24 hours spent away from home and also reduced if an overnight hotel stay includes breakfast as part of the deal. Some companies pay reasonable amounts against receipts, but that gets more tax-complicated for both employee and employer. The intent is to cover costs over and above what it would have cost you privately to stay at home and not to pay for a swanky night out on the beer and steak in a restaurant. You should not be out of pocket as a result of your travel required by your work, but neither should you profit as a result. If you need to use internet as part of your job (to submit reports or maintain contact with office or customer) then I would expect your employer to reimburse reasonable costs in doing so, or provide a GPRS card for your laptop to do this ( afar cheaper solution for regular travellers). If your need for internet is to chat with your friends or write in TT, then this becomes a luxury for which I don't think you can expect repayment, but maybe request it as a goodwill gesture.

If you feel you are being abused, then check with your Betriebsrat for guidelines (if your company is big enough to have one) or bring up your concerns at an appraisal. It might be that your superiors don't actually realise how much you are doing, or are underestimating your task

True, I knew I would be travelling, but the reason I was happy with this job change (apart from being able to move to Munich) was that my customer base would have been focused on the Munich area. My collegues are well spread around the country, but they are not sent out based on the location, but on their qualifications. That means it could easily happen that I would have to visit a customer in Hamburg while a colleague from the Hamburg area visits a customer in Munich...


They leave it up to a choice with a preference. If I'd have an appointment in the morning somewhere far away, I can have the hotel booked, but they rather not do that because technically it is reachable within the day.

I get a pauschal thing if I am gone longer than 24 hours... I can check at work what the paper says it is called. They should give you a pauschal to cover food if you are spending the night. It does sound like a pain for your social life though.

My dad travels for work every week (to Trier from Munich). He travels during working hours, though he does overtime a lot, he will get back home at 10pm and also do extra work at home on Sundays.
His hotel and traveling expenses are paid for by his employer as well as he gets a daily rate for each day he is away from home for meals. I don't remember what that rate is though.

So my wife has come back with some help. You can put this in google.de

pauschbetrag geschafts riesen

And you will find many sites. One is here benefits

Abwesenheitsdauer Pauschbetrag ab 1.1.2002

bis zu 8 Std. 0,00 €
mehr als 8 Std. 6,00 €
mehr als 14 Std. 12,00 €
mehr als 24 Std. 24,00 €

Fahrzeug Kilometersatz ab 1.1.2002

Kraftwagen 0,30 €
Motorrad und Motorroller 0,13 €
Moped/Mofa 0,08 €
Fahrrad 0,05 €

You can get the 24 Euros or less also by applying to the finanzamt at the year end if you don' receive it from your firm but the kilometer allowances has to be claimed back from your firm directly. My wife says you should write them the bills for your trips and if they don't pay it you should resigned as they sound like a shite firm!!! Remember the kilometer allowance is like your pay for sitting in your car...damn car I would say after 5 hrs...

Oh she also said if they expect you to drive to Hamburg and back in a day - you should also resign...so best of luck.

@stanford,

it's a little misleading to say that you are "entitled" to these amounts. Rather, those amounts are the maximum accepted by the tax authorities (as tax-deductible for the employer). It is true that nearly all companies (well, at least the bigger ones) actually pay these amounts (some pay more, and also pay the tax associated with this overpayment), but technically, the employee is not "entitled" to anything. It's true though that anyone who doesn't get these allowances should probably be thinking hard if he wants to continue working for his employer...

Okay, I've changed the line title to benefits (for want of a better title) but according to my wife even the 24 Euro can be claim back from the Finanzamt so it sounds like an entitlement to me - if the Tax authorities are willing to sub you the stuff back...(reduce your tax accordingly).

Not too sure what you'd call the kilometer stuff (it says in the link I provided it's for private cars and company cars)...

Anyhow..I stand corrected...

However if you travel to Austria for your work be aware that the pauschale is more than that listed.

You are right that the 24 € can be deducted from your taxable income if the employer doesn't grant it to you. Though in that case, of course you "only" get a tax deduction, the Finanzamt does not reimburse the full amount (i.e. if your marginal tax rate is in the top bracket, your income tax is reduced by 11 €, otherwise even less).

Thanks for the clarification. Sorry if I didn't make that clear - I appreciate that you wouldn't get the 24 Euros back and only the tax benefits. I appreciate Tax authorities are not in the habit subbing our lives not yet anyhow...

what kind of contract does your employer have with the customer? do they charge the customer everytime you, the consultant, has to go out to their site? more than likely there is a daily rate included in that, which the employer would usually use to cover costs incrued by you travelling out there, etc.

i did this sort of thing prior to my current job. my company charged the client a daily rate for my work, plus expenses, which went towards my hotel (bill sent directly to my ex employer), train tickets (since train was cheaper, we were not allowed to drive unless there were special circumstances) and the maximum allowed amount for being away from home (Spesen). each week i did a Reisekostneabrechnung.

those last 3 years, i was commuting between Munich & Walldorf every week. Since I was expected to be at work on Monday morning, I got my ass out of bed at 5.30 a.m. to get the earliest train, which was at 6:45, to get me to work (hopefully) at 10.15 a.m. as stated above, i was not allowed to drive there. i opted to get the money reimbursed from my employer instead of claiming it on my taxes because it would have been too much out-of-pocket (each week at least 250€, not including hotel). at the job before that, whether or not i got a hotel depended on when i needed to be at the client. unfortunately the closest was a 4 hour drive away, so unless i had to be there at noon, i would drive in the evening before. when i had to go to kassel from stuttgart, i ALWAYS took the train! the time you spend in the car is wasted.

in any case, if your boss expects you to drive to hamburg, then insist on a flight or train ticket. that seems obvious to me. also, you need to step up, not just accept what they tell you. your boss might think you like to drive to hamburg, but think about the wear & tear on your car.

and that it cuts into your private life, sorry to say this sparty, but that is the life of a consultant. be glad you can come home during the week. many don't have that luxury.

I agree, but in my situation there are two things. I've had this lifestyle for a year and a half and was glad that I had the chance to have a similar job here where I have to travel, but more as an exception, especially long distances. In the end it looks like it's even worse than it was before!

The second thing is the short-notice they give on me for going somewhere. I can be in the office or somewhere else am arsch der welt and I get told that they just planned me for going somewhere else the next day. That would mean I have to cancel whatever I had planned in the evening and go wherever they want me to go the next day. This means that whenever I plan something, I ALWAYS have to take in consideration that I can't make it. In my opinion that's not really right!

Holland - Population: 16,491,461 Area: 41,528km²
Germany - Population: 82,689,210 Area: 357,022km²

Assuming you're are the best man for the job in the first place maybe it's not quite the same job here.

And of course, if you are "Mr. Fixer" as many on-site customer consultants are, then you are like the fire brigade, but without the benefits a blue lights and of horns. I bet they get really pissed off when an fire interrupts their revelry down at GMs...

Nonetheless, if you think you are being abused, then you should review the situation with your direct management for their opinion.

In my humble opinion - I've not heard of many consultant jobs where you either work weekends (that would mean the Client working weekends god forbid) nor one that you move so much between different client sites. Okay Investment banking likes weekends (in fact like 24hrs if they can get it) but other than that just haven't seen it.

Sparty what the hell are you doing mate...next day notice sounds like a real pain. At least in my experience in consulting Client site means being away during the week...In general, it sounds like it is time for rethink...assess your worth to the firm to negotiate a better package or think about moving on...

Edited: Just read the post above...It sounds like some form of Engineering to me...na ja best of luck mate.