How foreigners feel at work in Germany

Hello TT Members,

I have been waiting to post this message for a long time but now I cant resist from the views of the TT members who constitute people from across the globe. I have been working here in Munich for the past 6 months and I find it very difficult to understand my fellow German colleagues at work. We work together, have food together in the canteen and do speak sometime in the cafe room. But I dont understand we just exchange wishes from morning till evening like morgen then Gruß Gott during lunch time or schönes Wochenede on a Friday. Nobody is bothered to know about your country or how do I feel as a foreigner in germany or to know somebody sitting next to you better. I do not want to say that I except the same but it has been really pissing at times. Initially I thought it is the language constraint which is preventing this conversation to happen but it is not.

I have lived across several cities in Asia like Beijing, Taipei, Tokyo , Singapore... and never have I felt this at work. My colleagues at work were really warm and friendly in any aspect and I really left the city or country with a positive note. But here I dont feel the same hence want other my fellow TT members views.

I do not want to enter into any conclusion because probably it is only at my work space that it is so or probably as my fellow friend from my own country who has been living here for past 6 years told me `Munich is conservative and it is much better in Hamburg or Berlin´ ... But I dont know?

My 6 months stay has been good around munich but somehow at work space I was never never comfortable. Can I get some good posts about this.

Thanks for your time and good bye Germany

what sort of views are you looking for? If we can relate to your experience or not?

Depends on the people I guess. In some ways I find it nice sometimes that people just treat you as a normal person and not as something special/different that they have to ask about. Having said that, I often ask foreigners about their own country etc

I don't find it that strange and wouldn't be so upset I guess

I find the germans are more 'work is work and private life is privat life'.
I did have hard time getting used to that when I moved here, I was used to after work drinks with the girls, lunches out, shopping and manicures together, but that all stopped when I moved here. Its just a different culture.

I think it doesn't have anything to do with you being a foreigner. It probably depends on the office, some may also be friendly (not just polite) with each other, and do more than the absolutely necessary conversation, while some just keep it strictly professional.

The is an interesting aspect of the cultural difference of the Germans and the people in the rest of the whole. Just don't take it personal.

I'm sorry but you should see my face right now, you gave me my first bellylaugh this week. Not because I found the basis and tenet of the post funny, but just that last line got me for some reason.


Brilliant, thank you

Not many Germans are, for want of a better word, superficial, they reserve opinion until they've gotten to know someone better, before you'll get invited out for a drink or to someones housewarming. They're just like that. They don't want to superfluously invest emotional energy into building a friendship unless they think that it could be a worthy investment. Which is actually relatively sage: saves on mobile costs. I think.

Perhaps you should approach them first, stop playing goalie and take the metaphorical brown trout and slap 'em in the face with an offer of friendship. I can't imagine that your colleagues are completely disinterested, perhaps you need to have a housewarming and invite them all. Get to know them off-base as it were.

Failing that, I suggest taking them all hostage and demanding in a loud voice "Why? Why won't you tell me your names?".

No, don't, really. Have a housewarming.

I did not expect anything special/different. But when you are working with somebody you definitely mix little bit & chat about some general topics like Sports, music, about each others countries etc which I found very much missing and strange!!

Remember the old saying, familiarity can breed deceit. I like to remain cordial and treat my coworkers with dignity, integrity, and respect but I feel for me it's important to have a definitive line drawn between my professional and private life. I've come to learn that it works better for me this way.

If you miss the casual chit chat (and I do not think Germans like to smalltalk as much as, say, Americans), you could always just start it. Start a conversation about soccer or whatever, something that you think your co-workers will also care about.

Um, I thought familiarity breeds contempt?

Either way, salient consolation for the problem of uncommunicative coworkers.

Different folks, different strokes I guess. I've been in jobs here where they couldn't be arsed knowing anything about you apart from if you've completed that milestone on that project or not. Other places I had them ringing every ten minutes to go out and drink spuriously and get me to tell them about Irish women, a thing I know next to nothing about but bejayzus did I fill their collective heads with mad shite*.

You may be in the wrong job, but that's up to yourself.

EDIT: the shit job, well, really good job, but shit people, was full of Bavarians, and the worst kind: Der RECHTHABLER (I personally hate this blinkered, hateful, Hitlerjugend throwback of an aggravated anomaly). The really good job was a vibrant mix of people from all across the German-speaking spectrum, me - The Token Paddy (or Quotenire), an English lad and a completely hatstand Californian. The Luxembourgian chick with the Oak Feather up her bumtiddlyumtum didn't really count.

* I told one lad that Irish women have a special biological button in their clitoris that releases a hormone that spontaneously turns their hair red and at the point of no return, their heads too. That's why everyone thinks Irish women have red hair, because they live in darkness and are always horny. I still, to this day, believe that he thought I spoke the truth. And who knows? Gingers may just be special and happy Irish women masquerading as...I don't know how to finish this sentence. Let alone why I started it. Oh I know. X-Men 3.

Completely agree with LavenderRain.Mann..you just cant compare working in Asia against working here.Different ball game altogether . If you really wanted to get along with your colleagues you could´ve done more than sit next to them and hope you are spoken to. I fail to understand what you expect in terms of opinions . You´ve got to see things with different pair of lenses depending on where you are. They are a reserved lot so respect it. Earn their respect through your work and you will feel more satisfied or just go out drinking with them .Trust me after a few they will ask u everything about your country and even believe everything you say!

Don´t they say familiarity breeds contempt?

I say it´s a good thing they stop you so soon. I made the big mistake of thinking I had made friends at work. We had our coffee breaks together every day, we had lunch together every day, and I told them everything that was going on in my life. Like Carm, I was used to working and playing with the same group of people. Last job I had in the States, the whole group would eat together after our shift and everyone basically new everything about everyone´s personal lives, and we were friends. These people in Germany, I thought they were my friends, and after a couple of years I had the unpleasant experience of learning that, to them, I was only a work acquaintance. I really should have found TT sooner...I´ve been told it´s nothing personal, there´s just a different personality you put on at work to protect yourself. From what, I don´t know, but they don´t want to be personally vulnerable to work colleagues.

I am reading all your posts right away because I am taking the early morning flight to leave back to my country

A small addition to my question: Is it the same in the US or UK because I have never been there? I am Asian and worked extensively in Asia so new to Europe? or should I add new to Germany

I suppose this Culture module we're doing at Uni is worth something. You should really have read up on working in Germany before doing so.

Having known many Germans, I expect them to be just like this. It's definitely going to be hard for me as I'm half Welsh half Italian... so we'll get into bed with anyone (or sheep)... metaphorically speaking, of course

Of course not everyone is the same... but like a previous poster said I think Private Life stays private, but definitely try and break the ice yourself - ask a group out for dinner or bowling or something. It could be a laugh, because at the end of the day, the germans are still human

Stuff they love to talk about: their next vacation, and their health. I can´t listen to it anymore, but apparently it´s a shoo-in conversation starter with German colleagues.

hey, not all red heads are Irish!

This is true. My mom is a red head and not Irish...I am a redhead with some Irish...I think my mom either gets the red from the Welsh side or German side of her father, not sure...

You're all totally wrong. They don't get the redhead thingy from the Irish. They get it from the Genetikahrninjahr dude who, not unlike Santa Claus, spends our holidays scooting around the world sprinkling Ginger Dna into the Ether until there's enough gingers out there to make a World War feasible again. Mnnrr, gingers.

And Amber? Yer ma gets it from the chemist. Actually Ive way of corroborating that but for the sake of scratching the wrong lotto numbers - arsebiscuits.

Sorry. firecrotched arsebiscuits.

Actually, I'm going to bed before I actually offend someone.

Yeah, dude, go to bed before shit happens.

Shit Happens

We stop a wee bit short of the most graphic details of our sex lives but apart from that innit.
What IS with these kids thse days no but.

I too find germans at work extremely reserved and unfriendly. Ive been in my present company for over 3 years. The people I work with closely in my office and department are ok, yet still somewhat distanced compared to the average office in the UK. Eg they dont go out for drinks after work. I think in all the time Ive been there this has happened only twice.

Im starting to get some smiles and acknowledgement from people there, ie people that I dont work with from other departments, eg when I pass them in the corridor. Ive always smiled and said halle, guten morgen etc, but just got grunts and frowns, or just blank faces back, including from members of "management". Not a good way to encourage a team belonging attitude amongst the staff. After several months I finally more or less gave up and ignored people when I passed them in the building.

Coming back from the Far East, where people are all smiles and politeness, to face the office back in Germany on a monday, I looked around at all the sour miserable or just plain blank faces with hardly a sign of life and thought, what a miserable load of sods they are in this country!

Im sorry, but I think life - including work ,should be fun. Each day is a new day to live, the first day of the rest of your life and all that, just because you have to spend 7 or 8 hours or whatever at work does not mean you cannot smile and be happy. But in Germany - man geht in den Keller zu lachen (und auch nur mit Genehmigung)!

Yes, most Germans do have the 'work is work and home is none of your fucking business' mentality. At the office my colleagues and I have had a ball over the years, sneaking out early for beers frequently on sunny afternoons and often staying until the early hours. Discussions have been personal and irreverent and often very funny. As the company grows and recruits more BenQ/Siemens types, who don't have a personality between them, it's easy to see how the office atmosphere is changing. They don't seem able to converse at all, let alone make or understand a joke, the deadline is all ruling, the boss omnipotent. Sarcasm has them sprawling, it's freaking wonderful. It does seem that the individuals who make up the office do have an effect. Who'd have thought, eh?

That said, and despite knowing most of my colleagues for years I've been invited back to precious few homes of the Germans amongst them, one that I can think of. Not that that makes them bad people, just the way they are. Even if you invite them to your place the Hermanns will feel no obligation to reciprocate, so don't get your hopes up.

Jeez, I wish you guys were in DDORF. Good Night.

My workmates rock, great bunch, all very laid back drunkards/stoners/other things-ers and all a little spaz at times.

If someone said hall, good morning to me he'd get a grunt and a blank face too.
But otherwise a shower of whingers! Come to a foreign country and expect a red carpet to be laid out for you and everything to be just the way it is at home. Sad!

They dont want to know in case it may be better than Germany.

They are very inward looking and are not interested in other cultures as history has proved.

I have found exactly the same.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with my fellow workers and they always smile and say hello and ask what i did at the weekend.

Well I have 2 say that I am happy with my colleagues. They are very friendly, joke around all the time, and made me feel welcome since day one. I think is just where you work. But on the other hand, remember that Germans are very conservative people, even more so with the old ones.

Germans are this, Germans are that --- yadayadayada. If you treat them as a group expect to keep a distance. We have a good time, our share of pleasure and tribulations. It is all good. There is distance in any new place, but a smile in the eyes and taking the time to approach others is all it takes.
I'm just having a blast, and I've worked with Europeans in many of the "major" countries - drop the generalities, enjoy the individuals. There is so much to learn.

well said!

I agree with Ruthie, you almost cannot go wrong by talking about

-the next vacation
-which football team they support
-sports, health, exercise

I find Germans very helpful when you have a specific question. Ask a co-worker which markets or restaurants they like to visit. Then perhaps the conversation will lead to more personal things ...

funny, my coworkers ask me those things, as I get out an explore alot more than they do, they live in their little cocoons, going to the same restaurants with the same people.

at my first job, they had a hiring spurt, so the average age of new recruits was around 30, so we did quite a lot together outside the office. i'm still friends with the ones i got closest to.

now, I work at this large German software company and in my team the "youngest" person has already been around 6 or 7 years, after him 8, then 10 and upwards. if i don't go to lunch with them regularly, i get the "oh, you've got better plans". it's sarcastic, but it seems even though we never do anything outside of work, inside, we are expected to have lunch together and meet for coffee every day at 3 p.m. i have an americans regulars-table i go to on thursdays, which is in their opinions, an okay excuse, otherwise they're somewhat insulted.

i should also add, they all have families and kids and have no time after work to hang out with a single woman. the other two are in partnerships, so have to travel at least 45 min. to get home, which explains why they don't want to hang around. but to me it is very odd to have simply a working relationshp with these people. i spend more time with them than my own bf!

I find a lot of germans very curious. It´s often a right pain in the arse having to answer questions like: How long have you been here?, do you want to stay in Germany?, do you ever think about going back to England, where do you come from in England?, and so on and so forth. I´m quite happy when people don´t ask the same old questions for a change!

I mean, after 17 years it does get a bit tiring.

Well...I can tell you that I experienced exactly that in Sydney.Nobody ever aked me from where I am or why I came here.Back in Berlin it was different.We had lots of foreign people and went out with them and were more than collegues...I got frriends there.Here in Sydney is it different.You go to work and everyone goes home to their friends.Nobody cares for the private life behind work...So it could be just your collegues or perhaps they all had such bad experiences in DU that they changed :P Try Berlin!

I had a discussion about this, actually quite a few discussions, with my friends when I went home in April. I've worked at 3 different companies in my professional life, where I'm at now here in Munich is my 4th. I have 3 very close friends that I still communicate with on an almost daily basis even though I have been gone over 3 years...and 2 of them were colleagues. I always had the fortunate experience of working with great people in the U.S. and ended up spending alot of time with; going out on weekends or after work, Friday lunches, etc. My last company I worked for in the US still takes me out every time I come home from Germany. They make it a point that I can't come without visiting and going to lunch with everyone. I had a positive experience in Frankfurt but it was a very European office with only 20% Germans. I still speak with and get-together with my former boss from there who is Irish, very nice guy.

NOW I am in Munich in an office that is 95% German and I HATE it. I've described it to my friends back home this way; If you remember that first day of school, maybe a new high school or something, where no one knows each other. You're sitting there in the classroom on your first day, everyone is silent and you have that nervous feeling in the air, no one will look at each other, you try not to make eye contact… just waiting for the teacher to show up and break the ice. That’s how I feel at work every day. I used to try to talk but it was always a one-way conversation. I offered Friday lunch outings like I've always done at previous jobs.. a chance to go out and unwind with co-workers prior to the weekend. Nope. I might as well work in a morgue. So now I just put my headphones on when I show up and when I need to "talk" I visit TT. Guess you noticed I've been here alot lately

Every evening I go back to my apartment and fire up AIM/YIM and instantly get hello's from 6-10 former co-workers asking how my day was. Dorothy had it right, there is no place like home.

you can get that in any company, but it's true that it can be more a work is work culture in Germany, however I always found (honestly without a single exception) that when I was myself and approached people, talked personal with them, dragged them out for lunch or dinner or just a glass of wine post work etc. everything changed and we all became really close, I'm still in touch with all of the people I worked with during my time in Germany and am now going back to one of said companies in November. Honestly, try to break the ice yourself, some people of course are just crap and not to bother with, but there are always a few like minded people to be found everywhere...even if it's not obvious at first glance.

bah...let me be serious, here I have found that usually you have to make the first move. I tried for quite a while and found those germans who were more confident of their english to be more outgoing with me. the others would in fact reply when i send out some funny forwards to them via email but the same in spoken word would evoke no reaction...till i started to understand german a bit better.

Well I have to say I've NEVER had a problem anywhere I've worked until here. The only people I can talk to, that are friendly and can hold a conversation, are mostly NOT German (best of the bunch are Russian actually). There are 1 or 2 Germans in other departments that are cool and I often wish I can move to that group because I'd have a chance to actually spark up a friendship or two. Thankfully there are a couple Brits, Irish and Americans that I manage to find at lunchtime from time to time.

wow, it's like a near perfect description of my experience ... which I decided to get the f&§k out of.

anyway, a couple things to bear in mind:
- germany is not a mono-culture. It's pretty close, but it isn't. one big sub-culture difference I saw was the difference between the "professional office" culture (which is what you are now seeing), and the "young, hip, relaxed" culture. the two rarely mix - sometimes even the young hippsters will act cold and professional in the office, then get back to being cool and hip when they get back to their sub-culture. Think of it this way, german culture is changing, especially in regards to how they should regard the country's history.

- in the professional office culture, formality (and distance) is how respect is communicated, which sometimes feels like the near opposite of N.A. culture. I have yet to find a way to convince such ultra formal people that there is a way to say to a co-worker "hey, asshole" and have it convey respect, which it can. so, if you work with such people, ... get used to it.

- sometimes the "i'm here to work, then go home" thing can be nice compared to the office cultures in which everyone knows everyone else's personal business.

sorry, don't have time to add much more, but wanted to post that your experience is not unique. good luck.

Chicago, what la? how is Singapore?

Are there possibly only old people in your office? Sometimes if you're unlucky you can end up with a crap bunch for sure, thankfully I've been lucky with that.

I think the difference arshoo mentioned is definitely true, you have to make the first move over there..even push a little...but it also differs from city to city a bit and from company to company...what kind of industry, folk etc. etc. My experience has only been in similar environments albeit different companies and always in Frankfurt...

I for one rather like the separation of personal life and office life in Germany. I don't want to make friends at work, its not why I'm there. I don't want them knowing about what I may or may not do in my private life, and equally, I don't give a shit what they do with theirs. I don't want them asking me about my country, why I am here, or any questions atall really. You cannot give a straight answer to work colleagues anyway, you have to lie through your teeth, so why bother?
"So, how do you like Germany?" - WhaddamIgonnado? Tell the person what a complete joke I think his/her country is? Point out their laughably inefficient social security system? Mention that I prefer countries with more sandwich options than just salami and gherkin? No, its more polite to lie and say how fucking "schon" I think this dump is.
If I have free time enough to engage in idle banter with some prat in a suit, then I am better off not talking to the aforementioned prat, and simply using that couple of minutes of time to go home a couple of minutes earlier. Sorted.
The absolutely ridiculous practise here of people still calling colleagues "herr xxx" even after working together for years on end - that annoys me, yes, but generally the personal distance is quite nice.
Some bloke here wants to buy me a beer for helping him out with some shit. Now, you might all think I'd be well up for free beer, but frankly, I will not be taking him up on that offer. I could list loads and loads of people just on TT that I have not had a beer with for ages and ages and ages - you think I'm gonna find the time for a bloody work colleague? Not a hope in hell mate.

If something is gonna bother you about German colleagues, it should be the fact that they are all sucked up in a jobsworth, responsibility-shirking blame-culture; not the fact that they don't all get together with you and go out to "play hard" after work on a friday. I once had an interview, where one of the questions was "do you like curry? because we all go out together after work on a thursday for a curry". I said I did not feel that I was really suited to the company, and left the interview. Being forced to spend time with work people? In your own time? No way.

I worked at one place, where they were very VERY into employees being happy and satisfied etc etc. They wanted everone to get along better on a personal level, because it maintained the family feel of what once was a family business. What did they do?
1 - Set up a social club that did stuff like restaurants, theatres, go karting paintballing etc. Then they subsidised the social club, paying for 50% of the event, whatever it was, to give people an incentive to join.
2 - Set up weekly lunches at a restaurant, with one person from each department/function going along on a rotation basis. The idea was to get people from different depts more acquainted with each other. The lunches were of course paid for.

I did not join the social club, no way, but of course I went to lunch. It was free, and more importantly, it was in OFFICE HOURS. It did not usurp upon my time. Thats as far as my social friendly side at work can manage to go. Free lunch, in office hours. No more.

If you are so unlucky to only get unapproachable people in your department - try looking in other departments. Meet people at the coffee machine.

Or maybe even try to 'target' those who are just starting to work in the company. That way you can break the ice with them and make them feel welcome by offering to show them around or something.

It's always harder to get into an established group than forming your own new group.

I hate the phrase 'familiarity breeds contempt'.
I established a very good relationship with a consultant once (we are still friends). My manager asked me to stop being friends with him because he felt it was inappropriate for the work that we were doing. In actual fact, my friend was bending over backwards to help meet our deadlines because of our friendship. Needless to say, that manager didn't last long...

As for workmates in Germany. I have been in Munich for a year now. I work with a great bunch of people. This bunch includes Bavarians, other Germans and lots of other nationalities. I have even found a few friends in the bunch. It wasn't easy from day one - it did require some effort on my part. But it was all worth it!!!

from the 2 years i have worked in england, i have only made 1 real friend. all my other (english) friends are from university or through hobbies or friends. english work colleagues were very nice and would go for a pint with you but there would be a fine line between work and private.

When I worked in London, I did find it hard to make any British friends. I mean I had my fam already there but apart from that, I would meet and socialize with French, Italian, Romanian, etc. but no Brits. Here in Munich its the total opposite! Few German friends and a large number of British, Irish, and so on. Weird!

What on earth?

Why would anyone want to do that? If you want to meet people and make friends, how about doing that in your own time, and with people that you might have something more in common with than "we work in the same building".

Why do people feel the need to make friends at work? Fine, be friendly to people if you so wish, but do people really actively look to make friends? Madness.

A previous post made a good point - mentioning a colleague that was 'bending over backwards' to help meet deadlines, due to a friendship. This is another good reason to NEVER make friends at work, it'll come and bite you in the arse one day when a "mate" wants you to do shit for him. Fuck that.

Germans always seem so shocked at how the small staff that I have are all like a family. We laugh and chatter... it makes being at work a nice place to be. Yes , like a family we sometimes get angry at one another or at a situation but like family. we bounce back. I have an employee wo was out for surgery. The employee told me one thing but I guessed the surgery was something other than what was claimed. I privately and in a nice manner suggested , "Come on , we know each other , didnt you have ..." and mentioned the kind of surgery I thought it may have been.
OOPS Off like a chinese rocket. so I left her alone for a while and she never admitted what I know to be true but she is fine once again. I was asking simply because I know that this surgery requires some very ,very strict dieting after it. Since we are constantly eating , trading recipes etc I was trying to get things going in a direction that would help this employee and save her some embarrassing moments.

I cant imagine working is such a formal atmosphere. Admittedly we " formal up" when an important client is around but we still are not german office formal .