Problem landlords and rental deposit returns

hello,

i'd be very grateful for any advice on how to deal with my landlord...

i've been living in a wohngemeinschaft with 5 other people (2 friends, 3 others) for the last year. the 3 of us are moving out on tuesday, and have been trying to get information off our landlord regarding the return of our deposits. our landlord has told us that it will take 6-12 months for him to check everything out and return the deposit...however we're all students and can't afford to let that amount of money go. is it normal for german landlords to take that long, or does he just want to keep our money sitting in a high interest bank account for a bit longer? (he's the tightest cheapskate i've ever met)

the other problem is that he won't be coming to the flat before we leave, so we can't discuss any problems with him face to face. or in any other way for that matter. we've tried contacting him by email, but he ignores them. we've tried ringing, but have been hung up on as soon as he hears something which he doesn't want to. how should we find out exactly what we are expected to do before we leave? for example, the only problem in my room is that one of the white walls is pretty dirty. it was like that when i moved in, yes, its a palace, but i have a feeling that when we leave, the landlord will try and (over)charge me for the painting of the walls. if he's going to do that, i'd rather paint the wall myself with a tin of cheap whitewash but he won't come round to look at the rooms, let alone talk to us.

can anyone help??

thankyou!

Thanks to changes in the law, he cannot charge you.

New Redecoration Laws

As for the rest, do you have a hausmeister? If so, get them to come and inspect the apartment and sign a form saying the condition of the place is ok. I get the feeling the Landlord is waiting for you to move out then will mysteriously come up with a list of things that were wrong and take them out of your deposits.


I think the laws are the same over here as they are in the UK. Legally this money is not his, so any interest earned belongs to you. Not too sure on this

just keep hold of your keys when you leave. very useful bargaining tool.

Ive just been sorting out moving out of my place, and the landlord says ill get my deposit back straight away!

cheers everyone. we found the flats through the mitwohnzentrale, do you think they'll be able to help, or are these places just there to help you find the flat in the first place?

info about the interest is interesting ta...although hold out zero hope on that one if we can't even get to the end of a phone call...

I heard somewhere that the norm is 3 months for the depositto be refunded.

i would say definitely get in touch with the mitwohncentrale, even if they can't help you out with this fecker, they won'T put his property on their books again...

i was living in nurnberg a few years ago in a mitwohncentrale arranged place and they frequently mediated between us and our psychotic land lady...

He's obviously trying to take the piss.

Check these guys out: Mieterschutz

As Noddy said, your first pot of call should be the Mitwohnzentrale. Another option if you know where he lives (his address should be on your rental contract) would be to go round and see him mob-handed. He'll have a hard time ignoring 5 of you on his doorstep. If its an apartment block ring someone else's doorbell to get into the building (just say "Schlüßel vergessen" or something if they ask). cos' I doubt he'll be inclined to let you in.Unfortunately only really a viable option if he lives in or near Munich though.

Turn your attention to these pages:

http://www.mieterverein-muenchen.de/tenants/engl_info.htm
http://www.mieterverein-muenchen.de/
http://www.mieterverein-muenchen.de/mietre...echtsthemen.htm

When I was here previously, the landlady did not give me my deposit back. The place was clean and her friend was happy when she saw it on the last day of my stay.

However I had to leave the country and when the landlady looked at it herself she started to compain about the mess etc. She said she will give me only 300 euros out of 1350.

Has anyone been in a similar situation that could give me some advice.

Well I rarely get deposits back, because me and my flatmates have ALWAYS done more damage than what the deposit is worth.

Best bet is to consider it an expense, and get your moneys worth of wear and tear out of the place.

Consider it an expense? Bollocks!!

Dont know if there is much you can do now. But really when handing the keys back, u should get them to sign a handovor protocol saying they are happy with the apartment. That way they cant legally take any money from your deposit.

they will do it and see if they can get away with it - thinking you will not follow it up.
tell them you will come back to the apartment and demolish it and you know which school their children go to, etc.
alternatively have some albanian or turkish friends present then they will not try and pull a fast one as germans tend to have real fear of these people.

Good luck, but the stories I've heard aren't good (but I don't think this is just true for Germany, though I thought they'd be really good about it given how they won't even break the rules to cross an empty street).

Indeed when I left San Francisco my Russian friends who work in and other "businesses" told me that these sort of things might happen... and that if it did they'd be thrilled to visit for some beers and to "take care of the matter"... and I know they'd get any deposit back plus a "penalty fee".

All I can say is sometimes it's nice to have some "unusual" friends.

Of course you can do something about it, you could take them to court. A thousand Euros is a lot of money, it might be worth investigating. However, I would recommend joining the Munich Mietverein for future cases, as being a member of them not only entitles you to free advice about rental law, but in case you do have to go to court vs. your landlord regarding your flat, you are provided a lawyer for free by the Mietverein. Probably too late for this occasion, but good to know for the future. If you want, PM and I'll recommend you.

Very important:

get your suite checked with caretaker (Hausmeister) when you move in - write EVERYTHING down and you and caretaker sign this move-in report...

do the same when moving out...if you have black on white that everything is ok with the suite - they cannot charge you for anything. If you didn´t sign anything by move-in or move-out - they can charge you for anything they want...

Last January I signed a lease for an unrenovated apartment with cheap rent. When I signed the lease, they promised new windows would be put in by the time I moved in and they were.

They also promised to pay for my renovation materials which they reneged on. Now they are trying to raise the rent on me already with the excuse of the cost of the new windows.

I know this isn't legal, but how to go about fighting them? Does anyone know which is the best Mietverein (Renter's association) or lawyer's specializing in this sort of thing?

Thread merged by admin.

yeah, 3 Lions is right. He has to put it in a bank account on which you and him have access after the rental has finished and he doesn't show any official complaint.
All intrest is yours.

Yes it is. Major improvements and renovations can be added to the rent, spread out over 10 years or so.


That paper isn't worth all that much, and the landlord can easily refuse to sign that thing. Even if he does sign it that still means you can be held responsible for damage that wasn't obvious when you moved out.

Someone I know drilled holes into the chimney for example, which is a big no-no since it soon caused water to move into the wall and start some evil mold. Had to pay the damage even after he had moved out which serves him right since he's an architect and should have known better.

well,
My ex landlord is trying to make me pay for 40m² of Parket flooring when only 6in² was not up to standard..
estimate 6-8000,00 €

AND he did not open a joint, hi interest account...

Ho hum

And you can refuse to give him the keys till he does. There is no reason why they shouldnt want to, unless of course they want to charge you for something.

Of course the guy who drilled in to the chimney should have to pay as it caused major damage. What we are talking here is when Landlords say they are happy with apartments when you leave, then mysteriously take a couple of hundered yoyo's from your deposit to clean it?

I've never tried it but a friend of mine said when he gives notice (usually 1-2 months) on any apartments he rents he stops paying the rent.

That way the landloard only has half or one third of his deposit when he moves out.
The landloard chases the rent but doesn't do much about it cos he's moving out anyway and he's willing to give up the rest of the deposit if he can't get it back.

Not so sure about his solution, might be worth a try if you know you've got a 'dodgy' landloard

I want to move a little way back into town next summer. After 3 years in Schwabing, 2 years in Großhadern is a bit of a culture shock. However, when I moved out of my previous drum I got badly turned over by the renter - Heinrich Bossert Immobilien (watch out for these mafiosi). The whole sorry event started when I had moved but was still paying rent during the notice period. I was using this time to redecorate so that there would be no problems and I wouldn't loose any of the deposit (I am English - home decorating is second-nature). Because of my work I was decorating every Saturday for 4 weeks. On the third Saturday I unlocked the front door to find a workman pulling out the bathroom and kitchen... that I had just redecorated the weekend before, and in the process destroying other redecoration with his mess. I discovered that he had been instructed by Bossert to go in and do this, and had my spare key that I usually left with the Hausmeister. The Hausmeister was a lovely little old lady who had been pushed into a corner. So I got the key back, sought legal advice and avoided the frantic calls from Bossert until the last possible day I could hand all the keys back. The workman's tools remained in the flat during this time and I didn't attempt to put right all the damage he had done. My legal advice was shite (I believe) and I lost half the deposit. Now I am seriously considering joining the Mieterverein. My current landlord is Bavarian, and they don't have a good track record with me on this issue (or with any other financial matter - shake a Bavarian's hand and count your fingers afterwards).

Question: Is there a service in Munich where a guy turns up, gives you a quotation to put the place right, does the decorating work and, gets the landlord to sign a legally binding document to guarantee that you will get your Kaution back?

Sin

Thread merged by admin.

Mieterverein Website

Hiya, can´t really answer your question but perhaps you should join the Mieterverein and ask them...it may not be too late.
I have been a member for about 4 years, think it´s only 55€ a year and it´s well worth it. I´ve roughly had about one case a year with them...one of which involved them taking the Hausverwaltung to court on my behalf.
Last year my present landlord wanted to increase our rent...I went to the MV, they did a Mietspiegel and wrote and told my landlord he should actually reduce the rent!

Good luck with your problem.

Cheers Moonboot,

If it's only €55,- it is defo worth it

Sin

Sin,
If you have not given permission and agreed that the guy does anything to the flat while you are still paying rent, then you do not have to pay for the "restoration".

Thats what happened to me a few years ago, but luckily enough the girlfriend knew a good lawyer who advised me on what to do.

Definitely agree with Moonboot about the Mieterverein. They are really friendly and if your landlord-German isn't up to scratch, they are very patient. I've used them serveral times in the last few years, and each time they've saved me a fortune. I've also discovered that merely mentioning to your landlord that you've got an appointment with them does the trick. By all accounts there's some sort of "blacklist" of landlords who've repeatedly been reported, which no one wants to be on. You can start using them a week or so after joining.

We recently moved out of a flat in Augsburg in favour of munich.
( very good move )
The landlord was, I think, perhaps the most analy retentive person I have ever met. On the day I moved in, instead of just giving me the keys, he gave me a room by room inch by inch tour of the house which included making me watch whilst he changed the toilet seats, oiled the door hinges ( all of them ), took the insides out the taps to de calcify them ( really, no joke ) waxed the staircase, and the doors, and the window frames, made a little red mark with an indelible marker at all the scratches etc etc ad nausium, In the end he was there for 4 hours before he finally left. Needless to say when we moved out, we hired a cleaning firm and also did the taps and the doors etc.

Despite checking the flat with us on our moving out ( for 2 hours ) he has now decided that despite it actually being in better condition than when we moved in, he is keeping our deposit.

I would have a look at your rent contract, if it says Basinrein, brush clean that is really all it is.

He basically does not have a leg to stand on since we took photos before and after. I would advise everyone to do that.

I will let you know of the outcome.

Hello,
I am facing a problem with my land lord reagrding my caution deposit.
I have vacated the apartment handing over the keys to the land owner. At the time of receiving the keys the land owner examined the house properly and said everything is fine. He also said that the cleaning has to be once again which is mandatory and a custom in Germany for which he will deduct apprx 100 to 200 euros and the remaining money will be sent to my account. I happily agreed and come back. After 3 weeks continuous calls he was telling that still estimation has to be done for the cleaning costs. Finally he has written mail in which he says 1750 euro will be deducted from the deposit for various things which is not at all true. As this is huge money I would like to go to lawyer regarding this. May anyone of you can suggest some thing? Any suggestions, guidance please feel free to post.

Regards
Ashoka

Topics merged by admin

Do a search here for "Miterverein", they can square you away. Prob. cheaper than a lawyer too..

@darknight,

Thanks, I have contacted the mietverein and they have done a fantastic job of puting the wind up our landlord, in fact he paid up, six months late, but he paid up.

Would recommend them anytime.

Hi there,

I lived in the same apartment here for 5 years. I have been away from Munich for the better part of a year, and have now returned. I realised that my former landlord had still not paid out my Kaution from the apartment I vacated "im renovierten Zustand" last year. There was no problem whatsoever upon the handover.

I wrote a letter reminding him that payment is well and truly due. He replied, saying that they "had to" renovate the apartment, and that they have set off the Sanierungskosten against the Kaution and that in fact I owe HIM money. This is just ridiculous, as the apartment was returned in exactly the same condition as that in which it was when I moved in.

I had a very bad relationship with this guy, and even once caught him entering the partment without my permission. I think he is just hoping I am a stupid foreigner who wil disappear, but I definitely want the money back, as it is a substantial sum.

This is a boring question I know, but does anyone have any tips on how to proceed? Is the Amtsgericht enough, or do I need to get a lawyer?

Thanks a lot.

Topics merged by admin

Do you have a signed protocol of the handover (signed and dated by both of you). ?

Yes, I do have the protocol. He didn't come to the handover himself, he sent his lawyer instead. I really don't see how he can possibly have a leg to stand on, but the whole thing is just such a hassle.

Hi All,

I am in a total fix, so am asking most reliable source for help / information.

I moved into an apartment in December 2004 and am vacting now. We in terms had 2 months notice, so I gave that and am vacating house.

During my stay, due to use / wear and tear, the electric owen is stained. Usually whenever something fell on that, i used to clean it with cloth, but due to repeated use / repeated soiling, it is stained.

I tried to clean it, but it doesn't go completely, I am sure, if I try hard again, it will go.

But today I was supposed to give my keys back, when she came to collect, she said that house is dirty, i said okay get it cleaned and I will pay for cleaning, she said the lady will come and will charge 10€/ hour and it would take minimum 4 hours, I said no worries, take 50€.

Then she said electric owen too is spoiled, i said they are just stains and can be removed. She said she will try to remove them, but if they don't go, she will buy a new one and will deduct it from my Kaution!!!

I was shocked, just for little soiling of owen, she said she will charge cost of new, and then she said I can take the old one with me. I argued..., pleaded... but all in vain.

She said she will try and then let me know.

I even said, give me few hours, I will get it cleaned / clean it, she denied and said my time is gone. I said, you can take one more day rent and then come tomorrow, she denied that too. I even argued by saying that you can buy a new top plate for that (is it possible?), she said NO, she will see and let me know. She then just gave me a couple of days to find a new one for her, else she will buy and cut the money from Deposit!!!

She then called some of her friend, who took all pictures of house, and she too said to me that i need to buy a new one for her...

Dammnn it!!!

What should I do?? Can she legally ask me to buy a new one for her?? Can she deduct kaution for that?? Can I threten her that I will consult a lawyer?? If she says YES, then what??

By the way, the functioning of owen is PERFECT.

Also, I do agree that house was cleaned but little parts were not completely clean, but that is why am giving 50€ for getting it cleaned!!!

What should I do?? All suggestions are welcome?

Regards,
Bhupesh Gahrotra

Topics merged by admin

She can no longer do that shit. Go to the mietverein tomorrow. Normal wear and tear is now the law and the owners are now responsible for all the extras that they used to plonk onto the renters. I am sure if you look on TT you will find the relevant passages posted. I even posted an English translation of it some time back.

http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index...lite=mietverein
See if this works.

And here: http://www.toytowngermany.com/munich/apart...ation_laws.html

Thanks for the info.

But do these people charge? I mean what all necessary formalities i need to do to go to them?

I found the link and read the website information.

Sounds good. But what I feel is that my question is still different, the Owen got soiled due to my usage? Does it still cover?

Regards,
Bhupesh Gahrotra

A stain on an owen or an oven does not require a new one to be bought. She is being a bitch about this and most likely only because she thinks she can con you. I would threaten her with legal action and remove any offer of helping to pay for a professional cleaning service (which would be her or a friend of hers at most anyway).

Eurovol is right. She's trying to take advantage of you because you're a foreigner. Just stand your ground and tell her you have done some investigating and discovered that she can't do what she's trying to do. Tell her if she isn't satisfied with the state of the apartment and the oven that you will pay for a cleaning service and anything more than that she can go f**k herself. Good luck!

I said her that I have found out and she is charging me unnecessarily, she then said it's useless to talk to me and we should talk via our lawyers and anyways she is insured...

I said, I will get it cleaned, she said I don't have keys and she won't allow me to come in her apartment again. I said I will get somebody who can clean it. She said she will think.

I tried to argue more, then she even abused me...

Damn it... I will consult Mietverien people. Let's see.

Any other inputs are always welcome.

Regards,
Bhupesh Gahrotra

See this: Any suggestions?, can she ask me to buy a new one?



Regards,
Bhupesh Gahrotra

She's full of shit - that's nuthin - 5 mins tops

I don't think she can ask you to buy a new one, but she can ask you to get it clean. I wouldn't accept that as wear and tear either. The picture of the grill you sent me is also something that can be cleaned.

Do I need some professional help or as showem offered her help would do? But I want that it should be completely cleaned and she should not argue again after that?

Jesus, after reading about all this hassle, I think I'll just stay put in my grubby little wohnheim as long as possible. I was thinking of bailing out but now i think that its definately much less stress...

If that's just just starch or mineral deposits from pots that have boiled over it'll come off with a bit of essig essence or hob cleaner. She's taking the piss.

yeup, antikal is what you want...



pour it on, wait five minutes, wipe it off. Job's a good'un

If the mess is directly on the burner itself, it can be hard to get the stuff off. But this looks to be easy...from my experience anyways...just use the Ceramic/Glass cleaner or the Antical.

@bhupeshis

Trouble with the Vermieter.. man, everytime I had to move(6 times already in Germany alone) I ended having to use the services of a lawyer. I don't think you'll get past getting yourself one. It is, of course, bollocks what she is saying. Even if she threatens you with having an insurance, you must remember that her insurance will not just happily refund her the money for dodgy business like that. She is just threatening you and probably doing it with all her other Mieter. Stop being nice to her, this will not work with her. She wants your money and that's it. As far as I know you have to be a member of the Mietverein for them to help you. Signing up for a year doesn't set you back by much. I am not sure whether they have a waiting period, you must go see them immediately. I use to be a member of the Mietverein in Berlin, but found their lawyers to be unmotivated and lacking interest. I got myself a Rechtschutzversicherung and have used private lawyers since.

The amount you have to pay for a lawyer is fixed by law, it is a max. of a certain percentage of the value of the total sum which is being disputed. It won't be a lot in your case, chances are though that you will have trouble finding a lawyer in Munich willing to take such a tiny case. Maybe someone on the forum could recommend one? I have not needed one in Munich. Yet. Also, keep in mind that every party has to pay his or her own lawyer in Mietrecht. Even if you lose your case, you will not have to pay for her lawyer. She knows this as well and will also know that her Rechtschutzversicherung will increase her Selbstbeteiligung (deterrent fee) if she just sues people left, right and center. So in a dodgy case she is bound to lose and is playing the "threatening an unknowing Asian foreigner"-card, thinking most likely that you are so sh*t scared that you will just give in. Also keep in mind that she probably has a friend or family member as a lawyer who will help her. Vermieter always does.

Do keep us informed, get a lawyer who writes her a nice letter and maybe with that your problems will be solved already.