A right way to tell the kids and ex-wife

Hi,

I recently had a recent break-up with a superduper person. This was at least partially precipitated by my ongoing avoidance of conflict, and not wanting to hurt my kids, and actually, not wanting to hurt my ex. (There were various reasons for the breakup, but one of them I would like to address in this forum, possibly to get some advice from those more experienced than me.)

In the mornings, I go over and pick up and take one of the muffins to school everyday so I see both kids and their mom every day. It is nice with the daughter, but there are layers of denial and deceipt not being completely open, or just not sharing all facets of life with all people in life, like a superduper person.

My reluctance to be forthcoming kind of stems from really bad handling of the divorce when my parents cut it, and so here I am in the same scenario, not wanting to hurt the kids, and I guess the ex.

This developed into my girlfriend being hurt in silence to the point that she simply (justifiably) bailed after a long period of being patient and waiting for me to act on the situation.

Anyway, to avoid another "super girlfriend that the ex doesn't know about" stupid, only half-enjoyable scenario, can someone please tell me how you normal people out there go about this, not hurt the kids, not cause severe damage all around, etc.?

We are still married on paper, and this is beneficial for taxes and insurance, but this has suddenly lost any implicit value. (It is a state of big denial. We last were really together in 99. And you thought your denial was huge, please don't use my superlative example to measure yourself.)

Please be gentle, I am still kind of trying to figure this all out, and get over it.

Thanks

Do your kids know that you and their mum are never getting back together? If they do then sooner or later they are going to see you with other people.

Just don't lie about who she is though (eg this is dads friend) as judging from the way my mum/ dad handled this I would definatly say that out in open way worked better and hurt less.

My dad liked to tell us 'oh this is a friend of mine coming to stay for a week' Kids aren't stupid and will pick up on anything like that really fast and feel left out and disrepected.And if they get upset about it they can vent to you properly without having to go through that themselves knowing what's happening but not being able to talk about it.

How to tell your ex- better she finds out from you than seeing you together in town or something. Depending on your current relationship she will either be hurt, or happy for you. But at least she will know what's going on, and you will keep the partner you want.

Get a divorce. It will be difficult and costly but the closure is necessary.

Logically the tax benefit (and I know that it is substantial) should be worth it but it really isn't because no one (you, your ex, your kids and your new love) really get the closure they need. You're going to have to do it at some point so why not get it over and done with and move on with your life.

I hermetically sealed the girlfriend from the kids. Big mistake. Was trying to not hurt the kids and TOTALLY missed the more than obvious fact that I would be hurting the girlfriend. Place me at the senitivity level of a caveman. Anyway, it's over. But thanks amillion for your guys' sraightforwardness. If someone wants to slop on their advice or take or perspective please feel free.

Take care

Hi

I really feel for you, not because I have been in your situation but because it just seems so painful and you have gone to amazing lengths to maintain a good relationship with your ex and children. You should congratulate yourself on that.

You know that you need to deal with the situation now for fear of losing another fab relationship. Be confident - you have demonstrated that you are sensitive and caring and I am sure that you will find a way to sensitively handle this current situation.

All I can do is wish you luck, it might be tough but you will come through it and most likely with a smile on your face.

Take care and good luck.
Kereth

Obviously its wrong to introduce a quick fling to the kids, because assuming they like her, they'll be upset when you break up.

But assuming its a reasonable relationship, then you have to introduce the kids. You've understood the bit about hurting the girlfriend, but also the kids will understand you're hiding something, won't they think you're either ashamed of her or worse ashamed of them?

I dunno about that...my mom dated for a few years when I was 7-11 or so. She didn't bring every guy home to meet us (I have a brother 3 years older), but we met a fair few. She wanted our approval or she'd dump them damn quick.

...worked out great...

You can be a good parent while having a romantic partner other than their mother as long as the status of the relationships are clear. If you still have ambiguous feelings/actions toward the ex while pursuing a new one, the result will be dissatisfaction and confusion for all parties involved. I don't blame your gf for taking off, if you won't officially divorce from your wife it sends a message to potential girlfriends that you're not entirely available and that a future with you is unlikely.

I thought that went without saying...but I guess someone had to say it just to make sure.

Dear Tomasino,
You say you were last together with your wife back in 99, so I'm guessing your kids are at least 9, possibly older? They're of an age when they can easily feel rejected by not having things explained to them, or not having the whole truth told. I bet they've also seen loads of other kids at school/at the football club/wherever in similar situations. It's an important way of letting your kids know how much they mean to you, by sharing with them the things you love. This may be a passion for music, you may be a fanatic follower of a certain football club etc etc - but it most certainly includes letting them see you with people other than their mother, ie your friends and most particularly your really special girlfriend. At the same time it has to be clear for all concerned that she's never going to "replace" their mother, but could and should end up being a really good friend to them, too.
Do not just spring this on your ex, though! I think she has a right to know who's going to be spending time with her children, and you need to make sure she's not harbouring secret hopes you might be getting back together after all. You want her to be happy for you, not resentful! And maybe knowing you are serious about another woman will give her the "freedom" to fall for another man??!?

I find it unbelievable that people stay married "for tax reasons". If you hadn't been married before would you marry your ex now for tax reasons? If you get along well then the divorce doesn't have to be nasty or expensive. The studies quoted in "The Good Divorce" show that this is more than feasable.

Kids will deal with you having a new relationship. Kids are generally smarter than people give them credit for.

Geezus. I think this the first time I have ever cried reading a Toytown Post. Thanks Kereth. You have no idea the relief of someone sharing a drop of empathy in this situation. My ex is very sensitive, but there is a point where someone in my shoes should just let it go and not take responsibility for that. I have stupidly died three deaths in the past due to this quagmire, and this last one, days ago, dwarfs the others by comparison. Hugely blown it. This will never happen again. It's time to put on the grace and diplomacy cape and change my life. Will keep you posted. And will try to be dilligent. (What's it like for all of you people to just go date freely?)

Many thanks guys.

Has your WOP (wife on paper) been a non-dating hermit since 99? Whats the deal there?

Yes. With all due respect, but to clarify the situation, there have been one or two dates, not for lack of her wanting to have a date.

So tell me, would you also feel sorry for this person?

I strongly recommend honesty, complete and open. Kids resent being hoodwinked more than anything else, and nixing the girlfriend - well you see where that got you.
You are insofar lucky as you are still friends with your w-o-p, that's where you start out with your kids: Your Ma and I are still friends and we will never stop being parents, but like you have had various friends in your short lives I have met a woman who is a different kind of friend from your mother. She is sharing my life, and as you are important parts of my life she would like to meet you. Thank you for your time.
sb

I dont have any exes on paper so Im shooting in the dark here but hows about having this conversation with the wife. Tell her you dont want either of you to be alone for the rest of your respective lives and you want to set the ground rules together sooner rather than later. I think consistency at both houses would be important?

RE: Nixxing the girlfriend.

You know, at first I was wishing it were two weeks ago, that there would be a moment when I could say something different while we were still together. But I really and actually realized that I wish it were two years ago, so that I could have acted differently the whole time, and not just at the end as a stupid reaction.

She must have really liked me, because she put up with so much crap and alienation (albeit more or less in silence, but I still take the blame.)

Everyone go out and have a nice, sunny day. There is a life to be lived and smart steps to take in it. Don't follow mine.

This thread is all about the right way to do this.

I have spoken with the ex on three occasions in the last few days, and been way more forthcoming than ever (um, never) before.
Options have been discussed. No draconic methods.
I just wanted to know if I had done it right. What TT people would say. And now how to tell the kids.

It is a little hostile (for lack of a better word), and I am here for refueling and brainstorming.

The long denied ground rules are now being established.

More details as they occur.

Do you still love this girl? Do you want to be with her? If the answer is yes to both, then get going - clarify the situation with your WOP (yes, maybe she's sensitive, but she really be carrying the torch still almost 8 years later? - if so, time to get things out in the open). So, put the wheels in motion and get a divorce. Stop procrastinating and do it. (I am not being harsh here, just realistic). If not, you will jeopardize the next relationship and the next and the next until you do.

Then, once you have set the wheels in motion, fight for the ex girlfriend because she is probaly wishing that things were different too (maybe I'm talking outta my ass here). Before you start mourning the death of the last relationship, figure out if it is truly dead.

Kudos to you for being the sensitive guy now get out there and be the smart and sensitive guy!

The details from before:

Talk about going forward, about legal separation, divorce, benefits, etc.

Much, much more needs to be sorted out. I can't believe I will probably get a divorce, but it is a reality...

And the flowers are still standing.

Sweetheart, my parents got divorced 44 years ago when I was about 3. Last year when my Dad was dying my Ma spent lots of time with him and his wife cooking his favorite food. Divorce doesn't have to mean that the other person is as dead to you.

Definitely! I doubt your ex-girlfriend forgot she loved you within a few days. If you move quickly, get this divorce into motion, show her that you can actually take action, then you might still have a chance at fixing things.

A divorce costs money, but think of all the emotional benefits that cannot be outweighed with money, it will be well worth it!

I agree. Especially in your case that you have been separated for 8 years. You will only be physically signing papers that your hearts have signed a long time ago.

Can't help but think of all of those 80's movies here (think Cant Buy me Love, Pretty Woman, etc), were the guy has to do something drastic, stupid, self depreciating and humorous (to the viewer) to get the girl. I know this isn't a movie and I know it will never be that easy, but there may be a lesson to be learned there. If the girlfriend is worth it, then you have to go balls to the wall. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt, but fuck man (and I speak from experience) regret of trying is much harder to swallow than complete failure. So get your ass off the computer, get some flowers, swallow your pride, show this woman that you are ready to do what it takes to work this out.

Good luck man, we all hope not to hear form you for a few days (in a good way, meaning you are fixing your life up.)

A few days later... Um, it's a process. No plot solved within 60 minutes here.

Anyway, there are lots of dimensions involved. I was kind of also under the gun to restart my career having been unemployed for what seemed centuries. So the insecurity of wanting to perform well and shine and be secure in a job weighed into the time-management factor severely (as in, destroyed it). Also, I am no saint. time management had always been an obstacle. It's very good sometimes, but...ok, now I am getting this therapy session vibe. This is going to need some serious attention to change. So I won't be running after someone with flowers right now. One has to have the normal goods to deliver. This will be a process.

But interesting things happened on the bikeride today. Not me but my soul just blurted out a question finally where I asked daughter if her parents should have BFs and GFs and she said, "No, then you would be divorced." Then I asked her: "So do do you think we match?" And she said: "No!" Then I told her, "So how do you think it should be?" And she said: " I don't know, happy!" Whereupon I told her: "Ok."

Later I scolded the daughter for not putting on her helmet, and that her mom would get mad at me if she found out and the son said: "You should only care about (daughter) and you shouldn't care about if mom gets mad at you!" I think I'll hang around the kids and learn a few things.

By the way, you TT people totally rule.
Peace (in progress)

You have smart kids, be proud of them.

Talk and words were greatly appreciated then and now. Thanks guys.

The deal now is that there will probably always be two parallel stories playing out.

One I choose not to go public on, but the other one, let's just say having been much more open with the ex has caused a psychological break where I am fighting and really have to play hardball to see my kids now. It's an alone feeling, but not lonely. It is kind of like an extended funeral regarding the relationship with the ex.

With story 1, there are enough people in the tiny village that is Vienna who regularly browse this forum, even seeking my name, so I have chosen to just bail on getting enlightenment on the active, building part of my life.

Got a lot of my personal administration crud sorted out now (it was a big clutter), have clean and clear thinking, and am writing again (to aspire to my life goal), and am looking forward to life on the other side of the wall (where I now find myself). There is probably a lawyer's registered letter in my near future, but this should have been coming a long time ago. Sometimes people hang on for no apparent or beneficial reason. You can love and care for your ex, but the reality is that when in this situation you should wake up each day and tell yourself that it didn't work out all of those years and prayers ago back then and so it would never work out, and life is to be had and enjoyed and lived now and in the future.

My heart goes out to that iansiobhan or whatever dude, it seemed like he got sorted out too.

Peace and very appreciative thoughts to people who joined in at the heat of the moment.

All the best,

T

Also keep in mind that you want to be a good example to your children -- an example of a person who pursues and achieves happiness, including in romantic love.

Hi guys,

Well, the next chapter happened and I eventually lost possibly that girl of my dreams (the reason I know she might be so is loosely based on a list I was trying to compose).

Anyway, I made some dumb moves and didn't communicate well (and I don't think it was entirely my fault), and the most beautiful, shiny, sparkly, fish found its way overboard.

But to be completely true to the title of this thread about telling the kids and ex-wife, the fact is I told them many times in indirect ways, before, but on a trip to the States in August, on a kind of group trip, with kids (cool) and ex (strange) along, talk was incredibly open with my ex, my expectations and who I am. It was utterly a catharsis. Thoughts and statements came off the chest like a warm, easy exhale in a hot, moist desert - a big relief.

I spoke newly and openly about the GF at the time, and the obviousness of the feelings I had made it quite evident that a divorce was long overdo (separation came into the discussion, then was nixxed because of the realization that that arrangement would yet again drag the whole thing out.

The son (12) is now totally good with the whole romantic possibility for me scheme (in fact he said I really should - imagine that after my protecting him from any hurt that I went through back then in his position.) I think I have aptly and appropriately established myself now as a father who is cool and supportive and OK not being together with his mom, and I really feel such a groovy support coming from him for me to move on. Spending so much time with him did wonders for the son-father bonding. Halleluia.

Anyway, that unshackling took place, all of my five brothers and sisters were good about telling me how they felt, and things are worked out. There was a great buzz folks!

In the middle of the trip, the so-called "ironing out things tour 2007", I got a Dear Tomasino email, (as in discovering one's state of being single) but that was probably long overdue, because in retrospect, there were other issues not having been dealt with, so many good intentions and deeds misunderstood, I took a shitload for granted, and mainly good communication needed a serious organ transplant, which always takes two people. I have decided one person is never to blame in bad communication. It is always two people. Also, I think bad communication is a huge thing when it exists, but I think good communication requires very basic elements: simple routine, habit, discipline, and time. All things which I suck at.

Annyhoo, the last month has seen elation as well as huge loss (um, understatement), but I am pretty happy that life will change, guilt will no longer be my master (actually it isn't anymore), I have become way more spiritual (that's right, guys, I pray, but I still cuss - I think I do this to keep the religious people away), have quelled my seemingly teenage reactionary behaviour to some degree, and I am not under the bondage of my ex's schedule (this plays out very different now on the phone, I love these "planning" phone calls - Geez I love life now, it's truly awesome - I would post an MP3 of a phone call, but the teenage thingy...).

So the reality check comes and I have to deal with some practicalities: I am an American in Austria.
The Blue/Orange parties more recently phased out the permanent visas and had them expire with your passport, or so I am told.

Mine expires next year. So, there is a chain of events that needs to take place:
I will get a new passport (now), get a new Aufenhaltsgenehmigung (now + a few days), put my ex in the American green card raffle, and then we will have a mediator come and discuss terms of divorce, and hopefully by Halloween I will go as Rick James (or Austin Powers).

It's funny that so much relief and happiness is based on how soon one can get passport photos.

Good luck Tomasino, whatever life throws at you.

Hey tomito,

From one conflict avoider to another, sounds like you want to make everything ok for everyone. And it is not working, dear. I'm sure you sometimes hear a little voice in your head, hey "I got it right, this is good, they feel good about me." Need to retrain that voice, to say "Hey, I was honest, that was transparent, and I spoke up"

It also sounds like things are picking up, cheers and good luck. But really speak out early.

Oh, and tell your kids but don't ask them for advice.

Best of luck

Good luck!

Thanks for the wishes, guys. As stated before, you all rule.

Geezus hoe lee fak, the process is only starting.

I had a session with an advisor/mentor about the process, emotions and legal aspects today and it was awesome as much as it was exhausting.
Found out about lawyers, as well as the exact reason why I protected my kids so much. Carrying tons of hidden baggage (still) and, yes, it is embarrassing to cry in front of an adult, complete stranger.

More news later. (Gawd I want the whole process to be behind me, but in fact, the spiritual aspect is definitely past. Gaining energy, life is good.)

Other people entering life are a great source of balance and normality (and guiding the rudder on the right course).

More later. Peace.