Short-term car ownership

I've been thinking a lot about getting a car while I'm here in Munich. Should I go without, rent one once a month, buy a used one, or what? I'm open to opinions, and here's what I've been thinking and wondering about lately. About a week ago, I read "Value of second-hand cars in Germany," and have been searching mobile.de and autoscout24.de ever since.

I'm in Germany on a 12 month contract, presumably to return to the US March 2008. I think I'd like to have a car. Due to some extensive relocation travel, cost, shipping, I won't be able to actually buy a car until at least mid April, just assume May 1st? So, that's 10 months of having a car in Germany. So, I was thinking I could find something that would last 10 months that might cost from 500€ to 1500€. Hopefully I could get a little of that back by selling it before I leave.

So, we have some sort of residency visa in processing, and I have questions about my drivers license, insurance, and registration.

I have an Arizona (US) Drivers licence, and I read about the "Validity of Foreign Driving Licences on muenchen.de" where it says:


To me, that sounds like as long as I leave the country (and I guess have my passport stamped to prove it?) at least one time every 6 months, I won't need to get a German drivers licence for my 10 months of driving. Does that sound right? This is the "Living in Germany" part, not the visiting part... They do make a distinction.

So, assuming that is ok, I'd need to get the car registered somehow. I have no idea what the costs for this would be on some ~1000€ 10 year old VW Golf (or similar). Is it like 5€, 50€, 500€, 5000€? Can anyone at least give me a ballpark number?

I have read "Car registration and registration plates", "Red number plates?" and "Buying and selling a used car as non-EU citizens, Advice on getting a car for a few months", which all are useful on their indivual topics, but I still have questions. The last thread of the three of these Toytown Germany threads mentions:

So, for my 10 months, a "red plate" seems a bit excessive. But, if I cut it down to 9 months, that's only 2 renewals, and it makes it sound possible. Any thoughts on that?

So, assuming I get a car, I get the licence figured out, and I get the registration figured out, I'd need to get some sort of insurance. I have no idea what the costs for 10 months of insurance are, is it like 5€, 50€, 500€, 5000€? Is the above mentioned "temporary ADAC" insurance the best route? Can anyone at least give me a ballpark number?

Have you looked into any car sharing companies? I know of Stadtteilauto, though I haven't used them myself. I think it would be less hassle, and a better quality of car than buying one outright for just 10 months. A couple friends of mine use the car sharing services, and they think it's the bee's knees.

Yes, I have, they are simple flat rate... but if you use it often or for long periods a regular car rental is about the same price or cheaper. They are ideal if you use a car for 2 hours a week, they are not ideal if you use the car 2-3 days a week for "road trips" or exploring Europe like I am hoping to do while I'm here. For me, a regular car rental for 2-3 days at a time, 1-3 times a month seems a cheaper option.

Think about it. If you take a 5 day hire on a class 2 vehicle from Stattauto and drive 1000km they charge you €100 rental and €200 kilometer charge (20 cents per kilometre), less 25% on the rental for such a long trip, so is €275 in total. This includes fuel and full insurance. Using Sixt as an example you can rent a VW Polo (their smallest) for €212 on the standard rate for a 5-day hire, plus full insurance (€12/day) plus fuel (reckon on around €100 for a 1000km trip), totalling €372, just short of €100 more.

Leaping in and out of Germany does not get you inside the license issue. Your residency begins with your registration in Germany. Unless you de-register when you leave the country and stay away more than 3 months, then you must get a local license within 6 months of that original registration.

I guess, but your math seems to be different than mine. I did it two weeks ago Thursday night. At about 6PM on Thursday night, I went "hey, let's go to Bolzano Sunday and see what's there" and my wife had a shopping list and wanted to go out shopping Saturday. So we decided on renting a car for the weekend.

We rented a SixT polo class car (actually a Peugeot 207) the weekend before last, it was 107€ total, and I put had to put 49.80€ in fuel, and drove about 700km. The weekend deal is pickup after noon on Friday and return before noon on Monday, so it's a 3 day rental.

According to the Stattauto calculator that would have cost me 170€ (more money) for a Daihatsu Cuore (not as nice car). Plus, isn't there a membership fee or something? And/or, don't you have to take like 1/2 a day off work or something to go do the signup process for it?

So, either way it's around 150€ for a weekend. 4 weekends, and I'm up to 600€, and I've seen some 15 year old VW Golf's could buy for that much. Say we only did it once a month, that's 10 months, 1500€. I could easily see renting 15 to 20 times in 10 months if we just did it every time would like to get in the car and go somewhere. But even for only 10x, at 1500€, it seems we could buy a car, but I don't know how much more license, insurance, etc will cost (reason I asked here).

Statauto = less hassle.

Buying car, license, ins, selling car at end = whole lotta hassle.

Sounds like alot of work IMHO, besides doesn't is say you work? How much driving do you expect to be doing? And we musn't forget Germany's phenomenal train system!!

Using the Stattauto calculator and your Class 1 car example, collecting at 6pm Friday, returning at 8am Monday I calculate a total of €148, so it would in fact be comparable. Don't forget that Stattauto calculate to the hour and don't charge between midnight and 8am, so the calculation here is 2 full days plus 6 hours on Friday, which I presume makes my difference. I agree that the Class 1 car is not comparable to the Polo. Their Class 2 car (Corsa) would have been closer, but a little more expensive at €174

The point about Stattauto is peace of mind and no surprises. Convenient pickup and drop off locations, always near to U-/S-Bahns, FULL insurance cover (most rental deals add extra for full cover), ski or bicycle racks, children's seats, winter tyres and snow chains in winter and fuel costs covered in the price. You can't normally rent a car for couple of hours to go shopping. but with Stattauto you can. There is a €7/month membership charge (less if a group of you join together), but once you have taken the time to sign up there are few formalities. No waiting at the check-in/check-out desk, no forms to sign and no credit card deposits to cover. Pricing is fair - the less you drive the less you pay. If you'd taken a Stattauto car as a runabout for the weekend and only driven 100km, you'd have paid only €72, so quite a bit less than a rental.

Running your own car is more than just fuel and insurance. There are taxes, maintenance, breakdown and depreciation too. The older the car the cheaper it's going to be but the more major any repairs you are likely to have to cough up for. You pay for the convenience of having wheels outside your house ready to roll at any time.

I would get over your obsession with "road trips" and learn to use the train. Usually much cheaper (see Schönes Wochenende Ticket) and always much more relaxing.

Plus, with the train, you can drink all day...though last time I did that a nun sat across from me after my 5th or so.

Don't you like sharing?

Uhm, it was financial, not an obsession, but I'll have to check on this again. I looked at train tickets (for two) to things that would be normal weekend or 3 day weekend trips (Amsterdam, Milano, Venezia), and they seemed more expensive than car rentals.

It didn't seem like it'd take long to add up to the price of a car (and then I would get to use it for simple things like grocery shopping, which is a pain when walking 10 minutes each way).

So far, everyone seems to think car ownership is a really bad thing? Doesn't anyone on TT think a car is worth owning?

Tickets are usually cheaper if you book in advance, and if you make more than a handful of trips each year then a Bahncard becomes worthwhile. There are also good offers on the night trains: around Europe from €29 each way, €39 in a couchette.

Well, it was a friend of mine visiting from the states and I, so I was already sharing...but well, we only had enough for ourselves, really.
We brought certain amounts based on the time we'd be on the train...and we don't want to rely on the warm beers they try to sell you on the train...

Short term lease from an independent dealership. That is the only way to go. And guess what, you can bargain with them. Be sure to bargain one thing though, replacement auto!!!

I will check into that... My fear with a lease is, I drive, A LOT, just to go sometimes. Leases have millage limits and big penalties for going over, don't they? Any recommendations about independent dealers that do short term leases around Munich?

Also, still no comments from anyone on ballpark costs of licensing and insuring a 1000 Euro used car, any ideas what this will cost?

At the end of the day a lease is simply a financial deal - a loan. You borrow the capital outlay for the car (or capital less deposit) and pay some or all of it off up to the residual value when you sell it, plus interest accrued. Interest levels may vary between companies, and whether they estimate depreciation by mileage or age, along with the make, model and age of the car and it's rate of depreciation. The downside for Joe Public is that on top of the repayment you also have to add 19% VAT which makes leasing expensive for anyone except a business or self-employed person who can reclaim the 19% and offset the monthly rate on his income taxes. Interest rates and therefore monthly costs are better on new cars than used as the manufacturers sponsor the loan to get the sale. Determining the residual value at the outset is key. A high residual value will reduce the monthly payments with the very real risk that the car will drop below the value when you return it any you may have a lump sum to pay to make it up, especially if you don't take care of the vehicle. Leasing is also risky in that ANY damage, no matter how small (even small scratches or bumps) may be charged for on return. Only "fair wear and tear" is accepted, which can often be subjective. Many people who lease get into a big argument which can turn nasty when a car is returned at the end of the contract. Dealers don't do leases, but act as agents for financial institutions and often earn commision from doing so, so it is often a better idea to go to an independent financial service yourself, or even your bank. You WILL need a positive SCHUFA (credit) reference. They are not going to let you run away with a €10,000 vehicle without evidence that you are not a credit risk. If (or rather as) you are new here, it may be that only your bank will provide the finance as only they can visibly see your income. It's often a condition of leasing that your take FULL insurance with low deductible and that your car is repaired or serviced by approved dealers, which makes the whole package more expensive.

It's not just the value of the car that prices the insurance. To get any quote or estimate then the insurance company needs to know the make, model, age, value, engine size, engine power, deductible you would accept, certified evidence of your insurance record or lack of it, where you live, where the car is parked, how many kilometres you drive a year, how old you are, your profession, your age, your nationality, who else will drive it and of course what level of insurance you require. All these parameters are processed into a complex formula to estimate the insurance risk and therefore cost.

"Licensing" or rather vehicle taxes are easier, in that they are a fixed cost per year per 100 cubic centimetres of engine capacity, although the fixed cost is related to type of engine and certified emission standard.

Thanks for the info, I realize you're trying to help...

I fear I'm victim of a moderator topic change again. I know what leases are about (have had them before in the US). It all comes down to price. I've never seen a 10 month lease, and I would worry about the miles I put on, so until I talk to a dealer and get a price, it's somewhat meaningless. What I asked specifically was about cost of insurance and registration, and the validity of a foreign drivers license. I wasn't asking how to get a car, what a lease is, or what a car is... So far the replies have been very evasive about the costs of ownership, very little mention of costs.

Yes, I understand it's not a simple fixed number and requires a lot of details. However, isn't it possible to get some idea about this from someone? I mean, I know I have no driving history in Germany, a foreign license, if I get a German licence it will be new, so I'm probably a high risk factor. I know the car will likely be similar to a 15 year old VW Golf for 1000 Euro. I know I won't be driving it to and from work, but probably 2000 km or more a month just on weekend trips...

Given that, can the cost be narrowed down some? At the moment, I don't have a clue... I would guess, even though it's a complex calculation as you say, it's not going to be under 5 Euro a year... Maybe not under 50 Euro? Would it be over 5000 Euro? Can't we zone in here just a little bit? I mean, if it's 50,000 Euro for a 1,000 Euro car for a year, it's pointless to consider... But if it were that high, I don't think I'd see as many cars on the road as I do now, so general guessing just based on the number of cars I do see on the road tells me it's probably under 10,000 Euro a year... And since it's not a third-world country, I'm guessing it's probably more than 5 Euro a year...

I'm not asking for a down to the penny insurance quote, or a guarantee that my registration will be within a dollar of anyones guesses here... But if someone could throw me a bone here, anyone in a similar situation must have some idea what they are paying... is it 100 Euro? Is it 900 Euro? Is it 99,999,999 Euro?

How long do you plan on being in Germany?

Uhm, see the first post in the topic?

K, I got a PM, someone gave me an IDEA based on what they pay... Small 1000 Euro vehicle might be somewhere AROUND 100 Euro per year for registration, and 500 Euro per year for bear minimum insurance costs...

That gives me at least an idea... I can PROBABLY plan on the (other than purchase and fuel) costs to be between 300 and 1200 Euro, maybe closer to 700-800 Euro because insurance for me is likely to be higher than him.

A car is worth owning only if the trips you need to make cannot be done any other way except with your own vehicle.

Besides all the costs, inusrance, tax, depreciation, time spent doing registration, maintenance, parking, if you do have a car you tend to use it more than if you had to carefully consider each journey and then organise a car specifically for that journey. Still if you place value on being able to just get into your own car and go at the drop of a hat then go for it.

The problem isn't that we don't want to have to plan, the problem is either getting to places that aren't close to the S-Bahn, no way to get large items, or quantities home on a train and then walking home, nor do we have the option of asking someone to take us somewhere.

Yes... The Great Microwave Popcorn Quest is beyond value!

Buy a motorcycle, man, get you to the popcorn faster and back to your microwave in two shakes.

Yea! Not to mention, parking would be way easier... I wanted to, but my wife won't let me... Just sold one and still have one in the US. Wife says if we have only one vehicle, it can't be a bike though, not enough room for her groceries...

What's this "wife won't let me" crap? Get over it B. And MY GROCERIES? You eat them too you fool.

Pah, groceries. Not groceries make Jedi, motorised two wheel transport make Jedi.

Seems to me you are still being a bloody American. For what you appear to need a careful combination of taxi, rental car and Stattauto according to needs at the time will be much cheaper, and far less hassle. It would also help to avoid future postings such as "I checked all of TT but need to know how to insure my car", "I checked all of TT but don't know where to buy the best fuel", "I checked all of TT and can't find out what a TÜV is, but the nice German policeman said I needed it", und so weiter...

This could get interesting.

Sorry, tuned you out after the first sentence there... Or would you prefer an insulting reply as well? The English and cars don't belong together, I'm fairly sure the information wasn't useful anyway...

I wasn't insulting you, merely stating a commonly held view.

OK, let's look at some numbers. Ami-baiting is getting boring.

If you need a car for 10-12 months but are planning on some longer trips it makes no sense to buy a €1000 banger. It'll be sure to let you down and/or be expensive to repair. Go for a reasonable, common, reliable small car. You should be able to get a 1.8l 9-10 year old 1.8litre petrol Golf in reasonable condition with TÜV for around €5000. Advantage of a small, common, German car like this is partly reliability in general, and partly ease of repair, service options and parts.

It'll cost you:

• Approx €100 to register it when you buy and de-register when you sell
• €500 for basic insurance, assuming you are older than 25 can prove 3-4 years claim free driving (even in US) and only you/your partner drive (Haftpflichversicheriung/SF3)
• €120 for ADAC cover - you'll need this to be sure you get you and the car home if it does fail you at home or abroad
• You'll pay around €272 for car tax (basis: Euro 1 emission group, 1800cc x €1.513/10cc)
• Service and repairs. Difficult to estimate, as it depends on the car, but you really need to estimate around €1000 which will cover at least one service, a few minor repairs and maybe a couple of tyres. It might be more if you need winter tyres, if they don't come with the car.
• Depreciation. Also difficult to estimate, but let's assume you can sell the car a year later with an extra 15000km on the clock for €4000. Note it might now be close to TÜV time, which might mean you need to spend €200 or so to get it through the bi-annual test to get a half-decent price at all.

Total expenditure €2992

Now let's look at the alternative. You already experienced a weekend car-hire. Total cost for that was around €110 plus fuel. Let's leave fuel out of this equation as you need to buy it whether you take a rental car or use your own. Your own (older, less efficient) car might actually use more fuel per km than a new rental car, but let's ignore that for the time being. Let's assume you rent a car for 20 weekends of the year so total cost is 20 x €110 = €2200. No additional costs in this case. Let's also assume you need to get out up to twice a week, on average for short trips or shopping. Taxi would seem the best bet. Let's assume 2 return trips per week at €15 per journey, and that you do that for 30 weeks during your stay. Total taxi costs are then 2 x €15 x 2 x 30 = €1800. Don't forget - you'll also have rental car available for 20 Friday evenings and Saturdays if you don't drive far away.
Total rental car + taxi cost is therefore €4000

So, you are about €1000 better off with your own car. You also have more flexibility. BUT you have more of a risk. If you total it you lose all the money. If you buy a bad example of a car you may have a lot more repair, servicing or tyre costs. You're foreign and naieve. You could easily get taken to the cleaners by the local repair shop and waste €500 on work you don't need. Quite simply, it's a BIG risk. With the rental/taxi solution you always have a better car to drive and no worries. Do you like air-conditioning in summer? - then rent a car with it. Got 2 large American friends visiting? Rent a larger car. Going down town to get slaughtered? Take a taxi. No parking or parking ticket worries.

Of course, if I've under (or over) estimated your usage, the figures might be quite different, but they can't be far out.

Now, back to sarcasm and hyperbole

I am waiting... (with the same order of bluedave's popcorn)

Stop taunting me with the popcorn!!! I can't take it... I HAVE to get some tomorrow...

While humming the tune of the The Anacreontic Song I presume...

Hmm... I found this bike and it looks pretty decent for the money. Almost strikes me as something is wrong, too new for that cheap, something must be wrong?


Ok, the bike won't get OUR groceries.


English drinking song? I don't know what that means...

Get a rucksac and you can get all the groceries you need unless you like bringing home sides of beef.

That bike price is a mistake.

Buying a decent car below 2000€ is gonna be difficult because of the new "Gewährleistungsrecht".Cheap cars have become very rare bc of this law, and the ones being offered are usually sold without any warranty, which means you'll be scammed by being sold a polished piece of junk.Either buy a more expensive car and choose one that has a high reselling value or rent one instead.